Heat Pumps - post here.

caddy16

Tefral wrote: »

Air to water has lower up front costs typically 12k installed with rads upstairs and ground floor underfloor heating. Geothermal is roughly 18k for the same thing excluding the cost of the bore hole.

Geothermal is more efficient as the ground temps don't fluctuate as much as air does.

What you need to work out is, will you make back the ~6k over the lifetime of the heat pump (typically 20 years) also, the air to water pump will most likely give up before the Geothermal one will.

I got a quote from an installer who does both and the geothermal is actually working out slightly cheaper - its horizontal collectors so when I include the digging cost it pretty much the same cost.

crf450

Tefral wrote: »

crf450 wrote: »

Thanks for reply Kcross, no supplier is offering both geothermal and A2W. To be fair he gave alot information and explained system fairly well he couldnt answer one or 2 questions. but he was basically saying i need A2w due to soze house and that geotehrmal was over kill. I only gave him size house no drawings or any otehr info but from size house he said he knoew that A2w was best option. How have people made there decisons aside from cost ? I would agree be careful at end day they want make sale and may not have our best interset at heart.
Then I was talking to another installer yesterday and he said goethermal was only way go and that A2W was not as good or efficent basically waste of time. Im completly confused to be honest and unable make decision every supplier I talk to has differnet suggestion and I have no experience base my decision off . Not sure what to do ??

Air to water has lower up front costs typically 12k installed with rads upstairs and ground floor underfloor heating. Geothermal is roughly 18k for the same thing excluding the cost of the bore hole.

Geothermal is more efficient as the ground temps don't fluctuate as much as air does.

What you need to work out is, will you make back the ~6k over the lifetime of the heat pump (typically 20 years) also, the air to water pump will most likely give up before the Geothermal one will.

Thanks for reply Tefral, very valid points to consider and I agree completely with you.

I have wondered though people always seem to mention will you make back the cost system over lifetime but does that really matter if system you install offers you excellent heat and system runs well and is reliable and meets your requirements .

You can buy car that you wont ever recover cost . The cost of your house e.g mortgage you will never recover there lots things we buy and use that are essential to every day life that we never recover cost same as solar panels you mighten recover cost but you have hot water when  ever you need I think its then worth paying to have facility what ever it may be. Im thinking that if system runs well is reasonable cheap run and meets my heating requirements then its no brain er . Or am i missing something in my thinking ??

Tefral

crf450 wrote: »

Thanks for reply Tefral, very valid points to consider and I agree completely with you.

I have wondered though people always seem to mention will you make back the cost system over lifetime but does that really matter if system you install offers you excellent heat and system runs well and is reliable and meets your requirements .

You can buy car that you wont ever recover cost . The cost of your house e.g mortgage you will never recover there lots things we buy and use that are essential to every day life that we never recover cost same as solar panels you mighten recover cost but you have hot water when  ever you need I think its then worth paying to have facility what ever it may be. Im thinking that if system runs well is reasonable cheap run and meets my heating requirements then its no brain er . Or am i missing something in my thinking ??

Well its based on the premise of throwing away money. If both systems do the same job and one has a capital cost that you wont make back then you might aswell throw away the money.

In this case Geothermal is more efficient so will eat into any captial cost over the life of the equipment, but if it never makes back that difference then you are just wasting money. There are other factors to consider such as maintenance and your own time with that but these are minimal really.

If it works out you never make the money back then your better off taking the wife and kids off for a holiday or invest it in insulation or something.

Tefral

caddy16 wrote: »

I got a quote from an installer who does both and the geothermal is actually working out slightly cheaper - its horizontal collectors so when I include the digging cost it pretty much the same cost.

Really? First time in my life ive heard of this, proceed with caution

crf450

Tefral wrote: »

crf450 wrote: »

Thanks for reply Tefral, very valid points to consider and I agree completely with you.

I have wondered though people always seem to mention will you make back the cost system over lifetime but does that really matter if system you install offers you excellent heat and system runs well and is reliable and meets your requirements .

You can buy car that you wont ever recover cost . The cost of your house e.g mortgage you will never recover there lots things we buy and use that are essential to every day life that we never recover cost same as solar panels you mighten recover cost but you have hot water when  ever you need I think its then worth paying to have facility what ever it may be. Im thinking that if system runs well is reasonable cheap run and meets my heating requirements then its no brain er . Or am i missing something in my thinking ??

Well its based on the premise of throwing away money. If both systems do the same job and one has a capital cost that you wont make back then you might aswell throw away the money.

In this case Geothermal is more efficient so will eat into any captial cost over the life of the equipment, but if it never makes back that difference then you are just wasting money. There are other factors to consider such as maintenance and your own time with that but these are minimal really.

If it works out you never make the money back then your better off taking the wife and kids off for a holiday or invest it in insulation or something.

Very valid points , I like idea of holiday and more insulation

caddy16

Tefral wrote: »

Really? First time in my life ive heard of this, proceed with caution

House is 240sq mts. They've quoted for 6kw geo and 9kw A2W. Very reputable well know company. In saying that other companies have suggested 12kw geo heat pump for the same spec!
Meeting my own arch tech next week to review the quotes I received.

crf450

Tefral wrote: »

crf450 wrote: »

Thanks for reply Tefral, very valid points to consider and I agree completely with you.

I have wondered though people always seem to mention will you make back the cost system over lifetime but does that really matter if system you install offers you excellent heat and system runs well and is reliable and meets your requirements .

You can buy car that you wont ever recover cost . The cost of your house e.g mortgage you will never recover there lots things we buy and use that are essential to every day life that we never recover cost same as solar panels you mighten recover cost but you have hot water when  ever you need I think its then worth paying to have facility what ever it may be. Im thinking that if system runs well is reasonable cheap run and meets my heating requirements then its no brain er . Or am i missing something in my thinking ??

Well its based on the premise of throwing away money. If both systems do the same job and one has a capital cost that you wont make back then you might aswell throw away the money.

In this case Geothermal is more efficient so will eat into any captial cost over the life of the equipment, but if it never makes back that difference then you are just wasting money. There are other factors to consider such as maintenance and your own time with that but these are minimal really.

If it works out you never make the money back then your better off taking the wife and kids off for a holiday or invest it in insulation or something.

I hadn't really considered that makes sense, I like idea of holiday and more insulation

Tefral

caddy16 wrote: »

House is 240sq mts. They've quoted for 6kw geo and 9kw A2W. Very reputable well know company. In saying that other companies have suggested 12kw geo heat pump for the same spec!
Meeting my own arch tech next week to review the quotes I received.

Ya you need to be very careful, have you a DEAP Calc done, that will size the heatpump you need. Having a bigger pump than required will mean the pump goes on and off alot more which leads to more wear and tear on the components.

KCross

crf450 wrote: »

Thanks for reply Kcross, no supplier is offering both geothermal and A2W. To be fair he gave alot information and explained system fairly well he couldnt answer one or 2 questions. but he was basically saying i need A2w due to soze house and that geotehrmal was over kill. I only gave him size house no drawings or any otehr info but from size house he said he knoew that A2w was best option. How have people made there decisons aside from cost ? I would agree be careful at end day they want make sale and may not have our best interset at heart.
Then I was talking to another installer yesterday and he said goethermal was only way go and that A2W was not as good or efficent basically waste of time. Im completly confused to be honest and unable make decision every supplier I talk to has differnet suggestion and I have no experience base my decision off . Not sure what to do ??

Tefral wrote: »

Air to water has lower up front costs typically 12k installed with rads upstairs and ground floor underfloor heating. Geothermal is roughly 18k for the same thing excluding the cost of the bore hole.

Geothermal is more efficient as the ground temps don't fluctuate as much as air does.

What you need to work out is, will you make back the ~6k over the lifetime of the heat pump (typically 20 years) also, the air to water pump will most likely give up before the Geothermal one will.

I generally agree with Tefral here. Im not entirely sure about the €6k figure though. That very much depends on who is doing the quoting and what systems you get.

A bit like getting a quote for a Ford Fiesta or a Merc. Both do the same job but one costs more.

I think the price difference is much closer than €6k but you have the quotes in front of you so you know best.

As Tefral said, Geo is better and will last longer and you have to weigh up the extra initial capital costs for Geo versus the ongoing running and maintenance costs of the A2W and decide what suits you.

Also bear in mind that A2W is more likely to require a complete replacement of the unit in 10-15yrs as opposed to a repair. The Geo should be fine and only require a repair so you could find you are making the capital outlay of the A2W a second time in 10-15yrs. Its a judgement call you have to make but don't make it just based on the A2W being cheaper day one.

SeanHarty

When to comes to sizing the Heat Pump different companies use different outside air temps and they don't allow for the outside air temp dropping off, this is very important to check.

as you said above one company quoted you a 6kW and another a 9kW, this MAY be because the first company sized that you would need 6kW at an outside air temp of +2 where the other company may have taken into account your location and thus quoted a 9kW based on the outside air temp being -5.

be sure to check the performance drop off of the units as well because if they need to call on the electrical back up this will increase your bills.

also there is defiantly 1 if not more company's that will quote for both A2W and Geo.

goat2

I find it all hard to understand, so when winter comes, air to water, is going to cost a lot, as geothermal, I understand that of course air is colder in winter, which will have pump on a lot, then my question is

would a person be far better off,
insulating house to highest standard, and putting in an oil central heating system, as anyway the esb bills are sky high with the other two,
Insulation being the key in all of this anyway

MicktheMan

goat2 wrote: »

I find it all hard to understand, so when winter comes, air to water, is going to cost a lot, as geothermal, I understand that of course air is colder in winter, which will have pump on a lot, then my question is

would a person be far better off,
insulating house to highest standard, and putting in an oil central heating system, as anyway the esb bills are sky high with the other two,
Insulation being the key in all of this anyway

Don't make the common mistake of overdoing the insulation to the detriment of airtightness (and ventilation of course). Get this right and the supply of the small level of heating required is easy.

gooner99

goat2 wrote: »

I find it all hard to understand, so when winter comes, air to water, is going to cost a lot, as geothermal, I understand that of course air is colder in winter, which will have pump on a lot, then my question is

would a person be far better off,
insulating house to highest standard, and putting in an oil central heating system, as anyway the esb bills are sky high with the other two,
Insulation being the key in all of this anyway

Yes maxing insulation and airtightness will result in a very low heat demand that could be satisfied in many ways. Unfortunately our regulations mean we have to add in renewables which means the heating system will be quite expensive whatever way you go. Even houses that meet and exceed passive standard are ending up with heating systems that are expensive and given the low running costs the outlay may never see payback.

gooner99

How much roughly for bore holes for Geo these days?

Given that the outdoor unit of an a2w will likely need replacing in 10-15 years (and I reckon long before that if you live by the sea), is it only the outdoor unit that would need replacing or are there associated components that need replacing?

What roughly is the cost of the outdoor unit on it's own?

There's nothing wrong with A2W pumps if a house is that well insulated and air tight and you have night rate electricity. They become less efficient the colder it gets and a prolonged cold weather spell might make it a tad bit expensive but for most of the time it should provide you with plenty of comfort , I'm no expert though. You'd never get payback on Geothermal if your heating requirements are tiny,

You could also look at a wood stove as a backup. Or an oil stove, I have one of these and they're fantastic, consumes 0.4 ish liters of oil on Min setting for the 9 Kw stove and less for the 6 Kw stove. Can leave them on 24x7 also and not have to fuel them like solid fuel or wood.

Condenser

gooner99 wrote: »

How much roughly for bore holes for Geo these days?

Given that the outdoor unit of an a2w will likely need replacing in 10-15 years (and I reckon long before that if you live by the sea), is it only the outdoor unit that would need replacing or are there associated components that need replacing?

What roughly is the cost of the outdoor unit on it's own?

If it's a small heat pump, less than 8kw then a bore can be cheaper than horizontal in some cases.
You'll also find a lot of a2w units have such a high turnover of models that replacing just the outdoor won't be an option in 5yrs time never mind 10yrs as the new outdoor won't be compatible with the old indoor.
Geo will give you lower running costs, longer life and a much better roi over it's lifetime.

SeanHarty

gooner99 wrote: »

How much roughly for bore holes for Geo these days?

Given that the outdoor unit of an a2w will likely need replacing in 10-15 years (and I reckon long before that if you live by the sea), is it only the outdoor unit that would need replacing or are there associated components that need replacing?

What roughly is the cost of the outdoor unit on it's own?

When it comes to the bore holes I'm In the dark on that one I'm afraid.

some heat pump manufactures supply a coating to protect the Heatpump from the sea air, but to be honest this only needs to be installed if your quite close to the sea.

I'm not sure if your looking for the cost of an A2W outdoor unit or a geothermal, but as far as the A2W is concerned it can be anything from 2.5k - 6k just for the outdoor unit not including a tank/buffer.

mrawkward

Anyone looked at/fitted Gas Absorption Heat Pumps on here?

top_dog

Hi, just wondering how A2W copes in current cold snap. Sub zero temperatures. Are running costs going through the roof?
Are they more likely to break in this weather?

MENACE2010

top_dog wrote: »

Hi, just wondering how A2W copes in current cold snap. Sub zero temperatures. Are running costs going through the roof?
Are they more likely to break in this weather?

Hi, yes the a2w pump has to work harder with the drop in temperature, does it break ehm... No would be the correct answer, these pumps work in cold weather as well as milder weather. Again the better the insulation =less heat loss = less heat demand

I will compare my two monthly usage from this year with last year and let you know the difference

mrawkward

top_dog wrote: »

Hi, just wondering how A2W copes in current cold snap. Sub zero temperatures. Are running costs going through the roof?
Are they more likely to break in this weather?

Mine to just now 41% of November total so far...happy days!

antoinolachtnai

Are you inland (where lows are more extreme) or near the coast?

mrawkward

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Are you inland (where lows are more extreme) or near the coast?

South Dublin coast

top_dog

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Are you inland (where lows are more extreme) or near the coast?

Midlands... Yea lows more extreme. Cold set to last for week. Was -8 one night. I don't have a2w but considering getting one in new build.

mrawkward

They do have a defrost electric heater for the extremes but if you are in a cold area your heating bills are always going to be higher than a more temperate climate. New build will be so well insulated that it will require much less energy to heat compared to an older retrofit. Night rate electricity will make the cost of any defrosting minuscule, as such low temps are always at night.
Mine is in a 140m/2 1970s big window bungalow, external insulation, extra attic ins, dg windows etc. A2W has reduced my heating bills by 70% and I am now at 21C 24/7/365. 3Kw PV in the new year will take it down further.

In much colder weather would it be better to use backup such as Gas / Wood stove and reduce demand/stress on the heat pump ? yes the electricity costs might still be cheaper than the Gas or wood but it will still reduce stresses on the heat pump ?

mrawkward

Deleted User wrote: »

In much colder weather would it be better to use backup such as Gas / Wood stove and reduce demand/stress on the heat pump ? yes the electricity costs might still be cheaper than the Gas or wood but it will still reduce stresses on the heat pump ?

How exactly do you stress a heat pump without running treacle through it?

youcancallmeal

My heat pump unit the other morning, still working away grand though and house is at constant 22degrees. The defrost function kicks in periodically and it's quite satisfying to see it all melt away quickly.

SeanHarty

top_dog wrote: »

Hi, just wondering how A2W copes in current cold snap. Sub zero temperatures. Are running costs going through the roof?
Are they more likely to break in this weather?

To be honest it depends on how the heat pump was originally sized, if like most companies its sized at an outside air temp of +2*C then you may be in trouble during the very cold snaps like the other night when it hit -8*C.

Some companies take this into account and size the heat pump at -5*C or -7*C depending on the area, in this case your heat pump should be fine even when the temp drops to these extreme lows but the reason this isn't done by everyone is because they are afraid of getting priced out of a job because they need a larger heat pump etc.

Take that new estate in Lucan near St.Catherines Park, cant think of the name, but it has had 6 heat pump faults since the night it hit -8*C.

when your getting a quote make sure to ask what outside air temp they have sized it at, it may mean getting a larger heat pump and costing a bit more upfront but will save you A LOT of hassle down the line.

bifl

Hi,
   By PM only, has anyone installed and experience of [font=arial, sans-serif]Geo-Tec heat pumps ? Not much out there on google so will take any feed back on A2W , Horizontal or [/font][font=arial, sans-serif]Vertical[/font]
[font=arial, sans-serif]Thanks ,[/font]
[font=arial, sans-serif]Bifl[/font]