Ireland going for electric cars ?

craichoe

Irish govt powers up electric vehicle drive

By Alun Taylor
4th December 2008 07:02 GMT

'Leccy Tech The Irish Government has been bitten by the 'leccy car bug. Last week, it announced that it wants ten per cent of the cars running on Ireland's roads to be powered by electricity. That means 250,000 of them humming around the Emerald Isle by 2020.

A national task force will be set up to put flesh on the bones of this ambitious project, which will include the development of a national charging infrastructure that will include electric "filling stations" with battery-swap facilities.

Most motorists are expected to recharge their EVs overnight from domestic sockets. Ireland currently produces around ten per cent of its electricity from wind energy and plans to increase the proportion of power from renewable sources dramatically in the next decade.

Other key announcements include the setting up of a €1m ($1.26m/£855,000) R&D fund, tax incentives for companies buying electric vehicles and assistance for individual buyers. Under the company tax incentive scheme, businesses buying EVs will be able to write off the entire cost against their tax bill.

No details were announced about how private purchasers would benefit, though they will be issued with a "buyer's guide" and a "cost of ownership calculator" in an attempt to persuade them to switch to a greener automotive alternative

Energy Minister Eamon Ryan – of the Green Party - said costs of electric vehicles would fall as they became more popular. "When you mass-produce electric vehicles, you'll see the cost dropping," he said. "When you provide the infrastructure to make it viable, that'll bring the cost down. We want to see tens of thousands of vehicles being sold, not a couple of hundred. In those circumstances they will be cheaper.”

However, Simon Coveney, Fine Gael's spokesman on energy, described the government's plans as “an unambitious and inadequate response to the emissions problem in the transport sector”.

Leccy cars may not be a dirty business, but politics still is.

Source: The Reg
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/12/04/ireland_govt_goes_leccy/

Good .. Bad ? Comments

I think its great tbh, so many people sitting in traffic in the morning.
Another idea would be to have charging stations at work with a Charge card that bills to an account.

markpb

Energy Minister Eamon Ryan – of the Green Party - said costs of electric vehicles would fall as they became more popular. "When you mass-produce electric vehicles, you'll see the cost dropping," he said. "When you provide the infrastructure to make it viable, that'll bring the cost down. We want to see tens of thousands of vehicles being sold, not a couple of hundred. In those circumstances they will be cheaper.”

I'm not sure a few thousand Irish people buying electric cars will cause the mass-production cost decreases he's thinking of. If 10% of Americans, Chinese or Indians did it, then we'd be talking

I think it's odd that there are tax benefits for businesses but not individuals, isn't that a little odd?

Tipsy Mac

Once theres 5 star ncap rated electric cars available and a network of charging stations around the country i will get one, ie NEVER.

peasant

I had to laugh at the concept of "battery exchange stations" when this was first floated.

As if modern electric vehicles had batteries that you could just take out and swap for new ones within 5 minutes at a service station.

If that is the level of thinking and research that went into this project ...well ...*snigger*

Owen

Brilliant. The emissions from the tailpipe shall now be replaced by more emissions from the power stations as they charge all these cars.

The days of being a petrolhead are numbered. I swear there are days I'd love to get the Greens and shove their environmental and political correctness up their holes.

Seth Brundle

I can't wait to see the first leccy trackday in Mondello!

Max_Damage

ned78 wrote: »

Brilliant. The emissions from the tailpipe shall now be replaced by more emissions from the power stations as they charge all these cars.

Not to mention the manufacture and disposal of lead-acid batteries.

sneakyST

Watch the pedestrian death rate increase the more of these things on the road. Was in a multi story the other day, Lexus hybrid came out of a space behind me as I was walking across to my car, didnt hear it until he gave a polite beep......

Seth Brundle

The manufacture of these cars and batteries will be outside Ireland so therefore the greens don't give a toss about carbon emissions (as they are not ours!).
Like most of our rubbish, the batteries will possibly be exported. Maybe they will be sent to Minister Gormley's new top of the range incinerator!

peasant

Now ...in principle this would be a good idea if:

- the cars and batteries were made in Ireland and recycled in Ireland after use
- the electricity for those cars were wholly produced from renewable sources (wind/wave/hydro)
- the batteries and motors of these cars were all to the same standard, so that you could actually exchange them between each other
- there was a well thought out network of charging stations all over the country.

But that would mean that Ireland would have to become a totalitarian country with governement controlled energy and car production and distribution facilities


With a hotchpotch of wildly different electric vehicles imported from all over the planet, this will NEVER work

Seth Brundle

Under current technology levels IIRC a drive from Dublin to Cork would require stopping once or probably twice depending on traffic. I can't see people volunteering to switch to this!

galwaytt

lads, lads, lads - ye have it all wrong..........ye need to embrace the technology with all you've got !!

Fug me, I'd buy one !

Seth Brundle

Ugh

galwaytt

yeah, I know, but that's the prototype - production one will have an OEM style one.

However, you'd have to wonder at the justification for spending GBP £150k on the electric version of a GBP £63k car.

I mean, Eur 106k EXTRA, to NOT use petrol ???? :eek: :eek: :eek:

At 10k miles/year, at 25mpg, would take 53 YEARS to recoup the savings :eek: or 26 years, if you include Eur 1400 p.a. car tax.

Yeah, right......:rolleyes:

traco

Firstly let me clarify that I am a gear head, but also fascinated by the electric car and urban transportation in general.

The current policies all Green Noise for Joe Public are not going to achieve signifacnt changes in behaviour.

The electric car is nowhere near market ready yet for several reasons. Any thoughts of buiding a huge electric car business in Ireland is daft, we couldn't even keep Ford in Cork when they were supplying millions of cars to a mature industry.

The current models are OK but still a little too limited in range and this charging station plane is hoping to make up for this short coming. What will happen if you drive into town and can't get a charging station? These cars need to be able to complete journeys round trip with a safety margin as I personally would not risk running out of fuel / electricity on any journey.

Current battery technology is too expensive to achieve greater range, needs to be at least Lithium Ion and for anyone that has bought one for a laptop or phone you know how expensive these are.

Charging stations - not really appicable as it is very difficult to charge Li-Ion quickly due to heat build up in the cells which muct be dissapated, usually large capacity Li-Ions are charged slowly, the biggest portion of the charging process being the balancing of the internal cell which is important for life cycles and maximising range.

Li-Ion cells - 800-1000 cycles in reality, about half that I think for Nimh

Current small electric city cars - basically electric quad bikes with a roof and classed as quadricycles for compliance purposes.

Current models - too small, mainly two seaters so no good for mum with a kids etc etc.

Current cars that are too small will still occupy very similar road space as tradiitional car so no real improvement in congestion and commuting issues.

Of course the real slap comes if youread teh fine print of legislation, they have failed to legalise true electric bicycles, ie those that can move under their own power without the requirement for pedalling.

Also in their cycle to work scheme of 1k allownace for the purchase of a bicycle they have specifically exempted those electric bikes that can be used - ie pedal assisted.

Real policy would require a litte more thought - Alternatiive smaller electric modes of transport need to be legalised properly and VAT exempt. This may encourage change and increase uptake of numerous solutions available but currently too expensive to justify as an additional transportation device in a household.

The RUF and Tesla show what can be done but look at the costs and the siginifant portion of thise prices are the batteries

Goodluck2me

galwaytt wrote: »

lads, lads, lads - ye have it all wrong..........ye need to embrace the technology with all you've got !!

Fug me, I'd buy one !

0-62 IN 7 Seconds is pretty impressive too it has to be said!

galwaytt

traco wrote: »

Current small electric city cars - basically electric quad bikes with a roof and classed as quadricycles for compliance purposes.

Current models - too small, mainly two seaters so no good for mum with a kids etc etc.

Indeed, and worse, they have allowed, nay, promoted, a form of transport that is currently exempt from ANY crash testing or safety tests of any kind.

This is tantamount to negligence, and makes an ass of all the millions of Euro's spent by car manufacturers meeting those legal requirements. For instance, the current Polo weighs (iirc) 1190kg - the 1984 one, weighed 725kg. That's a 60% increase. All this effort in engine technology in 24 years is completely negated by the increase in weight since, much of it safety-related. This is one reason why people still wonder why we're not getting 100mpg out of cars - we can. Take a 2008 engine, stick in a 1984 car, and it will do 100mpg. It's not engine technology that's holding us up here. And this is the problem with the current electric crop -they have as much safety as a 1960's Morris Minor.

But, hey, so long as it's Green, well, that's ok then........:rolleyes:

Of course the real slap comes if youread teh fine print of legislation, they have failed to legalise true electric bicycles, ie those that can move under their own power without the requirement for pedalling.

That, I understand, because if they did, they become Motor Vehicles, and as such, must display number plates, tax disc, insurance and meet lighting requirments.

astrofool

ned78 wrote: »

Brilliant. The emissions from the tailpipe shall now be replaced by more emissions from the power stations as they charge all these cars.

The days of being a petrolhead are numbered. I swear there are days I'd love to get the Greens and shove their environmental and political correctness up their holes.

You do know that there is a dramatic difference in the amount of pollution caused by a single small ICE, vs. even a large coal powered, power plant (not to mention that most power will be coming from nuclear powered UK).

Once they get the cars safe enough (possible given the extra space afforded by switching to electric motors), and the charging (also solved from a tech pov, just needs to be mass produced), there is no reason not to go electrical.

The positive environmental impact will be huge.

traco

RE - electric bikes; they are classed as Mechanically Propelled Vehicle which is daft. Other EU legislation exempts MPV's that are only capable of attaining specifc speeds. Much of these figures are related to mobility scooters and electric wheelchairs and is in the region of sub 20kph. I also think that until the the finance act of 2007 electric wheelchairs could have been considered illegal in Ireland as it was then that I beleive the were exempted.

The CO2 issue - this is one figure i have not been able to locate for the car industry - the CO2 footprint of the process of getting the oil from the ground to the pump. I have all the figures for the ESB based on their current power station data, ie CO2/MW

For some reason the anti-electric side always bring up the emmissions from producing the electricity in the first place but it is always conveniently left out in the case of the car. I would love to know what is produced in getting the petrol to the pump and car producers only quote emmissions from the exhaust.

Another factor that in imprortant in the electricity terms is that if the vehicles are charged at night they are storing the energy that would be disappated. Peopel need to understand that just because you turn your lights off at night the power station down the road does not switch off, it will produce power straight trough and is therefore better to be stored in transport.

Electric cars are coming but the technology is not there yet, if it was you can be sure Toyota, Nissan, Ford, GM etc would be producing them. I think that when it arrives the current models have no chance as the marketing, production and distribution networks of the big boys will totally take over.

madaboutcars

What about hydrogen/fuel cells?

Are they not bothering with these any more?

Owen

astrofool wrote: »

You do know that there is a dramatic difference in the amount of pollution caused by a single small ICE, vs. even a large coal powered, power plant (not to mention that most power will be coming from nuclear powered UK).

Aha yes, but you see, if we go to a situation where 60000 Electric cars are sold a year, and these need constant charging, the drain on the grid will be enormous. Not to mention the environmental cost in actually manufacturing these cars - where ever that's done. It might be environmentally more responsible to hang onto the car you have, rather than the huge energy and raw material requirement for building a new one.

astrofool wrote: »

Once they get the cars safe enough (possible given the extra space afforded by switching to electric motors),

Not so! Take the new MINI E for example, it had to sacrifice rear seats to fit in the battery packs. Yes the Motors are smaller, and can be built into the wheels, but the battery packs will be enormous.

astrofool wrote: »

The positive environmental impact will be huge.

I think that people are just viewing it on a one car basis. If you were to switch the entire country from fossil fuelled cars to electric ones, the drain on the electricity supply system would be vast, and production would have to increase substantially to compensate, thereby increasing emissions. Then to compound the issue, you'll have the factories building new cars farting out more emissions, and the scrapyards filling up with older used cars creating more of an environmental problem. And then, to really top it all, we're all going to be driving with toxic hazardous products in our cars - ie: the large battery packs.

Electric cars are far from a holy grail I'm afraid.

And anyway, environmentallists are hardly qualified to give a petrolhead a lecture on what an exciting drive is. Exciting for them is knitting a jumper, growing a beard, cycling to work, and hugging a tree. Hippies. God damn hippies!

madaboutcars

Are BMW still going to make internal combustion engines that just so happen to run on hydrogen like the Hydrogen 7 which I saw in the BMW Welt in Munich in September, or are they now focusing on electric power considering they've just released the MINI E?

Cars like the Hydrogen 7 seem like a good idea, no emissions but still they can make all the sounds a petrol engine makes so there'll still be the fun factor of a good sounding petrol engine if you like, so what's stopping them from going down this road?

galwaytt

traco wrote: »

The CO2 issue - this is one figure i have not been able to locate for the car industry - the CO2 footprint of the process of getting the oil from the ground to the pump. I have all the figures for the ESB based on their current power station data, ie CO2/MW
For some reason the anti-electric side always bring up the emmissions from producing the electricity in the first place but it is always conveniently left out in the case of the car. I would love to know what is produced in getting the petrol to the pump and car producers only quote emmissions from the exhaust.

Why does it matter ?.... they're going to extract it anyway - if it doesn't get turned into fuel, it gets turned into fertiliser or plastics, anyway (which, curiously.......electric cars will be made of !). The oil countries aren't going to leave it in the ground anyway, so it will be consumed, and the CO2 will be produced, irrespective.

..........Electric cars are coming but the technology is not there yet, if it was you can be sure Toyota, Nissan, Ford, GM etc would be producing them. I think that when it arrives the current models have no chance as the marketing, production and distribution networks of the big boys will totally take over.

Indeed. Worse, if the network degenerates into the farce that is 3G and broadband networks..........well, basically, we're screwed, and we might as well give up now, and save the money. For big, shiney, petrol engined cars.

If they do the job, efficiently, I have no hang up about getting an electric car. But it has to make sense.

You're forgetting there are millions of vehicles in use already, and it is not good sense, economic or environmental, to dump them just to build shiney new electric ones. Far more prudent, and environmental, to use them until they no longer give good service. Remember, 80% (iirc) of a vehicles entire CO2 output over it's life, comes from it's manufacture. Making all new electric ones therefore adds............80% ??

astrofool

ned78 wrote: »

Aha yes, but you see, if we go to a situation where 60000 Electric cars are sold a year, and these need constant charging, the drain on the grid will be enormous. Not to mention the environmental cost in actually manufacturing these cars - where ever that's done. It might be environmentally more responsible to hang onto the car you have, rather than the huge energy and raw material requirement for building a new one.

The savings in not having to import and distribute petrol for 60000 cars will be significant, it's also much easier to add capacity to the grid, either by adding generators to current plants, or buying from another grid. If it costs €40 to fill a car up at the pump, it would cost less than 10% of that to "fill up" on the grid.

Cars are being manufactured anyway, better the new ones be more environmentally friendly (and all new cars have to be recyclable).

ned78 wrote: »

Not so! Take the new MINI E for example, it had to sacrifice rear seats to fit in the battery packs. Yes the Motors are smaller, and can be built into the wheels, but the battery packs will be enormous.

You're contradicting yourself here, if the motors are built into the wheels, what do you think can go into the engine bay? Or what about space taken up by the fuel tank? Batteries take up room when they are retro fit to current designs, a ground up design would have no such restriction.

ned78 wrote: »

I think that people are just viewing it on a one car basis. If you were to switch the entire country from fossil fuelled cars to electric ones, the drain on the electricity supply system would be vast, and production would have to increase substantially to compensate, thereby increasing emissions. Then to compound the issue, you'll have the factories building new cars farting out more emissions, and the scrapyards filling up with older used cars creating more of an environmental problem. And then, to really top it all, we're all going to be driving with toxic hazardous products in our cars - ie: the large battery packs.

Electric cars are far from a holy grail I'm afraid.

And anyway, environmentallists are hardly qualified to give a petrolhead a lecture on what an exciting drive is. Exciting for them is knitting a jumper, growing a beard, cycling to work, and hugging a tree. Hippies. God damn hippies!

Battery packs can also be recycled, unlike petrol.

Anyway, the move away from petrol is happening, whether the petrol heads like it or not.

Owen

astrofool wrote: »

If it costs €40 to fill a car up at the pump, it would cost less than 10% of that to "fill up" on the grid.

If you think the Government aren't going to make sure electricity from special electric car outlets isn't going to be taxed to hell and back, it's a wonderful world you live in.

astrofool wrote: »

You're contradicting yourself here, if the motors are built into the wheels, what do you think can go into the engine bay? Or what about space taken up by the fuel tank? Batteries take up room when they are retro fit to current designs, a ground up design would have no such restriction.

I'm not contradicting myself at all. The new MINI E, which is on the roads in America, has battery packs where the back seats should be. There will need to be significant space devoted to battery packs, which includes under the bonnet, under the boot floor, and currently, where the back seats are.

And of course in time all those problems will be surmounted, but for the time being, an electric car in Ireland is a stupid idea.

astrofool wrote: »

Anyway, the move away from petrol is happening, whether the petrol heads like it or not.

Indeedy. The move is on. Call me in 20 years when the infrastructure is there to support it.

bazz26

Hopefully the Greens will be long gone before this nightmare comes a reality.

Furp

I would just like to point out that electric cars are coming and some are even here and they don't' have to be slow or lacking in driving experience.

The Tesla Roadster is already in customers hands, you can buy one in Europe if you have a hundred grand. http://www.teslamotors.com/ But the price is not the point at the moment, what they are doing is selling an expensive car first so that they can drive the cost down. The next car a sedan they hope to make and sell for $60,000 or less. and the car after that cheaper again. The Roadster whose underpinnings are made by lotus can go 0-60 in under 4 seconds, gets 200+ miles from a full charge and has only 1 gear meaning that all the torque is available from a standing start.

Check out http://www.dragtimes.com/video-viewer.php?v=zTgMW_aYGQA
or
http://www.mahalo.com/Tesla_Roadster


GM are also working on a electric car but with a gasoline range extender, called the Volt. The drive train is completely electric and they hope the batteries will last for 40+ miles then the petrol engine kicks in to charge the batteries, or you can plug it on over night. http://gm-volt.com/

Owen

Furp wrote: »

I would just like to point out that electric cars are coming and some are even here and they don't' have to be slow or lacking in driving experience.

Of course they're not slow, the figures for all electric cars' acceleration is very impressive, but without the sound of an real petrol engine, it will not be a driving experience. It will be a fast milk float.

Furp

ned78 wrote: »

Of course they're not slow, the figures for all electric cars' acceleration is very impressive, but without the sound of an real petrol engine, it will not be a driving experience. It will be a fast milk float.

I'm not so sure I have been following the development of electric cars for the past few years the sound of the Tesla Roadster is different although from what I have heard it sounds pleasing. And I'm sure all that torque and acceleration more then makes up for the lack of engine noise.

Imagine no matter what speed you are doing to be it 30 or 50 and being able to put you foot to the floor and having full acceleration always on tap.

Owen

Furp wrote: »

I'm not so sure I have been following the development of electric cars for the past few years the sound of the Tesla Roadster is different although from what I have heard it sounds pleasing. And I'm sure all that torque and acceleration more then makes up for the lack of engine noise.

Tell you what, we'll get a washing machine electric car, a 64 Mustang V8, an e46 M3 (6 Cylinder) and Ferrari F40. Let's rev them all, and see which makes the nicest noise.

Furp wrote: »

Imagine no matter what speed you are doing to be it 30 or 50 and being able to put you foot to the floor and having full acceleration always on tap.

My engine is supercharged. I always have full acceleration on tap.

astrofool

ned78 wrote: »

If you think the Government aren't going to make sure electricity from special electric car outlets isn't going to be taxed to hell and back, it's a wonderful world you live in.

Electric cars can be plugged into any outlet, but your argument is turning to one of tax, rather than power needed, which is a completely different thing.

ned78 wrote: »

I'm not contradicting myself at all. The new MINI E, which is on the roads in America, has battery packs where the back seats should be. There will need to be significant space devoted to battery packs, which includes under the bonnet, under the boot floor, and currently, where the back seats are.

Batteries will get smaller and more efficient, again, the Mini is an adapted petrol vehicle, batteries don't have to be a single block, and can be evenly distributed (as you say), but remove the petrol tank and combustion engine from a car, and you have plenty of space for batteries, without compromising usable space.

ned78 wrote: »

Of course they're not slow, the figures for all electric cars' acceleration is very impressive, but without the sound of an real petrol engine, it will not be a driving experience. It will be a fast milk float.

Drive a tractor if you really want that loud fossil fuel engine sound