Heat Pumps - post here.

steloide

Hi all, I'm dealing with heatlink in tullamore. Iv had my thermia atria in for about 4 years now and have had problems from day 1. The ground floor piping was laid very bad to start with (corners were cut, cold spots were left. Forever.) Our first christmas in the house (the winter before the hard ones) our esb bill was over €1200 for 2 months. We took a loan out for that one. The pump was running 24/7. There has been 4 soft-start replaced. A thermostat at the fan unit had been placed in the wrong spot so the pump thought it was cold all the time so it pumped heat around my house 24/7 but there was no heat cos the soft-start had blown but it keep pumping and pumping.............
So the soft-start was replaced and a couple of months later it blew again. (I dont notice for about 4-5 days till the heat starts dropping). That was also replaced and some computer readings were taken and i was told they were "off the chart" but the machine was reset and all should be ok. A while later that soft start blows "DEJA VU". That was replaced with a much bigger one, that blew the same week, a wire is now bridging something at the front of it and it has been fine since. The circulating pump seized in the mean time and the most recent is the compressor chugging like a tractor. To make matters worse i cant afford a lawyer, I also pretty sure my warranty is up soon. And im sure this post is in the wrong place. SORRY IF IT IS. Is there anyone out there that can help my please I dont know what to do this is obviously not normal.

Cavanjack

I've a question on heat pumps that I've never heard anyone mention. Do they become less efficent over time due to wearing parts the same as an engine does? Will they still run as good after 10 years as they do on day 1.

al2009

Steloide

document all calls, work done, repairs and failures, log phone calls and times, who you spoke with and action taken.

contact Thermia directly, give them copies of the above documents, and ask for suggestions, the issues with the underfloor they will not be able to help with, that is solely the installer.

I would also recommend contacting the small claims court, see if you can get some remedy, it is very low cost.

Condenser

Cavanjack wrote: »

I've a question on heat pumps that I've never heard anyone mention. Do they become less efficent over time due to wearing parts the same as an engine does? Will they still run as good after 10 years as they do on day 1.

If they are run at low temperature then they should keep a stable efficiency but if they are consistently ran to high temp for long periods of time i.e in heating mode, then the compressor will become compromised and start to draw more power. As with everything with heat pumps, if the initial design is right they'll serve you well.

brophis

Condenser wrote: »

If they are run at low temperature then they should keep a stable efficiency but if they are consistently ran to high temp for long periods of time i.e in heating mode, then the compressor will become compromised and start to draw more power. As with everything with heat pumps, if the initial design is right they'll serve you well.

On that note, I've been playing with lowering the flow temperature of my ASHP and found the power usage reduces nicely but the heat pump naturally has to run longer. I'll eventually reach a point where the heat pump would have to run non stop to keep the house warm I imagine. Would it be preferable to run 24/7 at as low a flow temp as possible or run warmer for say 12 hours?

Condenser

brophis wrote: »

On that note, I've been playing with lowering the flow temperature of my ASHP and found the power usage reduces nicely but the heat pump naturally has to run longer. I'll eventually reach a point where the heat pump would have to run non stop to keep the house warm I imagine. Would it be preferable to run 24/7 at as low a flow temp as possible or run warmer for say 12 hours?

Depends on how much power you're saving and how long extra it runs. Whats your energy consumption per day as opposed to what it was (don't use an owl meter or similar they're crap).
To avail of most of the savings from running at lower temp your system would need to be designed (same energy output from lower temp water) towards that on day one but very few are.

brophis

Condenser wrote: »

Depends on how much power you're saving and how long extra it runs. Whats your energy consumption per day as opposed to what it was (don't use an owl meter or similar they're crap).
To avail of most of the savings from running at lower temp your system would need to be designed (same energy output from lower temp water) towards that on day one but very few are.

Haven't got figures for full day yet as still testing various settings. Averages are coming in bout 25% less, maybe less. I was wondering more so from a maintenance point of view if running longer would be worse than running at a higher temp.

Condenser

brophis wrote: »

Haven't got figures for full day yet as still testing various settings. Averages are coming in bout 25% less, maybe less. I was wondering more so from a maintenance point of view if running longer would be worse than running at a higher temp.

No, like all motors, compressors prefer clocking up hours rather than operating in a start stop cycle and they much prefer low temp as higher temps means higher pressures and a harder lifetime for the motor.

Even if the result of your test is close (you should save money despite the extra hours) you should still run at low temp for the sake of longevity of the equipment.

steloide

al2009 wrote: »

Steloide

document all calls, work done, repairs and failures, log phone calls and times, who you spoke with and action taken.

contact Thermia directly, give them copies of the above documents, and ask for suggestions, the issues with the underfloor they will not be able to help with, that is solely the installer.

I would also recommend contacting the small claims court, see if you can get some remedy, it is very low cost.

Thanks for all that but unfortunately i have only start to log calls and callouts about the more recent problems, nothing from the past (but i can dig phone records) as far as who called and what they did that would be just from memory. I'll get in contact with the small claims ,see what they have to say. Thanks for all your input.

sheff the ref

A bad install possibly with an undersized collector and an undersized heatpump for the size of the house.

I know of one heatpump in a 3200 square foot house that in the real cold year, 2010, January to December had total ESB bills of €1200 euro.

Tommyboy08

sheff the ref wrote: »

A bad install possibly with an undersized collector and an undersized heatpump for the size of the house.

I know of one heatpump in a 3200 square foot house that in the real cold year, 2010, January to December had total ESB bills of €1200 euro.

I worked on an thermia from heat link last week where their last bill was €1600
They are a very badly designed piece of kit, anyone considering buying one please don't, you'll probably get as good a performance from a daikin altherma! And their rubbish!!!

Cavanjack

Tommyboy08 wrote: »

I worked on an thermia from heat link last week where their last bill was €1600
They are a very badly designed piece of kit, anyone considering buying one please don't, you'll probably get as good a performance from a daikin altherma! And their rubbish!!!

Their last BILL? Was it in a hotel?

Tommyboy08

Cavanjack wrote: »

Their last BILL? Was it in a hotel?

That was just a thermia, I've seen better from dunstars and countless crappy air to water units,

Ros1234

Tommyboy08 wrote: »

I worked on an thermia from heat link last week where their last bill was €1600
They are a very badly designed piece of kit, anyone considering buying one please don't, you'll probably get as good a performance from a daikin altherma! And their rubbish!!!

We're going the air to water HP route, got a couple quotes already but looking at your post has me worried, the two brands you mentioned are the two on my quotes! In your opinion what are the best brands?

Tommyboy08

Ros1234 wrote: »

We're going the air to water HP route, got a couple quotes already but looking at your post has me worried, the two brands you mentioned are the two on my quotes! In your opinion what are the best brands?

I work with different heat pumps everyday and the atria is among the worst of them for a number of reasons, the altherma is not much better, there is really no air to water heat pump I'd ever recommend as I believe they should not be used unless you have no other choice, use ground source everytime, boreholes if the ground doesn't suit, a proper air to water unit will cost as much or more than the ground unit,
They do have their place, such as small apartments or semi detached, but not for medium to large builds, performance is just too low and defrosting is a problem, the daikin will be defrosting every 20 mins as the fin spacing a are way too close together and they use immersion heaters if the water is below 15 degrees, the atria uses its own hot water tank for defrosting, absolutely crazy stuff,
Try the other routes first and if ground source is still impossible to do then come back to me and I'll tell you what's better than those two,
If you don't believe me ask your suppliers to give you the cop ratings for their units at
air 2 and air -5 and that will scare the bejesus out of you

The First Guru

Hi Tommy

Not sure where you are getting your Daikin information from but Ive had a Daikin for four years (as have two of my neighbours) and I am very happy with it, does not defrost anywhere near that often and my yearly bill is less than 1000 for heating and hot water for 2500sq ft on radiators. I got fed all that rubbish about fin spacings when I was buying it and looked at a few jobs all working ok, Many other manufacturers also have fin spacings close as Daikin (I looked at them to check. Also in the cold winter in 2009/10 I had the unit working at -16 Degrees with no electrical element on. Im happy with the heat pump, dont know anything about the Thermia but did price one and it was way more expensive at the time and I couldnt justify it.
I rang Daikin last year for a service and they put their service guys in touch and unit was all ok from their feedback. If you have problems with the units call DAikin in Dublin and they might help?

Tommyboy08 wrote: »

I work with different heat pumps everyday and the atria is among the worst of them for a number of reasons, the altherma is not much better, there is really no air to water heat pump I'd ever recommend as I believe they should not be used unless you have no other choice, use ground source everytime, boreholes if the ground doesn't suit, a proper air to water unit will cost as much or more than the ground unit,
They do have their place, such as small apartments or semi detached, but not for medium to large builds, performance is just too low and defrosting is a problem, the daikin will be defrosting every 20 mins as the fin spacing a are way too close together and they use immersion heaters if the water is below 15 degrees, the atria uses its own hot water tank for defrosting, absolutely crazy stuff,
Try the other routes first and if ground source is still impossible to do then come back to me and I'll tell you what's better than those two,
If you don't believe me ask your suppliers to give you the cop ratings for their units at
air 2 and air -5 and that will scare the bejesus out of you

Tommyboy08

The First Guru wrote: »

Hi Tommy

Not sure where you are getting your Daikin information from but Ive had a Daikin for four years (as have two of my neighbours) and I am very happy with it, does not defrost anywhere near that often and my yearly bill is less than 1000 for heating and hot water for 2500sq ft on radiators. I got fed all that rubbish about fin spacings when I was buying it and looked at a few jobs all working ok, Many other manufacturers also have fin spacings close as Daikin (I looked at them to check. Also in the cold winter in 2009/10 I had the unit working at -16 Degrees with no electrical element on. Im happy with the heat pump, dont know anything about the Thermia but did price one and it was way more expensive at the time and I couldnt justify it.
I rang Daikin last year for a service and they put their service guys in touch and unit was all ok from their feedback. If you have problems with the units call DAikin in Dublin and they might help?

Glad to hear your great results,
Just two quick questions,
How many hours a day do you run the system and at what temperature is it set to for the rads?
Thanks

The First Guru

Depending on the temp outside I am running it from a min of 8 hours and up to 24 hours, rads are between 40 and 60 deg C. Hot water stored at 55 and no immersion.

Tommyboy08

The First Guru wrote: »

Depending on the temp outside I am running it from a min of 8 hours and up to 24 hours, rads are between 40 and 60 deg C. Hot water stored at 55 and no immersion.

Im pretty sure you'd heat that with €1000 worth of oil with a good condenser boiler half the install price which would buy afew tanks of oil for you and then factor in your compressor changes, How long do you expect your compressor to last running those temps for between 8 and 24 hours a day?
Also if your running hours are that much theirs no way your bill is only €1000

JD6910

hi folks,

what is the best ground source heat pump to install???

any thoughts on the Nibe ground source unit????

thinking of going with the combi option whereby the 180L of hot water is within the unit.

Tommyboy08

JD6910 wrote: »

hi folks,

what is the best ground source heat pump to install???

any thoughts on the Nibe ground source unit????

thinking of going with the combi option whereby the 180L of hot water is within the unit.

Nibe is very average as are most of the most 'popular' units sold in Ireland like thermia and Danfoss, all with cop's of 4.2, and with large banks of immersions like all the scandanivian syste
ms, if you want a good unit with much higher efficiencies look at some German or Austrian heat pumps like ochsner or heliotherm's DX system with its cop of 5.8, and if you do a little digging on this site you will see good reports on both installers as opposed to a lot of horrors from most other systems, believe me I've seen a lot of them first hand

badgerhowlin

Hi,

This is the HP I have my self. I find it prity good. I cant comment on how much better or worse it is to other cause I dont know.

I have been running mine for the past year and in the year it has cost €380 to run, for both Heating and hotwater.

Controls are prity easy to use.

JD6910 wrote: »

hi folks,

what is the best ground source heat pump to install???

any thoughts on the Nibe ground source unit????

thinking of going with the combi option whereby the 180L of hot water is within the unit.

Tommyboy08

badgerhowlin wrote: »

Hi,

This is the HP I have my self. I find it prity good. I cant comment on how much better or worse it is to other cause I dont know.

I have been running mine for the past year and in the year it has cost €380 to run, for both Heating and hotwater.

Controls are prity easy to use.

Can you clarify what make of unit you have?
House size and insulation level?
Running hours and set temp?
How you worked out your running costs?

engineermike

JD6910 wrote: »

hi folks,

what is the best ground source heat pump to install???

any thoughts on the Nibe ground source unit????

thinking of going with the combi option whereby the 180L of hot water is within the unit.

Hi,
Nibe are pretty good, with good service in Ireland. Ochsner, heliotherm, Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Heatlogic & kingspan / aeromax ( irish made) are all good makes.
The ones we come across the most with bad service problems - needing repair & Replacement parts most often are Soltera, thermia & <snip>. A lot of these faults are related to the unit / manufacture with poor installation also a factor in why they need constant attention.

Waterkotte are also a very good German machine, but note the IRL & UK distributor has 'gone to the wall' early this year. Its giving time delays on sourcing spare parts & service at the moment - but those type of delays should resolve in the coming months. Very good machine with high (5+) COP and built in back up immersions in case of faults in the Ground source energy loop & the pumps primary function.

Be wary of pumps that seem to be a great deal for a comparable KW output 'brand name' pump. If its cheap, your paying for what you get when it comes to heat pumps. Lots of cheap Chinese & far east product on the market that are questionable at best, no real track record in our environment & difficulty sourcing spare parts etc.
The other no.1 let down with heat pumps is bad installation & undersizing. The 'hard sell' companies out there employ Salesmen with there eye on closing your sale for your build heat system, and willing to cut corners with undersized pumps / or poorly spec'd installation - just to keep overall cost down / therefore closing the sale and the problems either come up with the pump struggling to heat the space or your ESB bills running away with your wallet every time the bill comes in the door.
Do your research & get mutiple quotes for the same manufacture / unit / KW pump. And compare what each company are saying to you. Also run the quote and spec by your engineer & or architect to see if your meeting your Part L requirement but also to get their advice on if its the right system to heat the space & meet your families hot water requirement.
mike F

Tommyboy08

engineermike wrote: »

Hi,
Nibe are pretty good, with good service in Ireland. Ochsner, heliotherm, Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Heatlogic & kingspan / aeromax ( irish made) are all good makes.
The ones we come across the most with bad service problems - needing repair & Replacement parts most often are Soltera, thermia & <snip>. A lot of these faults are related to the unit / manufacture with poor installation also a factor in why they need constant attention.

Waterkotte are also a very good German machine, but note the IRL & UK distributor has 'gone to the wall' early this year. Its giving time delays on sourcing spare parts & service at the moment - but those type of delays should resolve in the coming months. Very good machine with high (5+) COP and built in back up immersions in case of faults in the Ground source energy loop & the pumps primary function.

Be wary of pumps that seem to be a great deal for a comparable KW output 'brand name' pump. If its cheap, your paying for what you get when it comes to heat pumps. Lots of cheap Chinese & far east product on the market that are questionable at best, no real track record in our environment & difficulty sourcing spare parts etc.
The other no.1 let down with heat pumps is bad installation & undersizing. The 'hard sell' companies out there employ Salesmen with there eye on closing your sale for your build heat system, and willing to cut corners with undersized pumps / or poorly spec'd installation - just to keep overall cost down / therefore closing the sale and the problems either come up with the pump struggling to heat the space or your ESB bills running away with your wallet every time the bill comes in the door.
Do your research & get mutiple quotes for the same manufacture / unit / KW pump. And compare what each company are saying to you. Also run the quote and spec by your engineer & or architect to see if your meeting your Part L requirement but also to get their advice on if its the right system to heat the space & meet your families hot water requirement.
mike F

Most of what mike is saying is right but waterkotte is nowhere near cop,s of 5 more like 4.5 at best, heatlogic is a terrible unit with poor performance and kingspan 's unit is not Irish made its a carrier unit with a Kingspan sticker on it,

JD6910

tommyboy and mike F,

many thanks for the replies. so are ye too guys agreed that Nibe is a good ground source unit with good support available in ireland???

if it was your own house what ground source unit would you put in?

i would also love to hear ye're thoughts on the correct zoning for the house. it is a typical storey and a half with a main living space downstairs and bedrooms upstairs. should i have a stat is every room or perhaps simply a stat downstairs and a stat upstairs?

please remember my heat pump is running rads.

badgerhowlin

Hi Tommy,
You will find most of your ansers at this link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Amy6xlLdiDpQdENDa0ZTdkM3S3hfc3BHeURYQ1ZWZkE#gid=6

I have worked out my running cost by having a unit meter place on the power cable going into the HP. I take the reading each morning(for night rate usage) and in the night( for day rate usage)

Tommyboy08 wrote: »

Can you clarify what make of unit you have?
House size and insulation level?
Running hours and set temp?
How you worked out your running costs?

Tommyboy08

JD6910 wrote: »

tommyboy and mike F,

many thanks for the replies. so are ye too guys agreed that Nibe is a good ground source unit with good support available in ireland???

if it was your own house what ground source unit would you put in?

i would also love to hear ye're thoughts on the correct zoning for the house. it is a typical storey and a half with a main living space downstairs and bedrooms upstairs. should i have a stat is every room or perhaps simply a stat downstairs and a stat upstairs?

please remember my heat pump is running rads.

Personally I wouldn't recommend nibe,
Its a standard unit, standard cop 4.2
You have no idea who's going to be installing it as they sell to everyone
As for back up service, when theirs a refrigeration problem the answer seems to be just remove the entire cooling module and replace the lot at great expense to the customer, how can you claim to be a heat pump repair service when your not a refrigeration engineer, then again it's a bitch of a unit to work on anyway,
There are other units on the market that are much more efficient and dont cost much more either
I wouldn't use any zones as all modern heat pumps use weather compensation so zoning isn't an issue, also with the use of hrv zoning is much harder to achieve as your constantly moving air around the house
Who is advising you to use rads with a heat pump, unless their convector rads

JD6910

Tommyboy08 wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't recommend nibe,
Its a standard unit, standard cop 4.2
You have no idea who's going to be installing it as they sell to everyone
As for back up service, when theirs a refrigeration problem the answer seems to be just remove the entire cooling module and replace the lot at great expense to the customer, how can you claim to be a heat pump repair service when your not a refrigeration engineer, then again it's a bitch of a unit to work on anyway,
There are other units on the market that are much more efficient and dont cost much more either
I wouldn't use any zones as all modern heat pumps use weather compensation so zoning isn't an issue, also with the use of hrv zoning is much harder to achieve as your constantly moving air around the house
Who is advising you to use rads with a heat pump, unless their convector rads

thanks for that tommyboy. so what are the best heat pumps so and who is the best agent to buy one off????? - PM me if necessary.

i am picking up that ochnser and heliotherm are the rolls royce?? who is the best agent to deal with to purchase one of these?

Tommyboy08

JD6910 wrote: »

thanks for that tommyboy. so what are the best heat pumps so and who is the best agent to buy one off????? - PM me if necessary.

i am picking up that ochnser and heliotherm are the rolls royce?? who is the best agent to deal with to purchase one of these?

Ochsner DX unit has a cop of 5.1(unsure if their installers will even fit this model in Ireland you would have to check with them)
ochsner brine unit has a cop of 4.7,
Heliotherm brine unit has cop of 4.9
Heliotherm DX unit has a cop of 5.8
Nibe brine unit has a cop of 4.3