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Violent and agressive two year old

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  • 02-12-2008 10:29pm
    #1
    seahorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭


    I'd appreciate anyone's opinions or experiences around this issue. A relation of mine has a two year old daughter who is becoming increasingly violent and aggressive. In the last few weeks she has scrabbed the face off her mother, kicked the legs of her cousin and punched her aunt in the face and tore the hair out of the same aunts head (these last two incidents happened on two separate occasions)

    She has also begun to go into rages where she'll scream into my face till she's literally purple while shaking her finger at me in an extremely aggressive manner. There'll be spit flying out of her mouth and her eyes just burning with a viciousness I've never ever come across or even heard of before in a two year old child. I'm starting to think something has got to be wrong here.

    A woman I spoke to recently has advised me to encourage her mother to have her checked for ADHD. I'm wondering is there anything anyone can offer regarding all this? I've raised a child myself by the way, so I know all about the terrible twos, and believe me, this isn't it.


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    #2
    the glass woman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 361 ✭✭the glass woman


    seahorse wrote: »
    she'll scream into my face till she's literally purple while shaking her finger at me in an extremely aggressive manner. .

    This line stood out to me.. Do you think she's mimicing someone else's behaviour here? As in a parent etc? The finger motion seems learnt to me and that would be a bit worrying to be honest as obviously children absorb and learn how to behave from the world around them.. As for the temper tantrums, well my son is 15months so I've no real experience of them yet so i'm not much help there. EDIT: i'm trying to pull up my montessori training here but is it a case of frustration at not being heard or understood? How is her speech development and independence in general?


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    #3
    seahorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭seahorse


    the glass woman wrote: »
    This line stood out to me.. Do you think she's mimicing someone else's behaviour here? As in a parent etc?

    Thanks the glass woman; funny you say that because the first thing I asked her mother was where she might have learned that, because she certainly hasn't seen it from within our family. Her mother is single, so there isn't the influence of another family to consider, and she is an only child so she's not picking up behaviours others may have brought back from school etc. Maybe she saw it on the TV, who knows, but the bottom line is she has a temper on her that, if not dealt with, will certainly cause her big problems in the creche she's off to in about eight months time.

    I'd be very interested in anyone experienced in ADHD to comment on whether or not these behaviours seem typical of that, as the person I spoke to seems quite sure they may be. This child isn't seeing violence or aggression as part of her daily life experience but yet it seems strange she's picked it up on her own. I'm sorry to say the only conclusions I can come to are that there is actually something wrong or otherwise she's just a brat!


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    #4
    T-Square
    Registered Users Posts: 759 ✭✭✭T-Square


    seahorse wrote: »
    I'd appreciate anyone's opinions or experiences around this issue. A relation of mine has a two year old daughter who is becoming increasingly violent and aggressive. In the last few weeks she has scrabbed the face off her mother, kicked the legs of her cousin and punched her aunt in the face and tore the hair out of the same aunts head (these last two incidents happened on two separate occasions)

    She has also begun to go into rages where she'll scream into my face till she's literally purple while shaking her finger at me in an extremely aggressive manner. There'll be spit flying out of her mouth and her eyes just burning with a viciousness I've never ever come across or even heard of before in a two year old child. I'm starting to think something has got to be wrong here.

    A woman I spoke to recently has advised me to encourage her mother to have her checked for ADHD. I'm wondering is there anything anyone can offer regarding all this? I've raised a child myself by the way, so I know all about the terrible twos, and believe me, this isn't it.

    Sounds like you need a priest to perform an exorcism!

    but before that I'd try a time-out


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    #5
    seahorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭seahorse


    the glass woman wrote: »
    EDIT: i'm trying to pull up my montessori training here but is it a case of frustration at not being heard or understood? How is her speech development and independence in general?

    Our posts crossed over there so I've only just seen this. Her speech development would be average I'd say, and her independence actually is off the scale, too much so, I am sure.

    Her mother basically lets her make decisions she should not be allowed to make at such a ridiculously young age, such as whether or not she's willing to go to the shop when her mother needs to, things like that. If anything she is overly independent, she has it in her head that she is the authority, not her mother, and this may go some way towards explaining why she is so headstrong, but I don't think it explains the OTT violence and aggression.

    When she's sweet she's gorgeous, as all two year olds are, but when she's in a rage she's intolerable company and I can see very big problems coming down the line. I am just at a loss as to how help this situation!


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    #6
    seahorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭seahorse


    T-Square wrote: »
    Sounds like you need a priest to perform an exorcism!

    Lol, it seems there are some mind-readers on this forum - I only said to my brother the night before last that she was like something out of the exorcist, the only difference being her face would have needed to be green instead of purple! :D :eek:


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    #7
    An Fear Aniar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,377 ✭✭✭An Fear Aniar


    T-Square wrote: »
    Sounds like you need a priest to perform an exorcism!

    but before that I'd try a time-out


    My thoughts exactly. You may need some spiritual assistance here.


    .


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    #8
    Latchy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    Sounds like a job for supernanny http://www.supernanny.co.uk/ .


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    #9
    shaca
    Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭shaca


    A friend of mine has 4 kids. The second one has major tantrums and is very head strong. She started him on omega 3 a few months back and says there is a major change in him. She said if she forgets to give it to him for a few days his mood changes and the tantrums start again. My sister tried them last week on her fella and just asked her there how he is getting on. She said there has been no tantrums in 3 days.

    Not saying it is a miracle cure but it seems to calm them down a bit.


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    #10
    seahorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭seahorse


    Thanks Shaca - Holland & Barret here I come!


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    #11
    littlebug
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,832 ✭✭✭littlebug


    seahorse wrote: »

    Her mother basically lets her make decisions she should not be allowed to make at such a ridiculously young age, such as whether or not she's willing to go to the shop when her mother needs to, things like that. If anything she is overly independent, she has it in her head that she is the authority, not her mother, and this may go some way towards explaining why she is so headstrong, but I don't think it explains the OTT violence and aggression.

    in my experience small children deal with life in general better when there are rules , structure and boundaries. Some of her anger and frustration may be purely down to the fact that on one hand she's allowed all this independence and decision making but on the other she can't handle it because she's only 2.


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    #12
    the glass woman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 361 ✭✭the glass woman


    The omega 3 is a great idea and well worth a shot.. There must be a reason for her behaviour and fair play to you for trying to find that out. I know its tempting but its SO not a good idea to label a child, as bold, a brat, or a little madam etc, as there's always external factors to blame.. It's interesting what you say about her mum's parenting style, perhaps the child is literally crying out for discipline and boundries? All children crave and need to be disciplined as it makes them feel secure. And obviously by discipline i mean sat down and told whats allowed, what isn't, and most importantly explain your reasons why. I have a nephew, the same age, who's given too much choice in my opinion, and i mean in important matters where him saying no directly affects others, and what does he say? No. Which leads to more screams and rows. And he has a dreadful temper too and spits at and pushes my 15 month old to the point that i visit as little as possible.. I know i don't know enough to advise you but it really does sound like the child needs, and want, some stronger input from her mother.


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    #13
    the glass woman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 361 ✭✭the glass woman


    Just posted the same time as littlebug there but obviously great minds think alike!


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    #14
    littlebug
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,832 ✭✭✭littlebug


    the glass woman wrote: »
    Just posted the same time as littlebug there but obviously great minds think alike!


    lol but you say it much better tgw:D


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    #15
    bored and tired
    Closed Accounts Posts: 226 ✭✭bored and tired


    Have a look at the childs diet as well, some things aimed at toddlers and young children appear healthy but when you look at the labels they are laced with sugar,

    petit filous can have alot of sugar, juice drinks, cereals. I would look for eliminating hyper activity from excess hidden sugar before labeling a child as adhd,

    Also as the 2 girls said, imposing some ground rules and discipline would be no harm. I have always operated a counting threat with my 7year old. I tell her what to do, tell her the punishment if it isnt done, and then give her the count of 5 to start. She hates timeouts, and if she is very bold, i go down to her room with a black bag and fill it full of toys and teddies, and she gets one back every time she is very good. As i said she is 7 now, but i have been doing it since she was little and first started acting out,


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    #16
    seahorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭seahorse


    Thanks everyone.

    I've had a string of discussions culminating in a recent row with the child's mother about her lackadaisical parenting style. To be honest it's beyond belief to me that anyone would let a two year old basically decide how to run her own life. Thankfully her mother has agreed that there are things that could and should be done differently and I've seen some changes in her parenting since that episode.

    It will take time of course for her daughter to begin to respond and in the meantime we are witnessing an upswing in these awful rages, the stress of which prompted me to post this thread. As for the food issue, this little girl is a great grubber (I wish my own child had been half as easy to feed!) she'll basically eat anything she's given and her mam gives her lots of fruit but also lots of crap. I'll be having a talk with her about sugary foods etc and please God we'll be seeing some behavioural changes soon.

    In the meantime I'll just try to keep my sanity when we have the kind of scenes we had this morning where my son had a bowl-full of cereal knocked all over him when she clattered the arm off him as he was eating his breakfast, reason being he objected to her continually trying to stick her hand in the bloody bowl! :eek: :mad:


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    #17
    lostinnappies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 827 ✭✭✭lostinnappies


    seahorse wrote: »
    Our posts crossed over there so I've only just seen this. Her speech development would be average I'd say, and her independence actually is off the scale, too much so, I am sure.

    Her mother basically lets her make decisions she should not be allowed to make at such a ridiculously young age, such as whether or not she's willing to go to the shop when her mother needs to, things like that. If anything she is overly independent, she has it in her head that she is the authority, not her mother, and this may go some way towards explaining why she is so headstrong, but I don't think it explains the OTT violence and aggression.

    When she's sweet she's gorgeous, as all two year olds are, but when she's in a rage she's intolerable company and I can see very big problems coming down the line. I am just at a loss as to how help this situation!
    And there is your problem.

    There are no strict rules and consiquenses for her actions.

    To me (have experienced ADHD with other children) it doesnt sound like ADHD (well not completly anyway). Children with ADHD get fustrated not violently angry. They are high maintenance, not a health hazard. They are often extremly good comunicators (although loud).There maybe elements of ADHD but that is not the underlying cause.

    To be honest I would sujest using time outs, setting a list of rules (not for the child but also for the mother to remember) having a routine set in place so she knows what is happening. Finally and most importantly taking charge and becoming the PARENT and allowing the child to be a child. Bordom can play a big role in this too so she need to also take her out daily for EXERCISE.


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    #18
    Jesus1222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 301 ✭✭Jesus1222


    Sounds to me like extremely bad parenting having a particularly bad effect in this instance. It's a terribly difficult situation, you can never really tell a parent that they're crap and turning their kids into obnoxious greedy monsters - which will carry on into teenaged years and beyond, then people wonder where increases in serious violence with young people originates.


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    #19
    little nell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭little nell


    a s the mother of 5 boys (no girls) one of my boys had temper tantrums in which he would hold his breath until he fell in a heap on the floor ,i tried to give him anything he wanted because i was afraid he would die from holding his breath .the dr. was in the house one day and i told him what was going on with my son ,he told me the next time he held his breath and got into a tantrum to open the door and put him outside ,thinking he was mad i said i could not do such a cruel thing as he might be dead when i opened the door from holding his breath ,he assured me it was humanly impossible to hold your breath long enough to die ,so the next time he did it i opened the door ,put him out on the mat and closed the door.i was crying looking out at him ,when he got over his fit he got up and kicked the door ,he never did it again ,that was 24 yrs ago .so i think little miss might need a bit of a shock ,case of be cruel to be kind eh


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    #20
    dan_d
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    Tbh, if she's 2 and allowed to make decisions, there's the start of the problem. She sounds like a child who needs boundaries set and enforced for her, and I wouldn't even mention the word ADHD. She sounds like a typical 2 year old who's allowed far too much leniency, and about the only thing she needs is to be taught who's in charge.I've no doubt I sound cruel and callous, but from experience, it's generally the best solution, rather than pussy footing around the situation. What's going to happen when she starts school and the teacher is trying to teach her to sit down, and she doesn't because she doesn't want to and has never had to obey an order like that?She wastes the teacher's time, she ends up fighting with her all the time, wastes the time of the other children in the class, and then makes her mother worried because of what the teacher will be saying back to her (the mother). And that's just the very tip of the iceberg. You sound like you're taking the right approach in speaking to her mother about it.Hopefully you'll see some results!


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    #21
    seahorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭seahorse


    Hi everyone, just wanted to check in and give you the latest installment and also say thanks for all the advice, I really was going off my head the last couple of weeks and it helped to be able to talk it out.

    We've had a very easy week or two with the little one, I've no idea why except maybe that I've been putting my foot down and not taking any nonsense. The only thing that's still really annoying me is that her mother expects nothing of her in terms of asking her to put her toys back in her toy box, things like that. Her mothers response to suggestions like that from me is simply that: "she's two"!

    That response really rubs me up the wrong way - yeah, she's two, that's the whole bloody point - she's two years of age so how in Gods name is she to be expected to figure these things out for herself? Of course she has to be told! Anyway, other than that things have got much better and please God they stay that way. (but I'm also hoping I haven't put the mockers on myself by posting this post, ha ha!)


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    #22
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Kids need rules and i have often seen 2 year olds walk over parents.

    Like it or not the behaviour does seem to be learnt- its fairly silly to excuse the mom.When I see Adhd - I think yummy mummy and naughty child.

    Children are not dolls or puppies -the child needs routine for bed,meals and everything.

    It seems to me its not just the infant but the mother who needs training.


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    #23
    the glass woman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 361 ✭✭the glass woman


    seahorse wrote: »
    Hi everyone, just wanted to check in and give you the latest installment and also say thanks for all the advice, I really was going off my head the last couple of weeks and it helped to be able to talk it out.

    We've had a very easy week or two with the little one, I've no idea why except maybe that I've been putting my foot down and not taking any nonsense. The only thing that's still really annoying me is that her mother expects nothing of her in terms of asking her to put her toys back in her toy box, things like that. Her mothers response to suggestions like that from me is simply that: "she's two"!

    That response really rubs me up the wrong way - yeah, she's two, that's the whole bloody point - she's two years of age so how in Gods name is she to be expected to figure these things out for herself? Of course she has to be told! Anyway, other than that things have got much better and please God they stay that way. (but I'm also hoping I haven't put the mockers on myself by posting this post, ha ha!)

    Well thats a start, Seahorse. Does the mother and child live with you? It must be so hard to have to sit by and watch this.. Sounds to me like the child would benefit enormously from being sent to a montessori school in september..


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    #24
    seahorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭seahorse


    CDfm wrote: »
    It seems to me its not just the infant but the mother who needs training.

    Well I'm very sorry to say I absolutely agree with you there CDfm.


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    #25
    seahorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭seahorse


    the glass woman wrote: »
    Well thats a start, Seahorse. Does the mother and child live with you? It must be so hard to have to sit by and watch this.. Sounds to me like the child would benefit enormously from being sent to a montessori school in september..

    They are staying with me temporarily between house-moves the glass woman, just till they get themselves on their feet. She and I have had some serious rows reason being I wont sit back and watch the madness that's been going on in my home. I just couldn't as it's been bleedin intolerable at times, to be honest.

    We've had another few wobblers from the child since I posted my last post but no violence thank God. She is going to creche next September but I know they also have a montessori attatched. Is montessori where she'd be placed automatically because of her age? (2 and a bit) and is there any difference between this and regular creche?

    I wouldn't have a clue because I never sent my child to a creche, I had a minder so I'm not sure how these things are structured, but if montessori is all about routines and structures and might put some manners on her then it sounds like that's where she needs to go!


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    #26
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    seahorse wrote: »
    Well I'm very sorry to say I absolutely agree with you there CDfm.

    Does the Mum work? What are her plans?

    It seems to me that she could do with some lifeskills.

    There are a number of places that do parenting classes or drop in for young mothers.

    There was one in the Whitefriars in Dublin City Centre for single Mums.


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    #27
    the glass woman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 361 ✭✭the glass woman


    seahorse wrote: »
    She is going to creche next September but I know they also have a montessori attatched. Is montessori where she'd be placed automatically because of her age? (2 and a bit) and is there any difference between this and regular creche?

    oh god yeah, there's a huge difference. Its all about teaching the child life skills and hence developing them into confident, self fulfilled little beings. I couldn't praise the philosophy more. Sharing, respecting others and their environment is also a huge part of it. I know it seems like the mother is a big contributer to the child's behaviour but if the child is in the structured environment for a few hours a day the results will be visible at home. They usually start them any time from two and a half but i'd say you'd need to request a place, i wouldn't say its automatic. Some children don't start til 3yrs. Maybe read up on it on the net and talk to her mum about it. Best of luck!


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    #28
    seahorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭seahorse


    the glass woman wrote: »
    They usually start them any time from two and a half but i'd say you'd need to request a place, i wouldn't say its automatic. Some children don't start til 3yrs. Maybe read up on it on the net and talk to her mum about it. Best of luck!

    Thanks a mill! That's timed perfectly as she'll be a few weeks away from three next September when her mam starts college. I'll get onto reserving a montessori place for her asap.


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    #29
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    You should go about getting your relative some parenting classes or into some young mothers group.

    It would give her a sence of balance seeing what others do.


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    #30
    lostinnappies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 827 ✭✭✭lostinnappies


    seahorse wrote: »
    Hi everyone, just wanted to check in and give you the latest installment and also say thanks for all the advice, I really was going off my head the last couple of weeks and it helped to be able to talk it out.

    We've had a very easy week or two with the little one, I've no idea why except maybe that I've been putting my foot down and not taking any nonsense. The only thing that's still really annoying me is that her mother expects nothing of her in terms of asking her to put her toys back in her toy box, things like that. Her mothers response to suggestions like that from me is simply that: "she's two"!

    That response really rubs me up the wrong way - yeah, she's two, that's the whole bloody point - she's two years of age so how in Gods name is she to be expected to figure these things out for herself? Of course she has to be told! Anyway, other than that things have got much better and please God they stay that way. (but I'm also hoping I haven't put the mockers on myself by posting this post, ha ha!)
    I have to say I wish there were more people out there like you, well done you for stepping up. Sometimes it takes a village to raise a child, you seem to have become part of her village keep it up. She needs you more then you realise, as for her mother and her laid back attitude, it will come back and bite her on her lazy ass.


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