Heat Pumps - post here.

13-10-2017 4:02pm

KCross wrote: »

Expensive is relative and no heating system pays for itself.

So, if thats the sum of your knowledge then fire away with the electric heaters!

The fire away with your heat pump if you know it all :-)

MENACE2010 · 13-10-2017 4:38pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The fire away with your heat pump if you know it all :-)

okay .. before we all lose the will to live .. the need for heat all depends A. the need of the individual B. the performance of the house ( hence there are passive houses no extra heat requirement needed)

heatpumps have come along , as well as oil fired heating and electrical heating reliabilty is a lot better . It really does not matter what you use as long as you can maintain a "climate" in your house that suits you.

we had oil.. did not like it( hassle) , we know have a heatpump love it as the house is a constant temperature .. In my younger days in dublin rented a room with electrical heater ( not so hot) , so I have seen the spectrum it all worked I was warm and comfy

There will always be a debate on what is better , more or less efficient .. what I realised in the end while building is what do i want to achieve and what is the biggest problem .. to me it was conveince was key , even temperature and that my house performed well enough that the amount of Kw/H needed to heat the house is limited at best. That would translate is lower energy bill .. thats it . .your house is where you live its not a lab.. or experiment. .you pick what suits you .. not matter how outlandish it might seem

KCross · 13-10-2017 4:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Electric heaters are not expensive to run in a very well insulated air tight house. Thermostats and timers do all the flicking, I don't have to do anything. Storage heater can be used in the living area if needs be or oil.

Expensive to run is a relative term.... bog standard electric heater using a resistive element will be 4+ times more expensive per kWh of energy relative to a heat pump... so in my book thats expensive.

So, if it costs €300/yr to heat your house with a HP you can expect an electric heater to be €1200!

The comfort you get from a heat pump/UFH system is also far superior to an electric heater so Im willing (others won't be) to pay a slight premium for that.

Deleted User wrote: »

Hot water can be heated by cheap off peak electricity in Summer as now and/or by using the oil stove which currently does not heat water or rads.

Heated with off peak electricity by what? Immersion?
i.e. another inefficient energy waster.

Deleted User wrote: »

No I'm not a fan of electric showers in houses that heat the water by oil, gas or solid fuels, it's a complete waste of energy.

This is what I don't get. You rail against electric showers which heat just the amount of water thats required but you have no issue with electric heaters and immersion heating of hot water!??

All 3 of those are the same thing from a tech perspective... resistive heating.

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't get you with smart meters ? I already use most of the house electricity requirements during peak usage. My Partner won't run the dishwasher at night and now runs the washing machine mostly during the day because she has to work so it's not convenient to hang up clothes before she goes to work. Water is heated when necessary on of peak electricity during the warmer months.

The smart meter point is that everyone will have a smart meter in the next 5yrs or so. That will probably mean more expensive electricity during the peak times of the day. If you come home and flick on your electric heaters you will be paying through the nose to heat your house... airtight or not!

KCross · 13-10-2017 4:51pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The fire away with your heat pump if you know it all :-)

tbf, I never said I knew it all and it isn't one size fits all. I'm not advocating everyone should have a HP.

As I said, everyone has their own requirements and budget and opinions on comfort levels but the reasons you give against HP are not based on reality and you repeat the same things on here multiple times so I feel the need to correct you.

Both of us are on the EV forum and we see people spouting untruths there and I know that drives you mad as well as me.... your untruths/misinformation on HP's is much the same.

bifl · 13-10-2017 5:30pm

Hi Folks,
I would appreciate it if any can report back on an A2W system installed close to the coast and how it's holding up to the elements. I'm thinking about an install for myself at 1.5km from a coastal estuary say and 3.0km from the sea proper.
I'd be interested in specific manufactures & what guarantees they give for such an install. PM me please if manufacture names being mentioned I presume!!
Also as per the post above the jifon/ glenenergy looks interesting - anyone have it installed ?
Thanks
Bifl

13-10-2017 8:50pm

KCross wrote: »

Expensive to run is a relative term.... bog standard electric heater using a resistive element will be 4+ times more expensive per kWh of energy relative to a heat pump... so in my book thats expensive.

So, if it costs €300/yr to heat your house with a HP you can expect an electric heater to be €1200!

The comfort you get from a heat pump/UFH system is also far superior to an electric heater so Im willing (others won't be) to pay a slight premium for that.

The heat pump will be running a lot more than individual room radiators and as it stands now we do not have the heating going all the time so it's not hard to imagine electric heaters wouldn't either in a much better insulated air tight house. A 6-9 Kw heat pump is 3 electric heaters.

KCross wrote: »

Heated with off peak electricity by what? Immersion?
i.e. another inefficient energy waster.

This is what I don't get. You rail against electric showers which heat just the amount of water thats required but you have no issue with electric heaters and immersion heating of hot water!??

All 3 of those are the same thing from a tech perspective... resistive heating.

The immersion is not wasting energy if I need it..... better than turning on the heating when I don't need it.......

Why would I use an electric shower that heats water if the heating is heating it for the majority of the year ? or if your heat pump heats the water why use an electric shower if it heats water ?

KCross wrote: »

The smart meter point is that everyone will have a smart meter in the next 5yrs or so. That will probably mean more expensive electricity during the peak times of the day. If you come home and flick on your electric heaters you will be paying through the nose to heat your house... airtight or not!

I don't see why smart meters have to make electricity more expensive , am I missing something ? Yes I know they're being forced upon us with the illusion that it will in some way benefit us, in reality it will benefit the utility but I still don't see how it will make electricity more expensive.

Anyway if passive houses don't need so much energy why install a heat pump at all ?

13-10-2017 8:55pm

MENACE2010 wrote: »

we had oil.. did not like it( hassle) , we know have a heatpump love it as the house is a constant temperature .. In my younger days in dublin rented a room with electrical heater ( not so hot) , so I have seen the spectrum it all worked I was warm and comfy

See I'm not so sure it would suit me, I like the concept of course but I think of the weather today for instance, horribly humid, and if the heat pump was maintaining a constant 21-22 Deg C in the house I'd be baking and have windows open, or have to look into AC fighting the heat pump .

Tis is what turns me off the idea.

Oil if fine if it's installed correctly with the proper controls and each room is individually controlled.

KCross · 14-10-2017 11:43am

Deleted User wrote: »

The heat pump will be running a lot more than individual room radiators and as it stands now we do not have the heating going all the time so it's not hard to imagine electric heaters wouldn't either in a much better insulated air tight house. A 6-9 Kw heat pump is 3 electric heaters.

Why would the HP need to run more? It has the same amount of "work" to do as the electric heaters but it does it much more efficiently so the opposite is actually true. My HP isn't running today but my house is at 21C

Your statement about 6-9kW HP being the same as 3 electric heaters is proving my point about your lack of understanding. A 9kW HP does not pull 9kW's from your electricity. The 9kW's is the HP's output, not its input!!

A good HP will have a COP (Coefficient of Performance) of 4+, some go to 5-6. So, a 9kW HP with a COP of say 4 means it is only pulling about 2kW (same as a kettle) from your electricity while it is running to give 9kW's worth of heat..... and while that is running its maintaining the temp in your entire house, not just heating one room.... which is all your 2kW electric heater can do! Now stick one of those 2kW heaters into each room and watch your electricity bill!

Deleted User wrote: »

The immersion is not wasting energy if I need it..... better than turning on the heating when I don't need it.......

ok, maybe its not wasting it but it is doing it inefficiently.... same reason you hate electric showers.... its a resistive heater so a kW in is a kW out. Not an efficient use of electricity relative to a HP where a kW in is 4kW+ out.

Deleted User wrote: »

Why would I use an electric shower that heats water if the heating is heating it for the majority of the year ? or if your heat pump heats the water why use an electric shower if it heats water ?

If you have a HP you don't use an electric shower. You let the HP heat the water because thats more efficient.

The reason I asked you about hot water is that you need some system to heat the water and usually the system to heat hot water is the same system that heats the house. You've spoken a lot about space heating but not about hot water so Im wondering how you plan to do that without incurring some costs for stoves, oil, maintenance etc.... the HP does it all very efficiently and fully automated.

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't see why smart meters have to make electricity more expensive , am I missing something ? Yes I know they're being forced upon us with the illusion that it will in some way benefit us, in reality it will benefit the utility but I still don't see how it will make electricity more expensive.

Smart meters will be used to discourage use during peak times. That will be achieved by a combination of price increases during peak times and reduced prices during off peak times. Your electric heater idea will involve you turning them on during peak times.... hence the most expensive electricity available.

HP's will be the opposite, they will build up an energy store during off peak times and release it during the day. So, not only is the HP more efficient but it is also running at a much cheaper electricity rate.

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyway if passive houses don't need so much energy why install a heat pump at all ?

If you have a true passive house you don't need a HP. You just need a method to heat hot water.

But don't be fooled into thinking that you can take your 1980's bungalow and magically make that passive. Passive standard is expensive. In reality you will be short of passive and will still require some form of space heating and of course hot water.

You have a mental block about heat pumps like people have a mental block about EV's. I'd urge you to go to a house with a HP and experience it first hand yourself and get feedback from people who have them. Its not like HP's are new tech and we've all been hoodwinked into buying a white elephant.

There are of course more ways to heat a house than a HP. Its not the only option but electric heaters is not the way to go, imo.

KCross · 14-10-2017 11:47am

Deleted User wrote: »

See I'm not so sure it would suit me, I like the concept of course but I think of the weather today for instance, horribly humid, and if the heat pump was maintaining a constant 21-22 Deg C in the house I'd be baking and have windows open, or have to look into AC fighting the heat pump .

Tis is what turns me off the idea.

Oil if fine if it's installed correctly with the proper controls and each room is individually controlled.

Humidity and HP's conflated again... :eek::eek:
If you don't like 21C in the house just lower the settings on the HP. You get to decide what temp you want. You can even have lower temps for the bedrooms.

How does oil and individual room control solve your humidity issue?

The HRV will reduce your humidity. I don't have any humidity issues in my house. And I have clean, fresh air 24/7.

14-10-2017 1:17pm

KCross wrote: »

Your statement about 6-9kW HP being the same as 3 electric heaters is proving my point about your lack of understanding. A 9kW HP does not pull 9kW's from your electricity. The 9kW's is the HP's output, not its input!!

A good HP will have a COP (Coefficient of Performance) of 4+, some go to 5-6. So, a 9kW HP with a COP of say 4 means it is only pulling about 2kW (same as a kettle) from your electricity while it is running to give 9kW's worth of heat..... and while that is running its maintaining the temp in your entire house, not just heating one room.... which is all your 2kW electric heater can do! Now stick one of those 2kW heaters into each room and watch your electricity bill!

Oh right, I consider myself educated then, why did no one tell me that 9 Kw HP is not consuming 9kw FFS.

That would be an impressive system if it would only pull 2 Kw. (IF)

KCross wrote: »

ok, maybe its not wasting it but it is doing it inefficiently.... same reason you hate electric showers.... its a resistive heater so a kW in is a kW out. Not an efficient use of electricity relative to a HP where a kW in is 4kW+ out./QUOTE]

Not not wasting like electric shower because electric showers waste electricity when there is usually hot water in the tank heated my oil/gas etc.

KCross wrote: »

If you have a HP you don't use an electric shower. You let the HP heat the water because thats more efficient.

That's the same with oil/gas, you don't need electric shower.

KCross wrote: »

Smart meters will be used to discourage use during peak times. That will be achieved by a combination of price increases during peak times and reduced prices during off peak times. Your electric heater idea will involve you turning them on during peak times.... hence the most expensive electricity available.

HP's will be the opposite, they will build up an energy store during off peak times and release it during the day. So, not only is the HP more efficient but it is also running at a much cheaper electricity rate.

Most people can't control their peak usage but there will be certain loads they can operate during off peak times.

Storage heaters also do this and are much more efficient today, but they're not cheap + installation then I'd probably need 3 phase including EV.

But, V2G can mean running the house on stored off peak electricity. It will be interesting to see what happens here.

KCross wrote: »

If you have a true passive house you don't need a HP. You just need a method to heat hot water.

But don't be fooled into thinking that you can take your 1980's bungalow and magically make that passive. Passive standard is expensive. In reality you will be short of passive and will still require some form of space heating and of course hot water.

No I'm not thinking it will be magic or cheap at all and something will have to give.

KCross wrote: »

You have a mental block about heat pumps like people have a mental block about EV's. I'd urge you to go to a house with a HP and experience it first hand yourself and get feedback from people who have them. Its not like HP's are new tech and we've all been hoodwinked into buying a white elephant.

There are of course more ways to heat a house than a HP. Its not the only option but electric heaters is not the way to go, imo.

Experiencing a heat pump would be living with one not going to a house for a few hrs.

14-10-2017 1:19pm

KCross wrote: »

Humidity and HP's conflated again... :eek::eek:
If you don't like 21C in the house just lower the settings on the HP. You get to decide what temp you want. You can even have lower temps for the bedrooms.

How does oil and individual room control solve your humidity issue?

The HRV will reduce your humidity. I don't have any humidity issues in my house. And I have clean, fresh air 24/7.

Oil doesn't solve my humidity, I don't have damp but it can get uncomfortable. I have AC to solve this if needs be. Lowering the temp won't lower humidity and if it's 70+ % outside then how does the HRV control this if it's sucking in more humid air ?

We rarely use the heat in the bedroom , the coldest of days perhaps.

caddy16 · 17-10-2017 4:50pm

Has anyone found a huge difference in suppliers ground source heat pump specs for a new build. Mine vary from 6KW to 12KW with each company having been given the same spec, heat demand etc

In peoples experience is a 6kw heat pump adequate for a 240 sq mt house for 5 people?

I will be discussing this with an Arch Tech next week but wanted to hear from first hand experiences in advance.

exaisle · 17-10-2017 5:11pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Lowering the temp won't lower humidity and if it's 70+ % outside then how does the HRV control this if it's sucking in more humid air ?

The process of heat exchanging causes condensation in the actual exchanger, so HRV machines have an outlet to get rid of the excess water.

I have MHRV and have had for several years. The air in my house is dry and comfortable and it's easy to heat...you don't have to heat the water too. It's also comfortable for anybody with allergies as the air is filtered as it enters the heat exchanger....

17-10-2017 5:15pm

exaisle wrote: »

The process of heat exchanging causes condensation in the actual exchanger, so HRV machines have an outlet to get rid of the excess water.

I have MHRV and have had for several years. The air in my house is dry and comfortable and it's easy to heat...you don't have to heat the water too. It's also comfortable for anybody with allergies as the air is filtered as it enters the heat exchanger....

Yeah the filtering ability interests me a lot. It heats water ? that's new to me.

Interesting system.

crf450 · 18-10-2017 10:31am

Hi all,

Apologies if this has been covered before.

I have been talking to suppliers about installing geothermal and have been advised by 2 suppliers to install air to water instead of geothermal as size house is 2800sqft new buid.

Does this make sense due to size of the house that air water is better option ??

Also I was advised to install PV panel which will give 2 kw return if operating at 100% which I know is not possible due to cloud cover and season eg summer winter etc

Whats peoples thoughts ??

Thanks in advance

KCross · 18-10-2017 11:42am

The size of the house on its own is irrelevant to whether you should get A2W or Geo.

Is that supplier only doing A2W, i.e. vested interest in convincing you to go with A2W?

If they install/support both and are impartial then they might be looking at your overall heat demand and deciding that A2W is sufficient and thats fair enough, but you need to watch these salesmen... they typically don't have your best interests in mind.

BryanF · 18-10-2017 2:50pm

some threads merged

Tefral · 18-10-2017 2:58pm

crf450 wrote: »

Hi all,

Apologies if this has been covered before.

I have been talking to suppliers about installing geothermal and have been advised by 2 suppliers to install air to water instead of geothermal as size house is 2800sqft new buid.

Does this make sense due to size of the house that air water is better option ??

Also I was advised to install PV panel which will give 2 kw return if operating at 100% which I know is not possible due to cloud cover and season eg summer winter etc

Whats peoples thoughts ??

Thanks in advance

Just to give you a heads up we installed 2kw of panels into a project and over the last three weeks its been generating an average of 52w...

18-10-2017 3:23pm

Tefral wrote: »

Just to give you a heads up we installed 2kw of panels into a project and over the last three weeks its been generating an average of 52w...

What's 52 w ? you need to be a little clearer, what does it generate over a day, week ?

In Summer you'll generate vastly more than you can use which is why in Ireland due to the very long Summer daylight hours and very short Winter, a feed-in-tariff is essential for Solar PV so you can buy back all that Summer Excess when you need it in winter to run the heat pump or whatever.

You'll be surprised how much power you will generate in Ireland with solar PV. A way to monitor energy generated would be very useful.

antoinolachtnai · 18-10-2017 8:37pm

52W means 52W I imagine. Over one hour that would be 0.052 kWh.

The problem is that the grid doesn’t need that much power on a sunny summer day. Consumption is low (lower because houses with PV panels stop drawing) and there is plenty PV on the grid already.

18-10-2017 9:19pm

Plenty PV on the Grid ? I doubt that.

We have far too much wind power when it's windy and not enough when it isn't, Solar PV can greatly make up the shortfall when wind energy is low.

There's huge potential for solar PV in Ireland. Battery storage isn't an option here for the reason that the difference between winter and summer generation is huge, so you'll struggle to fill a battery in winter and have not nearly enough storage for Summer. The only real solution is Grid storage. The more electric cars the more energy can be stored and the more energy that can be available at peak demand from these batteries.

antoinolachtnai · 18-10-2017 9:33pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Plenty PV on the Grid ? I doubt that.

Can you provide figures? A quick look back at the summer indicates that the SEM price for electricity is very low when the sun shines, and the interconnector is importing.

We have far too much wind power when it's windy and not enough when it isn't, Solar PV can greatly make up the shortfall when wind energy is low.

The shortfall is shortly after sunset during the winter. The wind sometimes blows then at least. The sun never shines.

There's huge potential for solar PV in Ireland. Battery storage isn't an option here for the reason that the difference between winter and summer generation is huge, so you'll struggle to fill a battery in winter and have not nearly enough storage for Summer. The only real solution is Grid storage. The more electric cars the more energy can be stored and the more energy that can be available at peak demand from these batteries.

Can you put numbers to your claim about there being huge potential? How would grid storage be achieved?

18-10-2017 10:33pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Can you provide figures? A quick look back at the summer indicates that the SEM price for electricity is very low when the sun shines, and the interconnector is importing.

What ? I don't get this or it's relevance.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The shortfall is shortly after sunset during the winter. The wind sometimes blows then at least. The sun never shines.

My point is that currently we have all our eggs in one basket, there is a huge amount of Solar PV applications I remember reading in one of the papers, Times, Independent, can't remember right now with the lack of tax payer support stopping these Solar installations, the Governments gives millions of tax payers money to wind energy companies but not for Solar PV installations. Not tha tI agree with giving millions of tax payers money to support foreign companies with absolutely nothing in return to the tax payer.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Can you put numbers to your claim about there being huge potential? How would grid storage be achieved?

Huge potential, it's evident, we got as much Solar PV potential as Northern Germany.

Grid storage can be achieved with Electric cars. Or at least partially. While they're plugged in the charge on the available green energy. When the grid needs it it sucks it back out again at your preference of course.

By the time most people start buying electric electrics they'll have 60+ Kwh of storage and most will use 20 Kwh and less per day meaning substantial amount of potential storage will go unused unless connected to the grid.

exaisle · 19-10-2017 7:22am

Interesting system.

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah the filtering ability interests me a lot. It heats water ? that's new to me.

Interesting system.

:-) Guffaw...

exaisle · 19-10-2017 7:34am

Deleted User wrote: »

Grid storage can be achieved with Electric cars. Or at least partially. While they're plugged in the charge on the available green energy. When the grid needs it it sucks it back out again at your preference of course.

By the time most people start buying electric electrics they'll have 60+ Kwh of storage and most will use 20 Kwh and less per day meaning substantial amount of potential storage will go unused unless connected to the grid.

Interesting point. I'm wondering though, how efficient is the battery charging process? Presumably, pumping 10amps at 230v into a battery won't give you 2.3Kwh?

19-10-2017 9:06am

exaisle wrote: »

Interesting point. I'm wondering though, how efficient is the battery charging process? Presumably, pumping 10amps at 230v into a battery won't give you 2.3Kwh?

Charging the Nissan Leaf is 90% efficient.

Leaf charges between about 10 and 28 amps.

Grid storage systems such as Nissan's V2G will almost certainly connect directly to the main traction battery. I can't see it working any other way.

I would also imagine this system will prevent power being sent to the grid from the EV battery at your preference so that in countries like Ireland with no Feed-In-Tariff and non likely for many years will be able to charge with off peak electricity and use that energy during the day or when they come home from work for cooking, washing machine/dryer and dishwasher and a heat pump etc, basically most of the heavy loads in the house that will usually only run on peak electricity.

crf450 · 19-10-2017 9:49am

KCross wrote: »

The size of the house on its own is irrelevant to whether you should get A2W or Geo.

Is that supplier only doing A2W, i.e. vested interest in convincing you to go with A2W?

If they install/support both and are impartial then they might be looking at your overall heat demand and deciding that A2W is sufficient and thats fair enough, but you need to watch these salesmen... they typically don't have your best interests in mind.

Thanks for reply Kcross, no supplier is offering both geothermal and A2W. To be fair he gave alot information and explained system fairly well he couldnt answer one or 2 questions. but he was basically saying i need A2w due to soze house and that geotehrmal was over kill. I only gave him size house no drawings or any otehr info but from size house he said he knoew that A2w was best option. How have people made there decisons aside from cost ? I would agree be careful at end day they want make sale and may not have our best interset at heart.
Then I was talking to another installer yesterday and he said goethermal was only way go and that A2W was not as good or efficent basically waste of time. Im completly confused to be honest and unable make decision every supplier I talk to has differnet suggestion and I have no experience base my decision off . Not sure what to do ??

crf450 · 19-10-2017 9:51am

Tefral wrote: »

crf450 wrote: »

Hi all,

Apologies if this has been covered before.

I have been talking to suppliers about installing geothermal and have been advised by 2 suppliers to install air to water instead of geothermal as size house is 2800sqft new buid.

Does this make sense due to size of the house that air water is better option ??

Also I was advised to install PV panel which will give 2 kw return if operating at 100% which I know is not possible due to cloud cover and season eg summer winter etc

Whats peoples thoughts ??

Thanks in advance

Just to give you a heads up we installed 2kw of panels into a project and over the last three weeks its been generating an average of 52w...

52w sounds like fairly bad output ??, or is it not bad for time year ? why would i install if output would be that low ?? Sorry for all question I have no experience in this area if they sound silly

Tefral · 19-10-2017 9:53am

crf450 wrote: »

Thanks for reply Kcross, no supplier is offering both geothermal and A2W. To be fair he gave alot information and explained system fairly well he couldnt answer one or 2 questions. but he was basically saying i need A2w due to soze house and that geotehrmal was over kill. I only gave him size house no drawings or any otehr info but from size house he said he knoew that A2w was best option. How have people made there decisons aside from cost ? I would agree be careful at end day they want make sale and may not have our best interset at heart.
Then I was talking to another installer yesterday and he said goethermal was only way go and that A2W was not as good or efficent basically waste of time. Im completly confused to be honest and unable make decision every supplier I talk to has differnet suggestion and I have no experience base my decision off . Not sure what to do ??

Air to water has lower up front costs typically 12k installed with rads upstairs and ground floor underfloor heating. Geothermal is roughly 18k for the same thing excluding the cost of the bore hole.

Geothermal is more efficient as the ground temps don't fluctuate as much as air does.

What you need to work out is, will you make back the ~6k over the lifetime of the heat pump (typically 20 years) also, the air to water pump will most likely give up before the Geothermal one will.

Tefral · 19-10-2017 9:56am

crf450 wrote: »

52w sounds like fairly bad output ??, or is it not bad for time year ? why would i install if output would be that low ?? Sorry for all question I have no experience in this area if they sound silly

Its dire to be honest. I work for an electrical contractor, its generally accepted that unless you have a feed in tarrif or something like an electrical car at home charging during the day that PV is a waste of time. We install these things on public buildings and new builds as part of Part L building regs and to be honest the only reason they are going on the buildings is that its a check box that needs to be ticked and to bring up a theoretical BER to a min of A3

Heat Pumps - post here.

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