Heat Pumps - post here.

I have an Efel Oil stove , very efficient. First time I ever saw an oil stove when we moved house it was installed by the previous owner. Even on the lowest possible setting it really gives out a lot of heat.

It doesn't heat water and rads but this is possible.

One of the beauties with oil is that you don't pay rental and vat when you don't use it and it's a lot cheaper to run than solid fuel or gas.

I was really surprised to see some on donedeal with the comments "going back to solid fuel" madness !

So it's an excellent alternative for backup for heat pump.

I am really impressed with this oil stove I'd really prefer if this was in the sitting room rather than the open Gas fire, runs on bottled Gas.

BryanF

lolliedog wrote: »

Solar PV and a wood burning stove to meet the requirements.

The gas option will have further considerations and expense but I can't ignore the simplicity of a gas boiler for space heating and dhw.

Gas & ufh
envelope will need to very well insulated & air-tight

What about oil stove ? they can be got really cheap 2nd hand.

froshtyv

Deleted User wrote: »

What about oil stove ? they can be got really cheap 2nd hand.

No Part L Renewable contribution with an oil stove

Sure there is if you burn waste oil or waste veg oil

MENACE2010

lolliedog wrote: »

Hi all,

Currently building a new house (block built)

2300 sq ft
150mm cavity therm insulation
400mm quilt in attic
Triple glazed
airtightness
Mhrv
Underfloor heating downstairs rads upstairs


We are now choosing the heating systems and the choice is between an a2w heat pump or a gas boiler. We have natural gas passing our site?
I am aware that with gas there will be other considerations for part L. A gas boiler has some advantages.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Right, again as posted elsewhere the numbers are dependent on the location /orientation of the house as well. We have airsource with underfloor and heatrecovery ventilation.

Please please please , have someone calculate the heatrequirement of your house first, that determines the capacity you need to keep the house cozy and warm ( regardless on the how ) . Then based on that you need to go through what you need from a part L. it makes the conversation alot easier

I discounted Solarpanels as there is not enough efficiency (read sunny days) to warrent the cost for only "warm water" .

Oil - after 7 years living with oil in various houses . fed up with its effieciency and the malarky of tank management .:mad:..

Gas - It would have been tank gas.. and the experience with a certain Gas supplier was not really to be thrilled about .

So Airsource or Geothermal , Geothermal can do down as well as horizontal if you have a small site. Airsource is cheaper upfront compared to Geothermal installation. downside they can be noisier ..( PM me for the brand we have).

so far ( for our house and usage) it works excellent , costs are within my expectation. I dont have a meter on the pump but all in all we pay now 130 euro on electricity each month for everything ..( lights / PCs / TV/ Xbox) . We have oversized the storage tank for the hotwater by 2 , so the house is set-up for 6 people ( why.. we have visitors. 2. we're active sports family with increasingly more shower time :cool: )

we have a reversable heatpump .. never set it to cool.. open a door or window in the summer works better and is cheaper too..

the heatpump is not controlled by my thermostats .. I have them and dont use them leave everything open . I have removed the heating block during the day as well.. as I discoverd the pump got a lot more active trying to catch up on the temperature drop during the day ,so we are now going into our 4th winter.. and we will see what will happen now ..

Good luck with the build.

Someone that goes to the expense of installing a heat pump is worried about the efficiency of an oil burner ? oil burners are up to what these days, 90% efficiency ?

Let's see your savings when the heat pump reaches end of life or if something goes wrong and costs a lot to repair. And/or you get a few very cold winters then the efficiency of your heat pump goes to Sh1t.

Gas is expensive, this year alone the bottled gas I get is 30 Euro's more expensive than it was previously !

MENACE2010

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Someone that goes to the expense of installing a heat pump is worried about the efficiency of an oil burner ? oil burners are up to what these days, 90% efficiency ?

Let's see your savings when the heat pump reaches end of life or if something goes wrong and costs a lot to repair. And/or you get a few very cold winters then the efficiency of your heat pump goes to Sh1t.

Gas is expensive, this year alone the bottled gas I get is 30 Euro's more expensive than it was previously !

Hi,
You're right, oil fired boilers are getting better, so are heatpumps. After the heating requirements were calculated we decided for a heat pump, while we also could have gone the oil route or gas.
We are really happy with it, no regrets. I can only recommend it to any of ye, the choice that people make is entirely theirs.

Cheers

I'm not criticising your decision and best of luck with it but I do think people should think very carefully about heat pumps because if something goes wrong a couple of years down the road it could be a very expensive repair or when it reaches end of life.

It's possible storage heaters and night rate electricity could actually work out cheaper in the end or electric heating in general once vehicle to grid systems take off. Storage heaters have got a lot better too and especially in a modern high efficiency build I don't think heat pump makes sense, not long term there are too many unknowns at this time. I do know how effective heat pumps can be having one in the Nissan Leaf, but once it goes close to 0 and below they are a lot less efficient, sure that's an air pump only system and ground sourced pumps would be more efficient but give a prolonged cold snap and it will reduce in efficiency also.

I think if I were going with a new build I would go down the route of storage heaters and Oil stove for backup and a very small solar PV array to get me past the green requirement until a feed-in-tariff is introduced.

At some point when a smart grid is up and running you will get wind energy diverted to your storage heaters at reduced cost.

When I get the updated Nissan Leaf in 2018 it will have Vehicle To Grid capability, so that means I can charge in work and power the house from the car and/or sell some to the grid or someone who gets home earlier could do the washing, cooking all on the night rate electricity they charged up with that's down the road though before Eirgrid and the ESb get this up and running but the potential to power the house form the car will come much sooner.

MOTM

Deleted User wrote: »

I think if I were going with a new build I would go down the route of storage heaters and Oil stove for backup and a very small solar PV array to get me past the green requirement until a feed-in-tariff is introduced.

Have you checked to see if you'd meet Part L MPEPC and MPCPC requirements doing this? If so, how did it compare to, say, an oil boiler or heat pump?

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not criticising your decision and best of luck with it but I do think people should think very carefully about heat pumps because if something goes wrong a couple of years down the road it could be a very expensive repair or when it reaches end of life.

You could say that about a lot of things your purchase.

You plan to use your car to power your house. That will stress the car more (inverters, battery etc) so you could equally end up with an expensive heating system there too if that gives trouble.

There is also more to the heat pump than just the cost of it. You have to make a decision about comfort. Sure we could all just put in storage heaters or burn timber in stoves but everyone has their comfort level and heat pumps are very efficient (even below 0C for Geothermal) and provide very comfortable living conditions. I don't want to go back to the idea of a timer based system or come home early some day to a cold house and have to wait 30mins for it to warm up when I flick the rads on, or messing with cleaning out a stove or ordering oil etc.

Ultimately its a personal decision on what you want and what you can afford. Its not just a pure money decision is my point.

Also bear in mind that heat pumps are not new tech. They have been around for decades in much colder climates than ours, so it is proven.

MENACE2010

KCross wrote: »

You could say that about a lot of things your purchase.

You plan to use your car to power your house. That will stress the car more (inverters, battery etc) so you could equally end up with an expensive heating system there too if that gives trouble.

There is also more to the heat pump than just the cost of it. You have to make a decision about comfort. Sure we could all just put in storage heaters or burn timber in stoves but everyone has their comfort level and heat pumps are very efficient (even below 0C for Geothermal) and provide very comfortable living conditions. I don't want to go back to the idea of a timer based system or come home early some day to a cold house and have to wait 30mins for it to warm up when I flick the rads on, or messing with cleaning out a stove or ordering oil etc.

Ultimately its a personal decision on what you want and what you can afford. Its not just a pure money decision is my point.

Also bear in mind that heat pumps are not new tech. They have been around for decades in much colder climates than ours, so it is proven.

Hi
I agree with the all points , I myself "played" with various options even looking an Panel heaters in the house, but remember your house is not an experiment, you need to live in it , and so does the family .
The biggest concern I had was that the house would perform better than expected and I would be looking at very expensive way of generating water ,but it came together.

One thing I would recommend everyone let someone else look at your house, calculate the projected heat requirement and then make a call on the system you are going to use. I could have gone for oil but convenience won it in the end . It has taken 3 winters to get the settings right .. and have not touched the system since (hardest part as I love to "tweak" ) .

MOTM

MOTM wrote: »

Have you checked to see if you'd meet Part L MPEPC and MPCPC requirements doing this? If so, how did it compare to, say, an oil boiler or heat pump?

No but at some point I would like to renovate, after just moving into an 80's reasonably well insulated house I can see huge potential for improvement but it's the o'l cost V payback but if renovating then it makes sense to make it as efficient and install the best heating system which again is down to cost v payback.

MENACE2010

Deleted User wrote: »

No but at some point I would like to renovate, after just moving into an 80's reasonably well insulated house I can see huge potential for improvement but it's the o'l cost V payback but if renovating then it makes sense to make it as efficient and install the best heating system which again is down to cost v payback.

I would seriously recommend to insulate the living daylights out of the house + check for air leaks and cold bridges, re asses what you need for heating, bit pointless to chuck in the new boiler while your heat is leaving the back door. Yes it will cost ( check for grants on the SEI website) but what you get back for comfort and save on heating bills is priceless. Ps. If you replace a boiler , check in part L there is still a compliance element (but you would meet that easily)

Install a heat recovery ventilation unit, that is by far the coolest bit of kit we have in the house, continuous fresh air that is pre-warmed from the exhaust air. (when you see it in action in the winter its very cool , fresh air @ 6 degrees being lifted to 10 or 11 degrees C or higher) no need to open windows.
We also have a wood stove with a direct fresh air feed from the outside. That also helps to save your heat from leaving the house.

Good luck .

KCross

KCross wrote: »

You could say that about a lot of things your purchase.

Yes you could but I think that by the time the system pays back that it could be time to spend money, it's hard to know and by then it will be outdated.

KCross wrote: »

You plan to use your car to power your house. That will stress the car more (inverters, battery etc) so you could equally end up with an expensive heating system there too if that gives trouble.

I plan to use the car to power the house while I'm there, obviously , so it can't power the house all the time. The House consumes a lot less than the car, average for the house is about 6-7 Kwh per day and a return trip to work , between 24-28 Kwh so even if I could power half the peak load of the house on either the work electricity or night time electricity there's a good saving to be made.

yes it will cycle the battery a bit more but it would be insignificant on a 40 kwh battery and as batteries hold more energy even less so. Regarding the inverter, it won't use the inverter, it will be connected to the cars battery directly, the inverter will be in the V2G system.

Of course the cost of this remains unknown.

KCross wrote: »

There is also more to the heat pump than just the cost of it. You have to make a decision about comfort. Sure we could all just put in storage heaters or burn timber in stoves but everyone has their comfort level and heat pumps are very efficient (even below 0C for Geothermal) and provide very comfortable living conditions. I don't want to go back to the idea of a timer based system or come home early some day to a cold house and have to wait 30mins for it to warm up when I flick the rads on, or messing with cleaning out a stove or ordering oil etc.

Ultimately its a personal decision on what you want and what you can afford. Its not just a pure money decision is my point.

Of course and if it works for you then it's worth the cost but it would not work for us and I speak for both of us when I say that with the change in our weather we would not like a roasting house or a freezing house or anything we can't control within a few mins, while one might be comfortable at 20 degrees in the sitting room we would not and there are times we don't want heat or even to heat the whole house we like cooler bedrooms 20 degrees or below.

It can also get very humid in Ireland and when it's very humid we might find 20 degrees too uncomfortable so no, thinking about it now I don't think heap pump would suit us at all.

I like heat when I want it and cool when I want it and no long lags in both or for adjustment.

Setting timers isn't what I'd call a chore can even be done with an app these days but I want as little as possible connected to the internet but I suppose you can or at least should be able to disable internet connectivity.

KCross wrote: »

Also bear in mind that heat pumps are not new tech. They have been around for decades in much colder climates than ours, so it is proven.

No not new tech but expensive with limited life for their cost and they still need energy to run.

MENACE2010

MENACE2010 wrote: »

I would seriously recommend to insulate the living daylights out of the house + check for air leaks and cold bridges, re asses what you need for heating, bit pointless to chuck in the new boiler while your heat is leaving the back door. Yes it will cost ( check for grants on the SEI website) but what you get back for comfort and save on heating bills is priceless. Ps. If you replace a boiler , check in part L there is still a compliance element (but you would meet that easily)

Install a heat recovery ventilation unit, that is by far the coolest bit of kit we have in the house, continuous fresh air that is pre-warmed from the exhaust air. (when you see it in action in the winter its very cool , fresh air @ 6 degrees being lifted to 10 or 11 degrees C or higher) no need to open windows.
We also have a wood stove with a direct fresh air feed from the outside. That also helps to save your heat from leaving the house.

Good luck .

Oh when I say renovating I mean it's only a thought at the moment.

It would be serious renovations, and I'd like to make it a dorm. I like lots of natural light so this could effect efficiency, I like lots of very large windows. I'd also like to increase the existing floor space.

Moving out while work is being done doesn't appeal to me but I would do it if the cost was viable and the end result was good. Finding a good architect might be a challenge and dealing with builders would be a nightmare for me as I've no clue about building and there are too many cowboys out there.

Insulation, airtightness and light would be my priority.

lolliedog

Anyone have any experience of Samsung heat pumps?

Have they got an inverter?

Water John

I think Mad Lad intends charging the car at work and bringing it home to run the house. A zero electricity bill would be very nice.

With renovating, getting a sealed envelope and eliminating bridging is the biggest difficulty. A MHRV is of no use unless the building is airtight and then essential.

What's this MHRV ? is id different to normal heat recovery system ?

yes that would be the plan partly run the house from the work electricity + charge on the night rate either to have night rate available during the day would be sweet also.

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes you could but I think that by the time the system pays back that it could be time to spend money, it's hard to know and by then it will be outdated.

No heating system pays for itself. It heats the house and it costs money to buy and run and will eventually give up and have to be replaced. Not sure what point you are making there.

Deleted User wrote: »

I plan to use the car to power the house while I'm there, obviously , so it can't power the house all the time......

Regarding the inverter, it won't use the inverter, it will be connected to the cars battery directly, the inverter will be in the V2G system.

Of course the cost of this remains unknown.

Exactly!!
Whereas the cost of a Heat Pump is well known and tested!

Deleted User wrote: »

Of course and if it works for you then it's worth the cost but it would not work for us and I speak for both of us when I say that with the change in our weather we would not like a roasting house or a freezing house or anything we can't control within a few mins, while one might be comfortable at 20 degrees in the sitting room we would not and there are times we don't want heat or even to heat the whole house we like cooler bedrooms 20 degrees or below.

I've tried to explain this to you a few times now. The idea here is that it maintains the same temperature all the time. You find the temp that suits you and it maintains that. There is no need to control it up or down. Its called weather compensating controls.

You can have lower temps in bedrooms if you wish and again it will maintain that.

Deleted User wrote: »

It can also get very humid in Ireland and when it's very humid we might find 20 degrees too uncomfortable so no, thinking about it now I don't think heap pump would suit us at all.

I like heat when I want it and cool when I want it and no long lags in both or for adjustment.

No lags. Its constant and you have fresh air all the time with the heat recovery so its not humid either. I think you need to experience it first hand in a house before coming to conclusions based on your current oil experience.

Deleted User wrote: »

Setting timers isn't what I'd call a chore can even be done with an app these days but I want as little as possible connected to the internet but I suppose you can or at least should be able to disable internet connectivity.

Setting them is easy but they have the issue of being a blunt instrument. They come on or off at the specified time and thats it. They don't account for any deviations (e.g. arriving home early, being away for a day, shift change etc). The beauty of the heat pump is it maintains a constant temp so timers are irrelevant. One less thing to think about and one less app to be fiddling with and it has low running costs. €700/yr for me in a 350m2 house. Lots of people on here with running costs half that!

Deleted User wrote: »

No not new tech but expensive with limited life for their cost and they still need energy to run.

Again, everything has limited life. No system will run forever, even your oil stove. A HP system that is in a well insulated house could run for 30yrs. Of course some parts (compressor and pumps mainly) will have died but should be able to be fixed and keep it running.

The cost is all relative. You need to run a TCO and also account for the comfort side of things (constant temp, humidity, ordering oil, apps, timers etc) and then decide whats best for you.

A bit like, why pay €40k+ for a BMW when a €15k Ford will also take you from A to B. Its horses for courses.

How can a heat pump heating system control humidity ? Surely it controls temp only ? I think such a system I would have to install AC also.

Perhaps I can be converted some day.....but for now I don't believe in the economics.

Maintaining the same temp is fine but for the times we want instant changes to temps I do not think a heat pump would be suitable for us but I could be wrong.

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

How can a heat pump heating system control humidity ? Surely it controls temp only ? I think such a system I would have to install AC also.

Perhaps I can be converted some day.....but for now I don't believe in the economics.

Maintaining the same temp is fine but for the times we want instant changes to temps I do not think a heat pump would be suitable for us but I could be wrong.

The HP doesn't control humidity. HRV affects that by cycling in fresh air and taking out stale air with very little heat loss.

If you have an airtight house you need ventilation otherwise you'll be opening windows to vent the house and thats a waste of good heat. HRV solves that.


You are right that if you want instant changes to heat a HP won't give you that. It takes hours to affect a temp change. However, if you are sitting in a room tonight watching TV at 20C and the air is fresh, why wouldn't the exact same environment be comfortable tomorrow night? Thats the point about the temp being constant there is no need for boosting heat. If its comfortable, its comfortable.

If you really need a heat boost just light a wood stove or something like that.

antoinolachtnai

If you really want to feel warm fast, an electric heater is still faster and more targeted than almost anything.

This is obviously not an overall solution to heating a home. But if the home is a very well insulated new home and the heat pump keeps the 'chill' off the house, it might do for the extra boost that you might need only very occasionally.

vincenzolorenzo

Deleted User wrote: »

Regarding the inverter, it won't use the inverter, it will be connected to the cars battery directly, the inverter will be in the V2G system.

How will that work? The electricity stored in the car's battery is DC and everything in the house needs AC so surely will need to run through inverter?

caddy16

Has anyone used all rads with a heat pump and how do they find it?

vincenzolorenzo

vincenzolorenzo wrote: »

How will that work? The electricity stored in the car's battery is DC and everything in the house needs AC so surely will need to run through inverter?

The V2G system (box) will have the inverter, this will connect to the house supply and I would hope it would only draw power from the grid when the demand is higher than the V2G can supply but no part of the cars electrical system apart from the battery management system will be active.

I come home from work, plug in and then the system takes over and draws power only from the battery and consumes work electricity and when I'm off shift I will power the house from night time electricity instead of peak electricity.

Eventually there'll be the option for the ESB to take energy from the battery and pay me for the electricity if I choose.

antoinolachtnai

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If you really want to feel warm fast, an electric heater is still faster and more targeted than almost anything.

This is obviously not an overall solution to heating a home. But if the home is a very well insulated new home and the heat pump keeps the 'chill' off the house, it might do for the extra boost that you might need only very occasionally.

Yes, if the house is that well insulated electric heating for a quick blast might be a good option more in the sitting room, 20 deg will be fine for the rest of the house.

On the contrary, electric heating is a fantastic solution to heating a house provided the electricity source is relatively green.

We are giving for free, substantial money to wind energy investors, which in my opinion is completely unacceptable, it gives nothing back to the tax payer so we should be subsidising a feed-in-tariff and the installation of solar PV and Wind turbines instead which will benefit the taxpayer.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

The HP doesn't control humidity. HRV affects that by cycling in fresh air and taking out stale air with very little heat loss.

If you have an airtight house you need ventilation otherwise you'll be opening windows to vent the house and thats a waste of good heat. HRV solves that.


You are right that if you want instant changes to heat a HP won't give you that. It takes hours to affect a temp change. However, if you are sitting in a room tonight watching TV at 20C and the air is fresh, why wouldn't the exact same environment be comfortable tomorrow night? Thats the point about the temp being constant there is no need for boosting heat. If its comfortable, its comfortable.

If you really need a heat boost just light a wood stove or something like that.

Well humidity could be a real issue for me with a heat pump system, the heat recovery idea is good but if it's only sucking in 70-90%+ humidity then that could make it very uncomfortable for us. I don't like humidity.

20 Deg and 70+ humidity would not be comfortable for me at all and I suspect for many people.

If for instance it's very humid in the bedroom I just turn on the AC, not as much of an issue now since we moved but the odd day/night it can be especially if I work nights and have to sleep during the day.

I guess I'm just very cautious of such a system as I've never experienced or lived with a heat pump and heat recovery system.

Does anyone know if you can get external blinds/shutters installed like I see in Germany ? I find these terrific for summer and in winter, these would be really ideal for an Irish climate against wind for poorly constructed Irish built windows and doors especially those from a company in Munster which seem to fall apart after 5+ years with 0 comeback and a 70 euro call out each time even if they have to get parts they charge you 70 to come out to tell you they need to charge 70 again when they come back with the part !!!!

This is what I'm talking about, they're really fantastic, why do we not do this in Ireland ? yes your windows would have to open in instead of out !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KePLmie7lE