Heat Pumps - post here.

hugo29

sheff the ref wrote: »

I suggest that the first thing you do is try and measure the borehole depth

other than tossing the plumber who installed system in begining into it, has anyone a simple method to measure

badgerhowlin

who ever bored the whole should have it on record.

hugo29

badgerhowlin wrote: »

who ever bored the whole should have it on record.

i doubt it very much, the plumber owned the well drilling rig, could always try i suppose

badgerhowlin

Only other thing is get a LONG LONG LONG rope with a heavy weight and drop it down the hole.

sheff the ref

Get a long enough clothes line rope and tie a heavy weight to the end of it and basically let it down until it reaches the bottom. I did it once with a Water Well. I think I used a piece of Angle Iron I found that had a hole in it, and tied the rope to that.

hugo29 wrote: »

other than tossing the plumber who installed system in begining into it, has anyone a simple method to measure

sheff the ref

I am a teacher myself so I have a fair idea of the usage of oil within a school. Basically the school is mainly heated between the hours of 8am and 2pm and the heat goes to radiators. I have taught in something like 30 schools between day to day subbing and everything and not one school that I have taught in has had underfloor heating. Basically for an Oil Boiler, Oil is the consumable. For a Heatpump, electricity is the consumable and there is a significant difference between Night Rate electricity and Day Rate electricity and consequently it costs less to heat by night. When I worked in the area of Geothermal, the theoretical plan was that the bulk of the heating of the underfloor concrete slab would take place by night on the lower rate of electricity.

Any heating done by day would be timed and would essentially be top up heating of the underfloor slab. Obviously on freezing cold days, there would be exceptions and more heating would be required on the day meter. In a school because of the radiators, all the work would need be done on the day rate electricity so basically I could not see it being viable unless you can do maths to prove otherwise. You have also to factor in the amount of heat that escapes from schools through external doors being open at break time etc. when children enter and leave the building.

Nowadays there is a Weather Dependent Controller that calls in the heatpump based on an outside temperature drop. Something I would like to know is, how does this impact on the use of the night meter because if on any given day (unlikely as it is) the night temperature happens to be warmer than the day temperature, then the bulk of the work will be done by day on day rate electricity.

cwboy wrote: »

Thanks for the replies.

I am based in Carlow. The school is reasonably well insulated but doors would be open at breaktime leading to heat losses. With grant aided funding, would we be foolish to ignore a way to rid ourselves of oil? The oil bill is around seven thousand a year. The installer reckons we can elimate 80% of this with the heat pumps.

Are the photo voltaic panels good enough yet to really help with the electricity burden?

sheff the ref

Just wondering how your costs have worked out between. I am seriously considering an Alpha Innotec model with borehole.

My demand would probably be above 6kw and no more than 8kw. Are there any pricelists available online from the various companies???

The Hurricane wrote: »

Hi Sunnymeade

Hope I can help Ive had Geothermal installed for 3 years in august this year house is 3000 sq ft built house in 2006 well insulated etc. I have an Alpha Innotech 12 kw Heat pump with boreholes as opposed to ground loops. My esb bill for last year April - April was €1470 total including light all esb house usage I used 5316 night units and 7448 day units. Last February I installed a motorosied valve at the pipe entrance to all the manifolds as there was a slight leak somewhere so the heat pump was coming on during the day when none of the room stats were calling for heat. Since I have done this and fitted a timer operating the heat pump only on nightsaver electricity 11pm -7pm. It has been great im delighted since we had the coldest winter in ages it actually worked really well. Some rooms especially with a lot of glazing just never reach the set roomstat temperature. The garage door is a wooden one wish I had put in a proper PVC sealed door ( doing it this summer) and this affects the utility which is next door to it.

Basically in the first year we moved in we got high ESB bills and I complained to the plumber he kept fobbing me off saying it was normal and the high esb bills would calm down once house dried out etc and all his customers got high winter bills I got sick of him ( hes since gone bust) and contacted Powertech to check the system out for peace of mind. His work and plumbing was perfect but he had the heatpump starting up 3 times an hour with the compressor working doing absolutely nothing which was using up units during the day and of no benefit energy or heatwise.

My advice is get the system checked out by the manufacturer and fit a timer so it only comes on during the nightsaver hours and maybe a motorosied valve depending on your system.

Your ESB usage is incredibly high either your heatpump is sized wrong for the energy demand of your house given its size or the heatpump settings are not set to come on at night when you can farm in cheap electricity.

Hope this helps you as I had those high bills for a few months and how I discovered it was monitoring the esb over a 12 and 24 hour period.

hugo29

sheff the ref wrote: »

Just wondering how your costs have worked out between. I am seriously considering an Alpha Innotec model with borehole.

My demand would probably be above 6kw and no more than 8kw. Are there any pricelists available online from the various companies???

if anyone is speaking to someone about alpha innotec pumps ask them what setting should be used for heating curve, got various answers from various people

Condenser

hugo29 wrote: »

if anyone is speaking to someone about alpha innotec pumps ask them what setting should be used for heating curve, got various answers from various people

It will depend on the insulation level of your house and the design of your underfloor so if the installer hasn't set it you can play around so it matches the room temp you require at the various outside temps. You just need a thermometer to measure your inside temp. If you have stats then the heat curve would need to be set up completely differently than if you were running off weather compensation alone.

hugo29

Condenser wrote: »

It will depend on the insulation level of your house and the design of your underfloor so if the installer hasn't set it you can play around so it matches the room temp you require at the various outside temps. You just need a thermometer to measure your inside temp. If you have stats then the heat curve would need to be set up completely differently than if you were running off weather compensation alone.

Have stats so what do I do

Condenser

hugo29 wrote: »

Have stats so what do I do

Do you have a buffer tank? You need to have a buffer if you have stats so you maintain constant flow across the condenser no matter how many thermostats are open or your COP will be affected.
If you do have a buffer give me some info on the insulation level of the house and the highest set stat. If you don't have a buffer give me some info on the insulation level of the house and the temp of the flow and return when all stats are open. Then remove all actuators. Don't run the HP with stats and no buffer you will have a serious effect on its efficiency and life span.

Juantorena

Condenser wrote: »

It will depend on the insulation level of your house and the design of your underfloor so if the installer hasn't set it you can play around so it matches the room temp you require at the various outside temps. You just need a thermometer to measure your inside temp. If you have stats then the heat curve would need to be set up completely differently than if you were running off weather compensation alone.

Hmmm...could you expand on this a little please? I have no stats, am on weather comp. What/how many readings would I need to take and where? How would they then feed into the heating curve setting?

Thanks.

Condenser

Juantorena wrote: »

Hmmm...could you expand on this a little please? I have no stats, am on weather comp. What/how many readings would I need to take and where? How would they then feed into the heating curve setting?

Thanks.

Your house should really not have anymore than 1C difference wherever you go if your installation is good. Just wander around the house with thermometer to confirm the average temp. Then it depends on the unit you have, some have predesignated heat curves and some have fully adjustable curves. The later is better. Somewhere along the curve your outside temp will match the current return temp. If the house temp required matches this current temp then you're fairly on point, if its higher the heat curve is too high and if its lower the heat curve is too low. Its hard to give figures because if I install a better ufh system than you my heat curve will be lower. Similar story with insulation.

Juantorena

Condenser wrote: »

Your house should really not have anymore than 1C difference wherever you go if your installation is good. Just wander around the house with thermometer to confirm the average temp. Then it depends on the unit you have, some have predesignated heat curves and some have fully adjustable curves. The later is better. Somewhere along the curve your outside temp will match the current return temp. If the house temp required matches this current temp then you're fairly on point, if its higher the heat curve is too high and if its lower the heat curve is too low. Its hard to give figures because if I install a better ufh system than you my heat curve will be lower. Similar story with insulation.

Ok thanks Condenser.

Should I have a plot from which I can read these points? The manager allows me change the curve in specific point form (from recollection say 0.6, 0.7, 0.8, etc) but I'm not getting an X and Y axis type read out.

Thanks for your help.

Condenser

Juantorena wrote: »

Ok thanks Condenser.

Should I have a plot from which I can read these points? The manager allows me change the curve in specific point form (from recollection say 0.6, 0.7, 0.8, etc) but I'm not getting an X and Y axis type read out.

Thanks for your help.

Its hard to say as most manufacturers have their own version but it sounds like yours should have a graph in the manual that matches those points. What type of machine is it.

Juantorena

Condenser wrote: »

Its hard to say as most manufacturers have their own version but it sounds like yours should have a graph in the manual that matches those points. What type of machine is it.

It's a Remko.

Can't get my hands on our manual but found this on line - go to page 7 http://www.remko.de/download/archiv/Bedienungsanleitungen/Neue_Energien/Inverter-Waermepumpen/GB/Alt/CMF-CMT80-150-Kurzanleitung_GB-V02.pdf

I'm seeing flow temperature plotted against outside temp. Not sure what determines which heat curve and how internal temperature readings might feed into it...

Condenser

Juantorena wrote: »

It's a Remko.

Can't get my hands on our manual but found this on line - go to page 7 http://www.remko.de/download/archiv/Bedienungsanleitungen/Neue_Energien/Inverter-Waermepumpen/GB/Alt/CMF-CMT80-150-Kurzanleitung_GB-V02.pdf

I'm seeing flow temperature plotted against outside temp. Not sure what determines which heat curve and how internal temperature readings might feed into it...

Flow temp is a bad way to run your heat curve as it is not indicative of floor temp. A undersized pump or a blocked filter can affect your flow temp. Return temp gives you an actual indication of floor temp so weather comp should always react to return temp. Going from the graph you would need to be 0.3,0.4,0.5. Impossible to tell exactly where without matching the room temp to the set temp. But the fact its flow temp will mean it might not be very accurate.

Juantorena

Condenser wrote: »

Flow temp is a bad way to run your heat curve as it is not indicative of floor temp. A undersized pump or a blocked filter can affect your flow temp. Return temp gives you an actual indication of floor temp so weather comp should always react to return temp. Going from the graph you would need to be 0.3,0.4,0.5. Impossible to tell exactly where without matching the room temp to the set temp. But the fact its flow temp will mean it might not be very accurate.

So should I be taking room temperature readings and comparing them to the 'desired temp' setting in the manager - if there is a difference I alter the curve setting until the two temps converge? And I presume external temp has a bearing on this too?

Sorry for the questions but never got my head around this system.

Condenser

Juantorena wrote: »

So should I be taking room temperature readings and comparing them to the 'desired temp' setting in the manager - if there is a difference I alter the curve setting until the two temps converge? And I presume external temp has a bearing on this too?

Sorry for the questions but never got my head around this system.

Exactly. With the preset curves you have, the manufacturer has made an assumption as to what flow temp will be required at various outside temps in order to achieve the room temp you require. So you just need to match the current temp to the desired temp. I don't like the fact its based on flow temp however and don't think it will be very accurate.

Juantorena

Condenser wrote: »

Exactly. With the preset curves you have, the manufacturer has made an assumption as to what flow temp will be required at various outside temps in order to achieve the room temp you require. So you just need to match the current temp to the desired temp. I don't like the fact its based on flow temp however and don't think it will be very accurate.

Appreciate your responses Condenser, will stop wrecking your head now whilst I do some tests.

Thanks.

brophis

Got my Ecodan 8.5kW air to water heat pump installed last week. Working out round €3 a day so far to run in this weather. House still drying and unoccupied and haven't fine tuned the system yet so looking good. Solar air heating not running yet. House is 2800 sq ft timberframe with 75mm concrete screed downstairs and 45mm liquid screed upstairs. Ufh is toasty. Would recommend big time. The screed holds the heat beautifully and gradually releases heat.

sheff the ref

How much was that heatpump?

brophis

sheff the ref wrote: »

How much was that heatpump?

About €3600 ex VAT. The main bulk of the heating system cost is in everything else which is common to most systems. Eg. Taking into account extra ancillary equipment for the heat pump it was bout €3200 ex VAT more than an oil option.

sheff the ref

That €3200 would not buy much oil in fairness. We havent really had that much of a cold period of late to test that air to water system. Even though we have had frost, I doubt if the temperatures have been much below zero if at all in a lot of places. Let us know if the temperatures dip if there is much impact on the bill. Have you anything else providing heat to the house, or any significant solar and passive gain which might have contributed to less use of the heatpump?

brophis wrote: »

About €3600 ex VAT. The main bulk of the heating system cost is in everything else which is common to most systems. Eg. Taking into account extra ancillary equipment for the heat pump it was bout €3200 ex VAT more than an oil option.

brophis

sheff the ref wrote: »

That €3200 would not buy much oil in fairness. We havent really had that much of a cold period of late to test that air to water system. Even though we have had frost, I doubt if the temperatures have been much below zero if at all in a lot of places. Let us know if the temperatures dip if there is much impact on the bill. Have you anything else providing heat to the house, or any significant solar and passive gain which might have contributed to less use of the heatpump?

Worst I've monitored so far is -4 and the heat pump didn't seem too bothered which was kinda cool to see. Playing around with running the heat pump on a schedule or always on demand at present. Have mixed results so the jury's still out on that one.
Some decent solar gain to living spaces which did reduce usage over the two or three days of sun. No other heat source till solar is commissioned and connected to the hrv.

sunnymeade01

Stay well clear on Thermia heatpumps as they have issued a Safety Warning

Safety warning on Thermia Heat pumps - see the national consumer agency

I told them there was a problem 3 years ago and they fobbed me off

2 houses have went on fire because of the heatpump

muffler

@ sunnymeade01 - please post a link to where this info is available officially

sunnymeade01

http://www.nca.ie/index.jsp?p=103&n=127&a=966

muffler

sunnymeade01 wrote: »

http://www.nca.ie/index.jsp?p=103&n=127&a=966

Good stuff. Thanks

sheff the ref

I had intended having the heatpump in a plant room off the Utility Room. Fire is something I did not consider. I think the heatpump will need to be in the Garage after hearing that.

sunnymeade01 wrote: »

Stay well clear on Thermia heatpumps as they have issued a Safety Warning

Safety warning on Thermia Heat pumps - see the national consumer agency

I told them there was a problem 3 years ago and they fobbed me off

2 houses have went on fire because of the heatpump