Heat Pumps - post here.

sheff the ref

Solar can contribute towards heating depending on the setup, on a bitterly cold day with sunshine, can contribute.

Tommyboy08 wrote: »

Solar and heat pumps together does not make any financial sense,
The hot water demand of a house is on average 20% of the total running time of the heat pump per year, so about 25 to 30% of the total electric usage, so if we say that the solar panels satisfy all my hot water demands for six months of the year then I would have saved myself 15% of my running costs,
When you consider that a well designed properly installed heat pump system would heat a reasonable well insulated 3000sq/ft house for €500 then your only going to save €75 per year, it'll take a long time to payback the solar panels

engineermike

Tommyboy08 wrote: »

Solar and heat pumps together does not make any financial sense,
The hot water demand of a house is on average 20% of the total running time of the heat pump per year, so about 25 to 30% of the total electric usage, so if we say that the solar panels satisfy all my hot water demands for six months of the year then I would have saved myself 15% of my running costs,
When you consider that a well designed properly installed heat pump system would heat a reasonable well insulated 3000sq/ft house for €500 then your only going to save €75 per year, it'll take a long time to payback the solar panels

6 months of free Hot water or at least 50 - 70% of your hot water demand, with a lot less demand on the pump during that period, less requirement to heat the space during that same period.
Further more the pre heat to the tank in the winter months or other 6 in the year - getting that first 20 - 30 degrees of heat into the tank, pump has less work to do.
Theres no denying there is an initial expense in selecting the 2 systems combined. However correctly designed the sizing for the pump would be correctly matched with the solar contribution to HW.
We have pumps with a solar coil built in by the manufacturer & also a back up immersion if a failure should occur. The two systems combined seems to work for the instances where we have done it. Also I notice less frequent intervals / or cost for those clients in regard to service on the pump.
Also how many adult HW users are in the home.? This would give a more accurate figure of contribution of HW to the home from solar.

mf

Tommyboy08

engineermike wrote: »

6 months of free Hot water or at least 50 - 70% of your hot water demand, with a lot less demand on the pump during that period, less requirement to heat the space during that same period.
Further more the pre heat to the tank in the winter months or other 6 in the year - getting that first 20 - 30 degrees of heat into the tank, pump has less work to do.
Theres no denying there is an initial expense in selecting the 2 systems combined. However correctly designed the sizing for the pump would be correctly matched with the solar contribution to HW.
Also I notice less frequent intervals / or cost for those clients in regard to service on the pump.

mf

When would you need to be preheating your hot water tank up to 30 degrees?

How exactly are you noticing less frequent service intervals for these heat pumps?
What are your normal service intervals and how are solar panels helping to shorten these intervals?

stonehinge

Tommyboy08 wrote: »

Glad to hear your great results,
Just two quick questions,
How many hours a day do you run the system and at what temperature is it set to for the rads?
Thanks

Hi there--have you any experience with alpha innotec heat pumps and boilers or can anyone give me a name of a reliable installer

Tommyboy08

stonehinge wrote: »

Hi there--have you any experience with alpha innotec heat pumps and boilers or can anyone give me a name of a reliable installer

Is it an existing unit that your having trouble with or are you getting one fitted and looking for advice?

sheff the ref

People forget that solar will contribute hot water during the months the heating system is off, and that saves on electricity costs also.

Condenser

sheff the ref wrote: »

People forget that solar will contribute hot water during the months the heating system is off, and that saves on electricity costs also.

Not to such a degree that you get a payback on the panels. You'll spend a large amount of cash up front for negligible returns.

sheff the ref

Condenser,

On a winter day like today, cool but sunny, what sort of a return will you get from solar tubes?

Condenser

sheff the ref wrote: »

Condenser,

On a winter day like today, cool but sunny, what sort of a return will you get from solar tubes?

Hard to say. You might get the tank up to 40c but the key is how long it would take. It most likely won, t cover how water requirements for even one evening shower and have no contribution to the heating due to the low number of kw available from the panels.

sheff the ref

Would find that unusual because I know of people with one set of tubes getting hot water sufficient for their needs most of the year.

Today, the sun was shining from roughly 8am to about 4.30pm. Surely there is a tangible gain from that?

Condenser

sheff the ref wrote: »

Would find that unusual because I know of people with one set of tubes getting hot water sufficient for their needs most of the year.

Today, the sun was shining from roughly 8am to about 4.30pm. Surely there is a tangible gain from that?

Theres enough to heat a tank but in terms of space heating it insignificant. It doesn't take alot of energy to heat a tank of water in the greater scheme of things and the time available to do so is a sizeable portion of any given day.

BarneyMc

engineermike wrote: »

As for the stove with the back boiler- usually a no / no with a heat pump. Uncontrollable heat sources don't work well with HP's - except if system is designed with a heat exchange, and again extra expense.

This is what I want to go with Anyway will be meeting someone soon who will explain the heat exchange to me and will see what they have to say on this.

sheff the ref

What is the general opinion of the oversizing of an air to water heatpump.

I know a couple of people that have a 13KW heatpump for houses that are in the region of 3500 square feet and the heatpump is costing a lot of money to run in the winter months and insulated to 2006 standards which would not necessarily be anything more than standard cavity insulation of that time.

Are there any figures available online which might show that an ovesized air to water heatpump will produce greater output and thereby have less ongoing work to do.

Condenser

sheff the ref wrote: »

What is the general opinion of the oversizing of an air to water heatpump.

I know a couple of people that have a 13KW heatpump for houses that are in the region of 3500 square feet and the heatpump is costing a lot of money to run in the winter months and insulated to 2006 standards which would not necessarily be anything more than standard cavity insulation of that time.

Are there any figures available online which might show that an ovesized air to water heatpump will produce greater output and thereby have less ongoing work to do.

The only reason to oversize an air to water heat pump is to cover the shortfall that will occur in cold weather when the efficiency and therefore the output of the machine will fall when air temperatures drop. Generally you would see the heat pump sized at 30% greater than required.

From the sounds of the houses you described I would have a feeling the unit is undersized rather than oversized but neither is a true reason for high running costs. This usually stems from poor installation, poor controls or both.

sheff the ref

Oh ya, my feeling was that the units are undersized and it is in the real cold weather that the problem really occurs.

The cost associated with oversizing to more than 30% may well be worth it if installing one. You have to think of the greatest demand cases, and in our case that was in the winter of 2010 when the temperatures were below -10 degrees. Therefore if I am going with air to water, I will be seeking to oversize to allow it to operate at such temperatures without burning up huge amounts of electricity. In any event at normal ambient winter conditions, it will need to run for less time if oversized also. An extra couple of grand would get you a bigger air to water heatpump. You wouldn't be long burning that in electricity at -10 degrees.

Less running time providing more heat, even if the unit costs more to run while it is actually running.

Condenser wrote: »

The only reason to oversize an air to water heat pump is to cover the shortfall that will occur in cold weather when the efficiency and therefore the output of the machine will fall when air temperatures drop. Generally you would see the heat pump sized at 30% greater than required.

From the sounds of the houses you described I would have a feeling the unit is undersized rather than oversized but neither is a true reason for high running costs. This usually stems from poor installation, poor controls or both.

Condenser

sheff the ref wrote: »

Oh ya, my feeling was that the units are undersized and it is in the real cold weather that the problem really occurs.

The cost associated with oversizing to more than 30% may well be worth it if installing one. You have to think of the greatest demand cases, and in our case that was in the winter of 2010 when the temperatures were below -10 degrees. Therefore if I am going with air to water, I will be seeking to oversize to allow it to operate at such temperatures without burning up huge amounts of electricity. In any event at normal ambient winter conditions, it will need to run for less time if oversized also. An extra couple of grand would get you a bigger air to water heatpump. You wouldn't be long burning that in electricity at -10 degrees.

Less running time providing more heat, even if the unit costs more to run while it is actually running.

True to a point but you should also consider that it will be oversized for 80 to 90% of its life and therefore will short cycle frequently which is bad for the compressor. You'll also need to increase flow return pipework size as a bigger unit requires bigger flow.
With air to water you're constantly engineering your way round the next problem, undersizing, oversizing, defrosting, short cycling etc etc. You should really use a gshp and be done with it.

sheff the ref

Ya, Air to Water is not as simple as it sounds. Perhaps it is a case of going with a borehole GSHP

Condenser wrote: »

True to a point but you should also consider that it will be oversized for 80 to 90% of its life and therefore will short cycle frequently which is bad for the compressor. You'll also need to increase flow return pipework size as a bigger unit requires bigger flow.
With air to water you're constantly engineering your way round the next problem, undersizing, oversizing, defrosting, short cycling etc etc. You should really use a gshp and be done with it.

loseit

Does anyone know how to turn up the temp. on a waterkotte system ? it is set at 14 degrees and I want to increase it.

SOR2010

Hi can anyone recommend any service engineers in the Tullamore area?
I have a Nibe 1140 GS Heat pump that I need to get serviced,
ESB bills are crazy between €5-600 every 2 months!!
House is only 4 yrs old and insulated to a high level, 50mm Warm board on all external walls and pumped beaded insulation in the cavity,
The Installers say there isn't a problem with the Unit so I want to get a 2nd opinion.

As per rules PM's only Thanks in Advance

sheff the ref

SOR2010 wrote: »

Hi can anyone recommend any service engineers in the Tullamore area?
I have a Nibe 1140 GS Heat pump that I need to get serviced,
ESB bills are crazy between €5-600 every 2 months!!
House is only 4 yrs old and insulated to a high level, 50mm Warm board on all external walls and pumped beaded insulation in the cavity,
The Installers say there isn't a problem with the Unit so I want to get a 2nd opinion.

As per rules PM's only Thanks in Advance

These are the posts that frighten me sometimes. What size is the house. How thick are the cavities?

SOR2010

Sheff

The house is 4000sq ft, 4 inch cavity with a block facade, ufh on both floors,

Update I had been on to an engineer to come & service my heat pump but had no answer from him all week, I put up the post and got a call to say he'd be here in 30 mins, he just left and said the filters were blocked, have to say very nice guy and very helpful,
I'm now hoping this was the problem and it turn will reduce our esb bills!

Has anyone had a similar problem?

sheff the ref

Is there any meter they can use to monitor ESB usage to the heatpump?

SOR2010

sheff the ref wrote: »

Is there any meter they can use to monitor ESB usage to the heatpump?

Yes he fitted one for me as well,
I have to take off the front panel to look at it but it's easy enough to get at, so at least now I can compare the heating against the Esb reading and see if there's any other problems

BryanF

SOR2010 wrote: »

Sheff

The house is 4000sq ft, 4 inch cavity with a block facade, ufh on both floors,

Update I had been on to an engineer to come & service my heat pump but had no answer from him all week, I put up the post and got a call to say he'd be here in 30 mins, he just left and said the filters were blocked, have to say very nice guy and very helpful,
I'm now hoping this was the problem and it turn will reduce our esb bills!

Has anyone had a similar problem?

please come back and tell us how your bills go from now on

SOR2010

BryanF wrote: »

please come back and tell us how your bills go from now on

Will do

psham

loseit wrote: »

Does anyone know how to turn up the temp. on a waterkotte system ? it is set at 14 degrees and I want to increase it.

Yes.. turn up temp return to base to 20℃ in heating menu in really cold weather.. I have mine set to 18℃ all this winter and house is always 20-21℃.

Curious Geroge

brianowilliams wrote: »

Have had a lot of problems with Nutherm over the last 3 months. Had what at first appeared like a simple problem but their customer service here in galway is very poor.
3 months later and €2000 in costs and system still not fixed.

Great info to know. I'm about to finalize on a Danfoss unit from heatpumpsireland but finding it impossible to get recommendations as they are suppliers and have fitters for each county. Based in galway, recommendations or general information welcomed (by PM or here). Thanks

planes01

Neighbours went with "shamrocksolar" and have had no issues.

alfa_aficionado

Have a Waterkotte DS5019.3 Ai heat pump but seem to have mislaid the manual so I have 2 questions someone can hopefully help me with:

1. Does anyone have a PDF copy(or web link) of the operating manual?
2. The heat pump is currently off and displaying the following error message "Bad evaporating" - does anyone know what this means and if there is anything I can try to correct it? Is it worth power cycling?

psham

alfa_aficionado wrote: »

Have a Waterkotte DS5027 heat pump but seem to have mislaid the manual so I have 2 questions someone can hopefully help me with:

1. Does anyone have a PDF copy(or web link) of the operating manual?
2. The heat pump is currently off and displaying the following error message "Bad evaporating" - does anyone know what this means and if there is anything I can try to correct it? Is it worth power cycling?

I have a manual for AI1 5008.4 if you want it.. think the menus and error messages are pretty much the same on them.. If you want to pm me your email address I can send it to you.
Never had that error myself ..