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Free Money From ATM - is it really free?

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    #32
    Toots
    Administrators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,919 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Toots


    It's also worth noting that if this is a result of human error in loading the machines, it's the ATM official who's going to get the blame. And they're not going to be some rich fat cat banker, they'll in all likelihood be a young bank official who earns pretty crap wages and who'll probably get in a lot of trouble if it turns out they did make a mistake.


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    #33
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    It's dodgy to go back to the same ATM to do it as it's plain to see you intended for the mistake to happen again.

    May I ask what the breakdown of the €180 you got from the ATM was? The error sounds different to having the wrong notes loaded.

    The talk of stealing is somewhat scurillous, at least if the extra money from the ATM happened just once. I don't think a bank would be accused of robbery by the gardaí if less cash was dispensed than was nominally withdrawn.

    I think they'll come after you for it though as you withdrew from it more than once.


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    #34
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    dotsman wrote: »
    :confused:

    No need to be confused - they were the excuses given by the banks when they came on bended knee and asked the taxpayer to bail them out.


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    #35
    stepbar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,123 ✭✭✭stepbar


    parsi wrote: »
    No need to be confused - they were the excuses given by the banks when they came on bended knee and asked the taxpayer to bail them out.

    Come on Parsi, there's a difference between a guarentee and a bailout..... :rolleyes:


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    #36
    johndaman66
    Registered Users Posts: 4,097 ✭✭✭johndaman66


    Take the money and run is what I say. It is stealing but when we are on the subject its not as if the Irish banks don't steal.


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    #37
    dotsman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    parsi wrote: »
    No need to be confused - they were the excuses given by the banks when they came on bended knee and asked the taxpayer to bail them out.

    What banks? In Ireland? You must know something no-one else does!

    There hasn't been any bailouts in Ireland. The Irish banks have so far managed fine. Due to the International Credit Crunch, made worse by our own deteriorating economy, the banks will need to recapitalise (some banks more than others). When this comes, it will come through a combination of private investment, and government investment (which will be looking to make a serious profit fro the pension reserve fund). To date, the banks have not received 1 cent from the taxpayer. In fact it is the opposite - the banks are giving money to the taxpayer for the guarantee.

    Please know (or at least pretend to!) what you are talking about before you go making foolish posts like that.


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    #38
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    stepbar wrote: »
    Come on Parsi, there's a difference between a guarentee and a bailout..... :rolleyes:


    ....bailout is on the way.


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    #39
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    nlgbbbblth wrote: »
    No it won't go on their credit history but it can be noted on their file. Or some staff member will remember it.

    You'd be surprised how good someone's memory can be when it comes to recalling unscrupulous pricks who take advantage of honest mistakes.

    ...hence my comment about changing banks. Easily done.


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    #40
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    pseudonym1 wrote: »
    In my case I had to repeatedly explain the error made by banks no apology and no interest was paid.

    Banks have done as they pleased and been ripping us off for years. I don't veiw it as the same as stealing.

    Actually if I ever fullfill my dream and pull off a heist on a bank - I probably wouldn't veiw that as stealing .. I DON'T LIKE BANKS.

    OP I don't know wheather you should take the risk all by yourself - post up on boards where the ATM is :)

    We seem to have quite a few bank apologists in out midst, so it is good to see someone who has had to make a request more than once for an error to be corrected. This is more common than those apologists will have you believe.


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    #41
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    dotsman wrote: »
    Actually, they are very quick as soon as the error is discovered. They also apologise and pay interest on the amount. Also, and importantly, they do not intentionaly overcharge you. However, in this case, you are intentionally stealing from them.

    Not always the case, and your comment about interest is also surprising.

    So asking an ATM for €80 and getting €100 is intentionally stealing? Puh-lease.


    dotsman wrote: »
    As for the thief's (:rolleyes:) credit history. It's very simple. If they can find who the thieves are, they will deduct the money from the thieves' accounts. Now, if your balance doesn't cover the amount you stole (remember, this could be a couple days or a couple weeks after you stole the money), then you go into an unauthorised overdraft. At the least this attracts surcharge interest as well as possibly other penalties. Failure to pay this, will result in your credit history being affected.

    In this case, the bank would write to the customer. The customer would usually have a timeframe with which to check they have enough to meet it or lodge enough if necessary.


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    #42
    jaffa20
    Registered Users Posts: 4,532 ✭✭✭jaffa20


    You can arrange with the bank to repay it on your terms. i.e you can say, "i'll pay 5 euro per month as it's all i can afford". They have to agree with you and it doesn't matter how much you owe them, it can be 10euro or 1million because you could have spent it for all they know if you don't have an account with them.


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    #43
    dotsman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    kaiser sauze wrote: »
    Not always the case, and your comment about interest is also surprising.

    So asking an ATM for €80 and getting €100 is intentionally stealing? Puh-lease.
    No, it's stealing if you intentionally go to a broken ATM that you know will dispense too much money. It's also stealing if you don't return the extra €20. Likewise, if a shop/bank short changed you intentionally, you would freak. If a shop/bank accidentally short changed you, but then discovered this and made no attempt to refund you, then again it would be stealing.

    A person crosses the line into theft the moment they decide to keep the money (that they know doesn't belong to them, and they also know who it does belong to and have a method of returning the money).

    kaiser sauze wrote: »
    In this case, the bank would write to the customer. The customer would usually have a timeframe with which to check they have enough to meet it or lodge enough if necessary.

    Trust me, if a bank is writing to you about you being in arrears, you are not having a good day.

    P.S. A thief is a thief and stealing is stealing. It doesn't matter if you are stealing from a crippled orphan or from a large corporation. I am actually disappointed in the number of people here who actually condone this theft. What kind of people are you?

    jaffa20 wrote: »
    You can arrange with the bank to repay it on your terms. i.e you can say, "i'll pay 5 euro per month as it's all i can afford". They have to agree with you and it doesn't matter how much you owe them, it can be 10euro or 1million because you could have spent it for all they know if you don't have an account with them.
    If you're going to make stuff up, please include that warning in your post, because somebody might read that and construe it as actual sound advice instead of the ridiculous BS that it is.

    If you owe the bank money, they can demand repayment at any time. Obviously, out of goodwill they would probably give you a short time frame, but they would not be dictated to by the thief.


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    #44
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    dotsman wrote: »
    Trust me, if a bank is writing to you about you being in arrears, you are not having a good day.

    Woah!

    When did we start talking about arrears?


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    #45
    jaffa20
    Registered Users Posts: 4,532 ✭✭✭jaffa20


    dotsman wrote: »


    If you're going to make stuff up, please include that warning in your post, because somebody might read that and construe it as actual sound advice instead of the ridiculous BS that it is.

    If you owe the bank money, they can demand repayment at any time. Obviously, out of goodwill they would probably give you a short time frame, but they would not be dictated to by the thief.

    Don't patronise me. I know what i am talking about. If the error was on their side, you have the right to arrange a repayment method. They cannot take the money of you in one lump sum unless you have an account with them and the funds are available, otherwise, you may have spent the money. You are still a customer even though it is a bank.

    So,if a bank makes an error in a transaction then it is up to you to negotiate the terms with them.


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    #46
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    jaffa20 wrote: »
    Don't patronise me, i know what i am talking about. If the error was on their side, you have the right to arrange a repayment method, they cannot take the money of you in one lump sum as you may have spent it. You are still a customer even though it is a bank. Stop saying the word thief. If a bank makes an error in a transaction then it is up to you to negotiate the terms with them.

    + 1

    [is that your second one tonight? :p]


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    #47
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    op you will probably get caught and you deserve to get caught. the fact you say its apparently random and not happening everytime will make it harder and longer for them to find you out but they can still do it.

    if you get away with it great but you probably wont. not alot will happen they will just take the correct amount from your account assuming the funds are available if they re not then you will have a certain amount of time to pay them back before further action is taken.

    my mother used to work in a bank so this is slightly old info but i very much doubt its changed much.

    edit; it is stealing, would i do it if thought i was going to get away with it? maybe, would i be bothered with the hassle knowing you wont get away with it....probably not


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    #48
    dotsman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    kaiser sauze wrote: »
    Woah!

    When did we start talking about arrears?

    See below. The money taken from the atm will eventually be taken from your account. If you have insufficient funds, you are into an unauthorised overdraft.
    kaiser sauze wrote: »
    dotsman wrote: »
    As for the thief's credit history. It's very simple. If they can find who the thieves are, they will deduct the money from the thieves' accounts. Now, if your balance doesn't cover the amount you stole (remember, this could be a couple days or a couple weeks after you stole the money), then you go into an unauthorised overdraft. At the least this attracts surcharge interest as well as possibly other penalties. Failure to pay this, will result in your credit history being affected.

    In this case, the bank would write to the customer. The customer would usually have a timeframe with which to check they have enough to meet it or lodge enough if necessary.


    jaffa20 wrote: »
    Don't patronise me. I know what i am talking about. If the error was on their side, you have the right to arrange a repayment method. They cannot take the money of you in one lump sum unless you have an account with them and the funds are available, otherwise, you may have spent the money. You are still a customer even though it is a bank.

    So,if a bank makes an error in a transaction then it is up to you to negotiate the terms with them.
    If you steal €100 from the bank, they will want it back. They will not tolerate some fool offering €5 per month. The interest, surcharge interest and penalties accrued each month alone wouldn't be covered by the fiver. Yes, they made the original error. But it is the thief who committed the criminal act. As I said, they would give you a short timeframe to repay.

    Why are people here trying to justify it and make it out like it's their right to steal? Both morally and legally, anyone who steals is in the wrong. As said earlier, the moment the stealing is being done is the moment the customer decides to keep the money they know is not rightfully theirs.


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    #49
    BankMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 143 ✭✭BankMan


    If the bank who operates the ATM is not the bank where you have your current account, they wont be debiting you at all - no access.


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    #50
    jaffa20
    Registered Users Posts: 4,532 ✭✭✭jaffa20


    dotsman wrote: »




    If you steal €100 from the bank, they will want it back. They will not tolerate some fool offering €5 per month. The interest, surcharge interest and penalties accrued each month alone wouldn't be covered by the fiver. Yes, they made the original error. But it is the thief who committed the criminal act. As I said, they would give you a short timeframe to repay.

    Why are people here trying to justify it and make it out like it's their right to steal? Both morally and legally, anyone who steals is in the wrong. As said earlier, the moment the stealing is being done is the moment the customer decides to keep the money they know is not rightfully theirs.

    Please get of your high horse. Basing your "facts" on moral grounds doesn't work. I'm not condoning stealing.

    I'm making the point that if the bank or their employees make a mistake on a transaction, it is the customer who decides how that is to be repaid unless the bank reverses the transaction if there is available funds. That is what i know so please don't argue against it with your "stealing" argument.

    Your signature says it all, just because you think you're right doesn't mean you actually are.


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    #51
    BankMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 143 ✭✭BankMan


    Dotsman, your talking ****e. The bank cannot insist on immediate repayment on their terms, due to the absence of a credit agreement. You seem to be under the impression that banks are all powerful, mighty entities that can make whatever demands they see fit. I don't condone unscrupulous individuals taking advantage of an obvious error, but lets keep it in perspective.


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    #52
    dotsman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    BankMan wrote: »
    If the bank who operates the ATM is not the bank where you have your current account, they wont be debiting you at all - no access.

    Of course they have access. If the customer was given €100, then the bank treats that as a withdrawal of €100. Let's say you are a BOI customer using an Ulster Bank ATM. When you withdraw money from the Ulster Bank ATM, Ulster bank claim that money back from BOI. In this case, the Ulster bank would simply treat it as a €100 withdrawal even if the customer only requested €80.
    BankMan wrote: »
    Dotsman, your talking ****e. The bank cannot insist on immediate repayment on their terms, due to the absence of a credit agreement. You seem to be under the impression that banks are all powerful, mighty entities that can make whatever demands they see fit. I don't condone unscrupulous individuals taking advantage of an obvious error, but lets keep it in perspective.
    But using the example above, the €100 is taken from the customer's BOI account. If the account has insufficient funds, then it goes into an unauthorised Overdraft. The terms of the account as agreed by BOI and the customer would dictate what occurs next. There would be no "I'll pay €5 a month" as suggested above.

    Ultimately, as already said, this is simply treated as a withdrawal of the amount given, not the amount requested. Now given that the ATM was originally in error, the bank may, at their discretion, write off the loss, or allow the customer a certain time limit. But techically, the bank has every right to deduct the full amount immediately from your account.


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    #53
    stepbar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,123 ✭✭✭stepbar


    kaiser sauze wrote: »
    ....bailout is on the way.

    Indeed....
    kaiser sauze wrote: »
    ...hence my comment about changing banks. Easily done.

    I'd like to see you try and leave a few hundred euro of a debt without further action being taken.
    jaffa20 wrote: »
    Don't patronise me. I know what i am talking about. If the error was on their side, you have the right to arrange a repayment method. They cannot take the money of you in one lump sum unless you have an account with them and the funds are available, otherwise, you may have spent the money. You are still a customer even though it is a bank.

    So,if a bank makes an error in a transaction then it is up to you to negotiate the terms with them.

    Of course the bank will be reasonable if you play ball with them. A loan or an authorised overdraft facility maybe arranged. Don't be under any illusion that they wouldn't leave you with out a current account (not that that would bother some folk).
    BankMan wrote: »
    Dotsman, your talking ****e. The bank cannot insist on immediate repayment on their terms, due to the absence of a credit agreement. You seem to be under the impression that banks are all powerful, mighty entities that can make whatever demands they see fit. I don't condone unscrupulous individuals taking advantage of an obvious error, but lets keep it in perspective.

    No they can't but they are well entitled to pursue you with legal action.


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    #54
    Overature
    Registered Users Posts: 908 ✭✭✭Overature


    take out all your money, 90 at a time and then close it, so they cant take it away from ye


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    #55
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    dotsman wrote: »
    See below. The money taken from the atm will eventually be taken from your account. If you have insufficient funds, you are into an unauthorised overdraft.

    You still haven't justified how you ended up talking about "arrears".

    They will write to the customer first and give them a chance to rectify the situation. [Stated this several posts ago, repeating it just to be sure you seen it]

    This all assumes the customer is found out.


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    #56
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    stepbar wrote: »


    I'd like to see you try and leave a few hundred euro of a debt without further action being taken.

    You are making the large assumption that this will be found out.


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    #57
    dioltas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,183 ✭✭✭dioltas


    Same happened to a friend of mine a few years back. He got 300 instead of 150 or something. In the end the extra 150 was taken from his account.


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    #58
    BankMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 143 ✭✭BankMan


    Dotsman - everything in your last post is factually incorrect. For the good of the thread there's no point in getting into a long running argument about it, but i'd encourage you to check your facts.


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    #59
    dotsman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    kaiser sauze wrote: »
    You still haven't justified how you ended up talking about "arrears".

    They will write to the customer first and give them a chance to rectify the situation. [Stated this several posts ago, repeating it just to be sure you seen it]
    OK, very simple. When the money is taken from the customer's account, IF they do not have insufficient funds, then they go into an unauthorised Overdraft. They end up paying surcharge interest and/or penalty fees (for any DD/SO's that are missed due to insufficient funds).

    You are correct in stating that the bank will (or at least, should) write to the customer under these circumstances. The nature of this letter (or possibly phone call) will be that the account is being operated outside the authorised limit and needs to be rectified (Different banks will have different policies regarding these letters). Failure to rectify the account will result in the account being moved into arrears management.

    I'm not saying that receiving too much money from an ATM results in the account necessarily going into arrears. I was just saying that, should there be insufficient funds in the account to cover the extra amount, the customer is embarking on the road that leads to arrears.

    Unless your just being pedantic with the word "arrears" - in that the word technically only applies to missed repayments (ie on a loan, and not an overdraft). However, failure to rectify an unauthorised overdraft leads to a demand for repayment, and thus arrears, should the customer non-comply.
    kaiser sauze wrote: »
    This all assumes the customer is found out.
    Correct, but checking the journal should identify everyone who received incorrect amounts. More often than not, the theft will be discovered.

    And even when it isn't - there's Karma:)


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    #60
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    dotsman wrote: »

    If you owe the bank money, they can demand repayment at any time.

    Always found it strange (and possibly unbalanced and unfair) that when the bank may a mistake and overpay they can sequester the funds immediately but where the bank "make a mistake" and you're overcharged you can whistle for the funds until they're good and ready.


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    #61
    dotsman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    BankMan wrote: »
    Dotsman - everything in your last post is factually incorrect. For the good of the thread there's no point in getting into a long running argument about it, but i'd encourage you to check your facts.
    Wow. "Factually incorrect" you say.

    Wow...


    ...you didn't happen to see dioltas' post before yours? You didn't happen to notice other posters saying the same thing? You haven't noticed a trend here? The bank is likely to be in a position to get the money back, and if they are, they will.

    People on this thread saying that it's not stealing - "Factually Incorrect"
    People on this thread implying the customer will easily get away with stealing the money - "Factually Incorrect"
    Yet, you jump on here attacking me (without a single shred of evidence, or even in a manner that makes that gives the impression you know what you are talking about). Good for you. If you know anybody experienced in banking, I suggest you ask them to explain it to you.

    ATMs do give out too much money. It's rare, but it does happen. In most cases, the bank is able to identify the customers and debit the accounts accordingly.

    Have a nice day:)


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