Heat Pumps - post here.

Water John

A heat exchanger will take heat from any source. The well water drops about 2C I think. This particularly suits us in Ireland with our one off rural housing usually with our own well supply. This would not be common in other countries, hence it not being widely developed and marketed.
Great also if near a stream or lake.

KCross

The cost of drilling AND correctly lining two bore holes is usually the sticking point.

looksee

If you have a well there is already one borehole? What is the issue with lining?

Water John

Generally a borehole is lined to the rock, to prevent fall in. A sealed borehole however would be a higher cost operation and not needed for heating.

looksee

So the well for water would be a sealed borehole but the return bore would not be sealed? Does this leave the groundwater susceptible to contamination?

Water John

Most bore wells are not sealed, just lined. They probably should be sealed. Personally I would discharge to a watercourse, it's not grey water. Not sure of the guidelines/legalities of that.
Farmers use similar to precool milk with a plate cooler. The water is often used for yard washing afterwards.

looksee

Hmm. No watercourse, would have to be back to ground. Still its worth keeping in mind.

Calahonda52

Came across this recently when doing some research on Heat Pumps

I am familiar with degradation coefficient as a concept, but am puzzled by the oversized reference.
Any thoughts?

MOTM

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Came across this recently when doing some research on Heat Pumps

I am familiar with degradation coefficient as a concept, but am puzzled by the oversized reference.
Any thoughts?

Not sure if you meant to include a weblink there? However, reference ecodesign regulation 813/2013:

"‘degradation coefficient’ (Cdh) means the measure of efficiency loss due to cycling of heat pump space heaters or heat pump combination heaters; if Cdh is not determined by measurement then the default degradation coefficient is Cdh = 0,9;"

If the heat pump is oversized, it will cycle more. Declared COP applies if the unit can drop to the level of the heat demand. If the minimum COP of the unit is higher than the heat demand, then the degradation coefficient applies.

Calahonda52

MOTM wrote: »

Not sure if you meant to include a weblink there? However, reference ecodesign regulation 813/2013:

"‘degradation coefficient’ (Cdh) means the measure of efficiency loss due to cycling of heat pump space heaters or heat pump combination heaters; if Cdh is not determined by measurement then the default degradation coefficient is Cdh = 0,9;"

If the heat pump is oversized, it will cycle more. Declared COP applies if the unit can drop to the level of the heat demand. If the minimum COP of the unit is higher than the heat demand, then the degradation coefficient applies.

Many thanks!
Would you mind putting some numbers on the last sentence: say my heat demand is 8kW and I have a choice of a 7 or a 9 kW

sydthebeat

why would it cycle more if theres a proper interlock system set up to only demand a set space temp ??

would an oversized HP get to the required space temp quicker than say an under sized one, and would there therefore be a trade off with this degradation coefficient?

MOTM

I don't have answers to either of the above questions other than to say that my answer is based on what is in the ecodesign regs (813) and the gist of what is in EN14825 on this parameter. Maybe someone here who works for a heat pump supplier might have more insight than I do?

0lddog

sydthebeat wrote: »

why would it cycle more if theres a proper interlock system set up to only demand a set space temp ??........

Might this relate to units that turn off when hi set point is reached and turn on again when low set point is reached ?

In the A2A segment its many, many years since I came across a unit that wasnt inverter based ( and thus capable of 'modulation' as gas boiler guys might call it ).

Perhaps it is an issue in A2W ? a lot of those units seem to be very basic.

VonLuck

I'm currently looking at buying an apartment which has those terrible electric storage heaters. As I am typically out of the house from 7am to 7pm during weekdays, it doesn't really seem like a practical heating option.

Some people have advised me to look at air to air heat pumps. Is this a practical option in an existing apartment? I'm not exactly sure of how it connects to the heating system, or the units I would need. Would it be a planning issue to provide a heat pump unit on the balcony? Would I even be permitted to route pipes through the apartment wall?

mairbu

VonLuck wrote: »

I'm currently looking at buying an apartment which has those terrible electric storage heaters. As I am typically out of the house from 7am to 7pm during weekdays, it doesn't really seem like a practical heating option.

Some people have advised me to look at air to air heat pumps. Is this a practical option in an existing apartment? I'm not exactly sure of how it connects to the heating system, or the units I would need. Would it be a planning issue to provide a heat pump unit on the balcony? Would I even be permitted to route pipes through the apartment wall?

I looked into this earlier this year for an apartment (80's build, currently electric storage) and across all air to air pump providers, I couldn't find any in Ireland who fitted apartments, or who knew of an apartment successfully fitted to date.

ercork

VonLuck wrote: »

I'm currently looking at buying an apartment which has those terrible electric storage heaters. As I am typically out of the house from 7am to 7pm during weekdays, it doesn't really seem like a practical heating option.

Some people have advised me to look at air to air heat pumps. Is this a practical option in an existing apartment? I'm not exactly sure of how it connects to the heating system, or the units I would need. Would it be a planning issue to provide a heat pump unit on the balcony? Would I even be permitted to route pipes through the apartment wall?

Air to air heat pumps are a great retrofit for small houses or apartments which are limited to electric heating. Physically, the installation is very straightforward and only takes a few hours. The issue for apartments is whether or not the management company will allow the outdoor unit to be installed on the balcony or on the wall. You will just have to ask them in advance I suppose.

al2009

Once you've a location for outdoor unit and access for services it's quite staight forward. I think the Elysian in cork is air to air, also 2 apartment blocks in killarney are air to air. Plenty of air con companies should be able to quote you.

Calahonda52

ercork wrote: »

Air to air heat pumps are a great retrofit for small houses or apartments which are limited to electric heating. Physically, the installation is very straightforward and only takes a few hours. The issue for apartments is whether or not the management company will allow the outdoor unit to be installed on the balcony or on the wall. You will just have to ask them in advance I suppose.

So how does this work, assuming the unit can be put outside?
How is the heat delivered to all the rooms in the house/apt?
Is there ducting involved?
how does it integrate with the ventilation strategy for the apt/house?

ercork

Calahonda52 wrote: »

So how does this work, assuming the unit can be put outside?
How is the heat delivered to all the rooms in the house/apt?
Is there ducting involved?
how does it integrate with the ventilation strategy for the apt/house?

In my own case I installed one in my small two bed house (70m2). The downstairs is mostly open plan so the single indoor unit keeps the place warm. By leaving the stairs door open enough warm air rises to keep the bedrooms at an adequate temperature. I did hold on to the two panel heaters in the bedrooms to give some extra heat but didn't need them that often last winter.

Small apartments should work out okay too. Larger properties would need multiple indoor units which would require ducting.

antoinolachtnai

ercork wrote: »

In my own case I installed one in my small two bed house (70m2). The downstairs is mostly open plan so the single indoor unit keeps the place warm. By leaving the stairs door open enough warm air rises to keep the bedrooms at an adequate temperature. I did hold on to the two panel heaters in the bedrooms to give some extra heat but didn't need them that often last winter.

Small apartments should work out okay too. Larger properties would need multiple indoor units which would require ducting.

You can get units with two indoor ‘heads’ connected to a single outdoor unit. They can be operated independently.

0lddog

VonLuck wrote: »

I'm currently looking at buying an apartment which has those terrible electric storage heaters. As I am typically out of the house from 7am to 7pm during weekdays, it doesn't really seem like a practical heating option.

Some people have advised me to look at air to air heat pumps. Is this a practical option in an existing apartment? I'm not exactly sure of how it connects to the heating system, or the units I would need. Would it be a planning issue to provide a heat pump unit on the balcony? Would I even be permitted to route pipes through the apartment wall?

Over on the accom forum there is a thread on a similar subject

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057991516

Essentially its the same arrangement as you find in most european apartments with aircon. ( one or more outside and indoor units ). These units can generally be used for heating or cooling.

Even the Kiwis are at it. Harvey Norman sell them over there

https://www.harveynorman.co.nz/home-appliances/heating-and-cooling/heat-pumps-and-air-conditioners/mitsubishi-electric-hypercore-fh35-heat-pump-air-conditioner.html


( € 1 = NZD 1.5 at the present. Note units require specialist installation and are not suitable for DIY )

VonLuck

0lddog wrote: »

Over on the accom forum there is a thread on a similar subject

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057991516

Essentially its the same arrangement as you find in most european apartments with aircon. ( one or more outside and indoor units ). These units can generally be used for heating or cooling.

Even the Kiwis are at it. Harvey Norman sell them over there

https://www.harveynorman.co.nz/home-appliances/heating-and-cooling/heat-pumps-and-air-conditioners/mitsubishi-electric-hypercore-fh35-heat-pump-air-conditioner.html


( € 1 = NZD 1.5 at the present. Note units require specialist installation and are not suitable for DIY )

Good to know! Would there be much benefit in an apartment which already has GFCH?

0lddog

VonLuck wrote: »

Good to know! Would there be much benefit in an apartment which already has GFCH?

Is this a different apartment ? ( perhaps I missunderstood your original post )

VonLuck

0lddog wrote: »

Is this a different apartment ? ( perhaps I missunderstood your original post )

I've been looking at multiple apartments and a very small number of them have GFCH. Was just curious as to it's ever worth considering in that scenario where gas heating is cheaper than electric.

0lddog

VonLuck wrote: »

I've been looking at multiple apartments and a very small number of them have GFCH. Was just curious as to it's ever worth considering in that scenario where gas heating is cheaper than electric.

Expect a fair amount of grief when changing the heating method of an apartment. Why do it if you dont really need to ?

VonLuck

0lddog wrote: »

Expect a fair amount of grief when changing the heating method of an apartment. Why do it if you dont really need to ?

Well I suppose that's my question. Would you?

It's less about changing the method, but supplementing it. Can an air to air heat pump actually deliver all your heating needs?

Shefwedfan

VonLuck wrote: »

Well I suppose that's my question. Would you?

It's less about changing the method, but supplementing it. Can an air to air heat pump actually deliver all your heating needs?

Have you worked out what type of storage heater is in place? What is it usage? How much per year will it cost?

The old storage heater where awful but the newer ones can work ok....get the details before spending a fortune which might make apartment colder

0lddog

VonLuck wrote: »

Well I suppose that's my question. Would you?
It's less about changing the method, but supplementing it. Can an air to air heat pump actually deliver all your heating needs?

If it has GFCH and its working well then I wouldnt see any need - at least not in the near term, maybe look at it again if, say, the boiler needed to be replaced.

If speced to match the heat requirement of the apartment then of course A2A can do the space heating. ( The house I'm in at present is heated by A2A heat pumps )





@Shefw see post 1375 ( the goal posts are a little elastic )

ecowise

We have a Genie 9kW ground source heat pump installed in 2001. It has served us well over the 18 years but during the last heating season the compressor cut out on 5 occasions (usually soon after coming on) and I am wondering if it is time to look for a replacement heat pump or can it be serviced to be more reliable. It worked fine each time after being reset but it is a nuisance as it is timed to come on at night so it only gets discovered the following day. The compressor make is Copeland. Has anyone experience of these units or knowledge about compressor reliability/longevity?

Calahonda52

Copeland has a good name in the compressor world, you see them a lot on building sites.
18 years is probably at end of life or close there to, depending on the run hours and more crucially the head pressure, worth getting a service call