Heat Pumps - post here.

MENACE2010

hellsbells83 wrote: »

Hi

We're about to start a house build and we are deciding on heating system. We are interested in air to water heat pump with under floor heating. Just wondering if anyone has any experience with this system. I've read really mixed reviews some that it's really expensive to run and others that it's efficient. I think I've established that it is much more expensive with rads, not suited to that really.

My main concern is that it has to be on all the time from October. I know the pump isn't running constant there would be thermostat that would mean pump would only be on when drops below certain temperature. We both work so won't be home during the day. So essentially the house will be heated even though no one is there.

We were going to get the house a well insulated as possible, good Windows, heat recovery system and air tightness. So I'd hope we wouldn't need heat much, so in that case air to water heat pump seems like a massive investment where we could put oil system I Just to have for cold weather where required.

Anyone any experience with air to water heat pump or any feedback

okay let me dispel some myths and challenges

- Any heating system is only as good as the house that its installed in , in other words .. house with poor insulation and high heat-loss will be expensive to heat regardless of the the technology .

If you do as you say proper insulation the heat-loss will be low ..( for example my kids can heat the living room with the doors closed by playing on the Xbox and the telly , no joke after one hour the room temprature is up to 22 degrees C. ). Consider triple glazing , insulated plasterboard for the perimeter wall

Rads or underfloor is a call that you need to make you have Low temperature rads that are super efficient or use Underfloor both are options but the experience is different.. underfloor is more like a climate .. rads are more immediate heat .. underfloor will take a while to heat up the house

Thermostats on underfloor heating , my experience is that its not great , not that it does not work but the response time of the floor is slow .. not like a rad.. screed has a thermal mass and it will take time to cool down and reverse its takes time to heat up ..
Our heating is set on a lower temprature overall between 9 - 17 and on "normal" between 17 :00 - 09:00 . We only generate hotwater after 11 PM - 09am. So you can control your cost of it all if have set all my thermostats on high and let the heatpump figure it out ..

so far its working but it will take time to tweak. ( this is my 3rd winter in the house) .

We went with Air source for convenience as I was truly sick of ordering oil.. bleeding ( fingers and oil system) .. smell .. etc. .

is it more economical .. this is the 100 euro question everyone on this forum is after the same answer.. its all dependent on the insulation, orientation of the house , heat gain from the sun , size of the house , location of the house . We spend around 166 euro per month on electricity per month .. for everything lights / heating / cooking / computers everything . I'm happy with that . .there are people on the forum that are thinking its a lot , but its my house my bills and I'm happy

PM me for more info as i have been <snip> by moderators in the past

MENACE2010

hellsbells83 wrote: »

Hi

We're about to start a house build and we are deciding on heating system. We are interested in air to water heat pump with under floor heating. Just wondering if anyone has any experience with this system. I've read really mixed reviews some that it's really expensive to run and others that it's efficient. I think I've established that it is much more expensive with rads, not suited to that really.

My main concern is that it has to be on all the time from October. I know the pump isn't running constant there would be thermostat that would mean pump would only be on when drops below certain temperature. We both work so won't be home during the day. So essentially the house will be heated even though no one is there.

We were going to get the house a well insulated as possible, good Windows, heat recovery system and air tightness. So I'd hope we wouldn't need heat much, so in that case air to water heat pump seems like a massive investment where we could put oil system I Just to have for cold weather where required.

Anyone any experience with air to water heat pump or any feedback

okay let me dispel some myths and challenges

- Any heating system is only as good as the house that its installed in , in other words .. house with poor insulation and high heat-loss will be expensive to heat regardless of the the technology .

If you do as you say proper insulation the heat-loss will be low ..( for example my kids can heat the living room with the doors closed by playing on the Xbox and the telly , no joke after one hour the room temprature is up to 22 degrees C. ). Consider triple glazing , insulated plasterboard for the perimeter wall

Rads or underfloor is a call that you need to make you have Low temperature rads that are super efficient or use Underfloor both are options but the experience is different.. underfloor is more like a climate .. rads are more immediate heat .. underfloor will take a while to heat up the house

Thermostats on underfloor heating , my experience is that its not great , not that it does not work but the response time of the floor is slow .. not like a rad.. screed has a thermal mass and it will take time to cool down and reverse its takes time to heat up ..
Our heating is set on a lower temprature overall between 9 - 17 and on "normal" between 17 :00 - 09:00 . We only generate hotwater after 11 PM - 09am. So you can control your cost of it all if have set all my thermostats on high and let the heatpump figure it out ..

so far its working but it will take time to tweak. ( this is my 3rd winter in the house) .

We went with Air source for convenience as I was truly sick of ordering oil.. bleeding ( fingers and oil system) .. smell .. etc. .

is it more economical .. this is the 100 euro question everyone on this forum is after the same answer.. its all dependent on the insulation, orientation of the house , heat gain from the sun , size of the house , location of the house . We spend around 166 euro per month on electricity per month .. for everything lights / heating / cooking / computers everything . I'm happy with that . .there are people on the forum that are thinking its a lot , but its my house my bills and I'm happy

PM me for more info as i have been <snip> by moderators in the past

MENACE2010

Hi
We use the day/ Night meter.. aside from the fact we are not diligent enough to use it properly .. its a moderate saving. Statements of worse efficiency in the dark are partially true .. the colder it gets the more work the compressor needs to do .. so far the irish with of 2016 has been kind on my electricity bills .. ;o} .. We are dilligent on the dishwasher .. only comes on after 11 PM .

MENACE2010

BarneyMc wrote: »

I have a query regarding A2W HPs and dual tariff meters here. Can someone please advise? Thank!

moderate savings .. not a whole lot .. depending on the correct settings of the heat-pump ( generate hot water after 11 PM) .. and you start to use appliances like dishwasher after 11 PM // your better off to get AAA rated appliances . .

ecowise

I posted comments on another thread relevant to this topic:

...boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=98789940#post98789940

(truncated URL start as blocked otherwise)

nice_guy80

MENACE2010 wrote: »

is it more economical .. this is the 100 euro question everyone on this forum is after the same answer.. its all dependent on the insulation, orientation of the house , heat gain from the sun , size of the house , location of the house . We spend around 166 euro per month on electricity per month .. for everything lights / heating / cooking / computers everything . I'm happy with that . .there are people on the forum that are thinking its a lot , but its my house my bills and I'm happy

If you subtracted the cost of a fill of oil from this, it works out quite reasonable

MENACE2010

nice_guy80 wrote: »

If you subtracted the cost of a fill of oil from this, it works out quite reasonable

Huh.. We don't have oil..

nice_guy80

MENACE2010 wrote: »

Huh.. We don't have oil..

Exactly.
That'd be the cost in other houses.

Your electricity costs are higher

I wonder would Solar PV make much inroads into that bill?

MENACE2010

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Exactly.
That'd be the cost in other houses.

Your electricity costs are higher

I wonder would Solar PV make much inroads into that bill?

Cost of the install outweighs the saving, I would need to review it though. In the Netherlands ( my home country) the local "ESB'S" are offering the TESLA batteries for Leasing, that would make a difference in that you can store electricity for house for use at night.. but hey we're in Ireland .. we wait .. and wait .. wait .. ..

sheff the ref

Is that an all year round average of €166?

What would the individual winter months cost.

If you have heating and everything included on your ESB bill for that, then you arent paying over the top for heat. A lot of domestic ESB bills average €100 and have to pay for a number of fills of oil after that

MENACE2010 wrote: »

okay let me dispel some myths and challenges

- Any heating system is only as good as the house that its installed in , in other words .. house with poor insulation and high heat-loss will be expensive to heat regardless of the the technology .

If you do as you say proper insulation the heat-loss will be low ..( for example my kids can heat the living room with the doors closed by playing on the Xbox and the telly , no joke after one hour the room temprature is up to 22 degrees C. ). Consider triple glazing , insulated plasterboard for the perimeter wall

Rads or underfloor is a call that you need to make you have Low temperature rads that are super efficient or use Underfloor both are options but the experience is different.. underfloor is more like a climate .. rads are more immediate heat .. underfloor will take a while to heat up the house

Thermostats on underfloor heating , my experience is that its not great , not that it does not work but the response time of the floor is slow .. not like a rad.. screed has a thermal mass and it will take time to cool down and reverse its takes time to heat up ..
Our heating is set on a lower temprature overall between 9 - 17 and on "normal" between 17 :00 - 09:00 . We only generate hotwater after 11 PM - 09am. So you can control your cost of it all if have set all my thermostats on high and let the heatpump figure it out ..

so far its working but it will take time to tweak. ( this is my 3rd winter in the house) .

We went with Air source for convenience as I was truly sick of ordering oil.. bleeding ( fingers and oil system) .. smell .. etc. .

is it more economical .. this is the 100 euro question everyone on this forum is after the same answer.. its all dependent on the insulation, orientation of the house , heat gain from the sun , size of the house , location of the house . We spend around 166 euro per month on electricity per month .. for everything lights / heating / cooking / computers everything . I'm happy with that . .there are people on the forum that are thinking its a lot , but its my house my bills and I'm happy

PM me for more info as i have been <snip> by moderators in the past

MENACE2010

sheff the ref wrote: »

Is that an all year round average of €166?

What would the individual winter months cost.

If you have heating and everything included on your ESB bill for that, then you arent paying over the top for heat. A lot of domestic ESB bills average €100 and have to pay for a number of fills of oil after that

Hi
It's average of 166, at the moment we are paying this through a cost spreading programme through airtricity. So its a electricity bill of 166 for 12 months. The winter before was 500 euro for November and December and the same for January and February. Due to the efficiency of the house we can switch the heating off quite early. We then only use the pump for hotwater

SFAGANX

Hi

I wonder if you could assist me with a technical query.

I have my heat pump nibe fighter 1245 installed for 3.5 years now and it has been running brilliantly up until last month when the vessel level indicator on my brine ground collector circuit emptied of its contents.

To cut a long story short I located the source of the problem to be a brass nut and ring where my plastic hdpe pipework from ground connector connected to copper pipework on one of the 2 garden circuits. This was located under my garden patio and replaced and after this I refilled and vented the system as best as possible. The system has been running ok (not as good as before the issue) for the last month until last night again the vessel has emptied and the unit went out on LP alarm with red light showing on the front of unit.

I have arranged for the plumbers to trace and fault find the issue tomorrow but have a query as to what anyone else done for as follows.

Pipework type used on collector field.
Type of fittings on entry to garden manifold
Type of pipework material from manifold to heat pump.
Type of fittings on connection to heat pump.

Due to the nature of my issue I am concearned that using copper fittings made of brass may be to redgid and as a result meaning catastrophic failures.

MENACE2010

SFAGANX wrote: »

Hi

I wonder if you could assist me with a technical query.

I have my heat pump nibe fighter 1245 installed for 3.5 years now and it has been running brilliantly up until last month when the vessel level indicator on my brine ground collector circuit emptied of its contents.

To cut a long story short I located the source of the problem to be a brass nut and ring where my plastic hdpe pipework from ground connector connected to copper pipework on one of the 2 garden circuits. This was located under my garden patio and replaced and after this I refilled and vented the system as best as possible. The system has been running ok (not as good as before the issue) for the last month until last night again the vessel has emptied and the unit went out on LP alarm with red light showing on the front of unit.

I have arranged for the plumbers to trace and fault find the issue tomorrow but have a query as to what anyone else done for as follows.

Pipework type used on collector field.
Type of fittings on entry to garden manifold
Type of pipework material from manifold to heat pump.
Type of fittings on connection to heat pump.

Due to the nature of my issue I am concearned that using copper fittings made of brass may be to redgid and as a result meaning catastrophic failures.

Hi
Let someone else look at it .. I can recommend an installer please PM me

Elsie161211

Hi all,

I am receiving different advice with relation to under floor heating with an Air to Water heat pump. Where I am getting the different advice is where to install the pipes.

I am doing a raft foundation. Engineer is currently designing it. A few heating companies have told me to pour the concrete slab ( lets say 150mm ) then put in 150mm floor insulation, then the under floor heating pipes and then a 50mm-75mm screed.

Also, a few heating companies have told me to install the 150mm floor insulation first, then pour the concrete slab which will have the heating pipes 50mm-75mm below the top of this concrete slab

from my understanding of all this, heating the concrete slab will give a more even & controlled temperature to the house but the response time will be slow.

the first way will have a quicker response time.

any advice welcome

MENACE2010

Hi
We have the latter .. concrete raft, insulation , screed+ UFH pipes.. ( from the bottom up) . I cannot tell you what is faster or not . but our floor heats the downstairs floor nicely and the house is comfortable, upstairs we have the same. The first configuration will create a thermal mass block .. nice in the summer ( cool , cooler floor) and in the winter it will even out the heat a bit .. as said i dont have the experience with it .. only our floor. As with all under floor heating , speed is not their thing .
HINT : If you are thinking about tiles .. make sure you have provision for tiles to "move" .. as the concrete slab / Screed dries . it will shrink .. and depending on tile size and orientation .. ( we have 60x60 cm tiles ) they will split /crack. (with a loud bang) especially in door opening and sharp corners .. just FYI ..

Elsie161211

MENACE2010 wrote: »

Hi
We have the latter .. concrete raft, insulation , screed+ UFH pipes.. ( from the bottom up) . I cannot tell you what is faster or not . but our floor heats the downstairs floor nicely and the house is comfortable, upstairs we have the same. The first configuration will create a thermal mass block .. nice in the summer ( cool , cooler floor) and in the winter it will even out the heat a bit .. as said i dont have the experience with it .. only our floor. As with all under floor heating , speed is not their thing .
HINT : If you are thinking about tiles .. make sure you have provision for tiles to "move" .. as the concrete slab / Screed dries . it will shrink .. and depending on tile size and orientation .. ( we have 60x60 cm tiles ) they will split /crack. (with a loud bang) especially in door opening and sharp corners .. just FYI ..

Thanks Menace,

I appreciate the response and it's good to hear from someone who is living with the state and thanks for the hint about the tiles.

Just to clarify because I think you mixed up the options, you said you have the latter but the details you said that make up your floor are the same as the first option I mentioned. Also, when you said " the first option will create a thermal mass block", did you mean the 2nd option.The 2 options I mentioned were;

1) put in the hardcore, pour a slab of concrete on top of this, then put in the floor insulation on top of the concrete, put the UFH pipes on top of the insulation and then pour a screed

2) put in the hardcore, then put in the floor insulation, then pour the concrete slab on top of the insulation. The UFH pipes will be in the top part of the concrete slab

Thanks in advance

THE DON FANUCCI

Elsie161211 wrote: »

Thanks Menace,

I appreciate the response and it's good to hear from someone who is living with the state and thanks for the hint about the tiles.

Just to clarify because I think you mixed up the options, you said you have the latter but the details you said that make up your floor are the same as the first option I mentioned. Also, when you said " the first option will create a thermal mass block", did you mean the 2nd option.The 2 options I mentioned were;

1) put in the hardcore, pour a slab of concrete on top of this, then put in the floor insulation on top of the concrete, put the UFH pipes on top of the insulation and then pour a screed

2) put in the hardcore, then put in the floor insulation, then pour the concrete slab on top of the insulation. The UFH pipes will be in the top part of the concrete slab

Thanks in advance

how do you keep the ufh heating pipes in the upper part of the concrete slab? are they suspended on something in the concrete?? this would be great option for me. first I've heard of it

MENACE2010

oops sorry ..

from the bottom up .. core > Slab ( raft) > insulation > screed + pipe

Elsie161211

THE DON FANUCCI wrote: »

how do you keep the ufh heating pipes in the upper part of the concrete slab? are they suspended on something in the concrete?? this would be great option for me. first I've heard of it

Well I'm no expert on the matter and I don't even know if it's allowed ( that will be down to the engineer ) but let's say you put down your floor insulation first, then you put down your concrete slab ( let's say 125mm ), put your UFH pipes on top and then pour a concrete screed on top. The screed may need to be structural. Again, I don't know if this would work.

Condenser

Elsie161211 wrote: »

Well I'm no expert on the matter and I don't even know if it's allowed ( that will be down to the engineer ) but let's say you put down your floor insulation first, then you put down your concrete slab ( let's say 125mm ), put your UFH pipes on top and then pour a concrete screed on top. The screed may need to be structural. Again, I don't know if this would work.

Thermal mass would be your main issue. You'd have no control over response time due to the screed depth so the house will be constantly too hot or too cold. It'll also be a nightmare to lay the pipes in the first place.

THE DON FANUCCI

THE DON FANUCCI wrote: »

how do you keep the ufh heating pipes in the upper part of the concrete slab? are they suspended on something in the concrete?? this would be great option for me. first I've heard of it

You can use the pipe mounting kits that the ufh suppliers provide. These are usually plastic strips that the pipe is clicked into and it holds the pipe in place about 20mm above the insulation and the screed is then poured. I used steel reinforcing mesh and clipped the pipe to that, the mesh was spaced about 20mm above the insulation.

jayoerris

How is every getting on with there heat pumps? thinking of going with air to water system in new built house. Ya hear so many different stories though on how some people electricity bills to be sky high from it.

Any help would be appreciated.

MENACE2010

jayoerris wrote: »

How is every getting on with there heat pumps? thinking of going with air to water system in new built house. Ya hear so many different stories though on how some people electricity bills to be sky high from it.

Any help would be appreciated.

What kinda of help are you looking for ? .., airsource heat pump is only going to efficient in a proper insulated house . more details are required on what you are planning to build

g1983d

jayoerris wrote: »

How is every getting on with there heat pumps? thinking of going with air to water system in new built house. Ya hear so many different stories though on how some people electricity bills to be sky high from it.

Any help would be appreciated.

We finished building our house last August.
50mm insulated slab on the inside of all external walls, 50mm in cavity, triple glaze alu clad and underfloor pipes covered with 4 inches of concrete.
We have daikin air to water unit and our bills every 2 months are around the 300-315 euro mark or €150 a month.
I reckon I can save about another 10% by switch from electric ireland to energia

jayoerris

it will be for a new build which IL be starting soon. It will be a well insulated house. Its story and a half and will be 2900 sqf.

Just want to get peoples opinions to see if there happy with the air to water system and typical bills.

Wegian

g1983d wrote: »

We finished building our house last August.
50mm insulated slab on the inside of all external walls, 50mm in cavity, triple glaze alu clad and underfloor pipes covered with 4 inches of concrete.
We have daikin air to water unit and our bills every 2 months are around the 300-315 euro mark or €150 a month.
I reckon I can save about another 10% by switch from electric ireland to energia

Is that all year round or just these winter months?

g1983d

jayoerris wrote: »

it will be for a new build which IL be starting soon. It will be a well insulated house. Its story and a half and will be 2900 sqf.

Just want to get peoples opinions to see if there happy with the air to water system and typical bills.

Forgot to mention also, the only airtightness we did is the fentrim tape around all the windows and doors which I did myself

sheff the ref

I am in the same boat myself but I will have 200mm cavity pumped

Cannot decide what is best and it isn't a thing you can do trial an error with.

I will have to ultimately price the following and that is the best advice I can give

1.Underfloor with a Ground source heatpump (probably borehole rather than horizontal collector)

2.Underfloor with an Air Source heatpump

3.Oil and Radiators

The electricity running costs will be lower with a Ground Source heatpump but does it justify the extra cost?

MENACE2010 wrote: »

What kinda of help are you looking for ? .., airsource heat pump is only going to efficient in a proper insulated house . more details are required on what you are planning to build

g1983d

sheff the ref wrote: »

I am in the same boat myself but I will have 200mm cavity pumped

Cannot decide what is best and it isn't a thing you can do trial an error with.

I will have to ultimately price the following and that is the best advice I can give

1.Underfloor with a Ground source heatpump (probably borehole rather than horizontal collector)

2.Underfloor with an Air Source heatpump

3.Oil and Radiators

The electricity running costs will be lower with a Ground Source heatpump but does it justify the extra cost?

My logic was, all new types of heating systems are low temp and work best with underfloor, I put in UFH pipes and then had a few months to decide on heating system.
Happy enough with the daikin air to water, bills are not too bad but like anything I always want to make them cheaper :-)
Around €150 a month

Big Dec

Hi,

I have a GSHP with vertical collector (3 x 50m bores) for a 6kW heat pump.
I moved in at the end of October & am very happy with the system.
I'm still tweaking things, so don't really have a good idea of costs yet.
During the winter months it was ~€200 per month, but I was running the system hotter than required.
I'm hoping that this will be reduced for the next heating season as the house will have dried out a bit more & I'm told first heating season is always more expensive.
I have UFH downstairs & upstairs but not really sure if it is required for upstairs bedrooms.
It is definitely good for the bathrooms, so if pouring a screed anyway, I don't think there would be that much of a difference to add all rooms upstairs.

Sometimes cost should not be the only factor.
You also need to think about comfort - the UFH does give a nice even heat throughout.
I know that oil price is very low at the moment, and that works in favour of oil & radiators.
My heat pump and bore hole probably cost more that a conventional heating system with oil & radiators, but I am more than happy with it.
Over the life of the system, it may not save me that much money but I was happy to make that choice when installing.

House details:
- 3000 sq feet
- 150mm cavity wall pumped with Walltite foam
- 72mm insulated plasterboard on external walls