Honda to retire from F1?

ro_chez

I just saw this on Sky News! It looks like Honda may be out of F1!

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2008/12/04/honda-to-announce-retirement-on-friday/

muckwarrior

If I was a minute sooner there'd have been three of these threads

Pretty shocking if it's true. Especially since there's a good chance Toyota could follow suit.

thegoth

I saw this coming for about 8 years. Since Honda chose BAR to partner with instead of Jordan. I never understood this decision.

Jordan - A time that over achieved with limited resources. They run how to run a very tight ship, and definitly got the best band per buck

BAR - Wasted vast sums of money and had much less sucess than Jordan with far more resources.

When Honda eventually took BAR over in 2005, it was obvious that they were buying a team with a very wasteful culture. This can be seen by the fact that last year Honda spent the most of any F1 team, about £40 million more than the next team ( McLaren, who almpst won the drivers championship ), yet they finished one of the worst teams on the grid. They had to go. I really suspect Toyota will follow very soon.

smooch71

It's official, they're gone.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72322

I agree that Toyota will be next. They're in F1 since 2002 and haven't won a race. Toyota are used to dominating any kind of motorsport they get involved in. WRC, Le Man, Indycar etc. The chiefs in Japan will react to Honda and pull out too.

Where does that leave Button I wonder. And so much for the Senna name back in Formula 1 next year. Ain't gonna happen now..

oneofakind32

Honda and toyota are/were a joke in F1. Especially if you consider what Renault did on half there budget. Looks like privateers are going to be back in F1 in a big way in the next couple of years, what with the new cosworth engine deal

smooch71

If they're all going to use the same engine then it's hardly the "pinnacle of motorsport" any more is it?

And when you see how ugly next years cars are....

It looks like GP2 may be a more interesting bet in the future but the FIA will probably kill that off too.

justfortherecor

smooch71 wrote:

And when you see how ugly next years cars are....

He isn't joking
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/p90044523.jpg

:eek:

dcr22B

It would be great to see Toyota back in the WRC where they could always win

RayM

smooch71 wrote: »

If they're all going to use the same engine then it's hardly the "pinnacle of motorsport" any more is it?

And when you see how ugly next years cars are....

It's better than the alternative though, which is to carry on spending vast and unsustainable sums of money until there aren't any teams left. A few years with the pinnacle of driving talent using ugly souped-up GP2 cars may well save the sport.

muckwarrior

RayM wrote: »

It's better than the alternative though, which is to carry on spending vast and unsustainable sums of money until there aren't any teams left. A few years with the pinnacle of driving talent using ugly souped-up GP2 cars may well save the sport.

But the problem isn't that engines cost too much to develop. It's that give a team a budget of x million to spend and they'll find something to spend it on no matter what. For years now certain manufacturers have taken the approach that to improve performance you simply need to pump more money into the team, which has led to preposterous budgets.

thegoth

F1 will still be the pinnacle of motorsport for the following reasons

1) This global downturn does not just effect F1. All other types of motorsport will have to make cutbacks as well

2) The best drivers in the world are in F1

3) F1 will still be on the cutting edge of technology development in the form of KERS. Just because the engines willl be standard, does not mean that other new, more relevant areas of technology are not seeing the light of day first in F1. If aerodynamic development continued it would ruin the sport with winglets everywhere and no overtaking as a result of dirty air. I agree the cars are ugly, but maybe that can be sorted in time

Standard engines are a good thing. Lets look at what, might happen if its not done

The global crisis continues. Car sales do not recover or get worst. All the big car companies are under pressure, BMW, Totota, Renault, and need to cut costs. What will be one of the first ways to cut costs. The F1 program. That will leave F1 with 5-6 teams at most. Ferrari, McLaren, Force India, Williams, Red Bull, and Toro Rosso. This assumes that Red Bull will run two teams, which it says it will not. That is hardly the pinnacle of motorsport ?

In summary, if F1 is to continue long term, it needs to insure that F1 teams are sustainable by teamselves, without needing hand outs from big manufacturers. F1 needs to be a teams core businness, not a spin off, a way of selling more product, like it is for Totota and all the other manufacturers.

To people that say the standard engine means that F1 is not pinnacle of motorsport I say that the standard engine ensures that F1 remains at pinnacle of motorsport

oneofakind32

smooch71 wrote: »

If they're all going to use the same engine then it's hardly the "pinnacle of motorsport" any more is it?

And when you see how ugly next years cars are....

It looks like GP2 may be a more interesting bet in the future but the FIA will probably kill that off too.

If you read the article I linked to, it says that manufacturers can uphold there right to build there own engines and that the cosworth engines are an option

smooch71

But what's next?

A standard chassis to go along with the standard engine and standard tyres?

Formula 1 is slowly but surely becoming a spec series and there is already a glut of those around at the minute, IRL, Superleague Formula, A1GP, GP2 and Formula 2 on the way back next year.

The attraction of F1 was that the teams built their own cars, the manufacturers built their own engines. It would break my heart to see Formula 1 disappear (it happened the states to IndyCar in the 90s) but likewise I would hate to see it become a shadow of its former self and that's what I fear is happening.

thegoth

The relality is that F1 is a much different place than it was even 8 to 10 years ago.

When Joran started out in the 1990's, it was mostly indepdent teams, whos catering was sandwiches made by the engineers wives. This is no joke. No a days we have motor homes worth 6-10 million euro. This is only one small example of how costs have cost have increased.

I agree that there is alot to be said for having different spec cars, but there is also alot to be said for having cars that are more similar. I not sure what my opinion is yet, but one advantage of having more similar cars is that the racing is much closer, and drivers can be judged better. I like that

Even if you want to have different engines and cars....., well first of all you have to have an F1 series. Unless costs are cut by a very large amount immeditely, then there is a VERY REAL danger is F1 going out of business. For the next few years standard engines are the best way of saving costs. It should only be seen in that way, and revisited again in a few years. If amyone has better ideas of saving a similar amount of money then say it, but the fact remains that costs need to be reduced by a considerable amount

Firewalkwithme

Another team for Red Bull to buy no doubt!

This could be the tipping point for F1 here, the first of the big manufacturers to bow out. Call me old fashioned but I would welcome a return to the days of fully independant teams with works / customer engine supply.

If we were to see a sudden shift in that direction, I have a hunch that Williams could see a major resurgence since they never really changed from that model.

thegoth

Cartoon_Head wrote: »

Another team for Red Bull to buy no doubt!

This could be the tipping point for F1 here, the first of the big manufacturers to bow out. Call me old fashioned but I would welcome a return to the days of fully independant teams with works / customer engine supply.

If we were to see a sudden shift in that direction, I have a hunch that Williams could see a major resurgence since they never really changed from that model.

Totall Agree

mickdw

Cartoon_Head wrote: »

This could be the tipping point for F1 here, the first of the big manufacturers to bow out. Call me old fashioned but I would welcome a return to the days of fully independant teams with works / customer engine supply.

If we were to see a sudden shift in that direction, I have a hunch that Williams could see a major resurgence since they never really changed from that model.

Ya i preferred it when you had the independant teams. The sooner it returns to this the better. Maybe a return of Eddie Jordan too!

cashmni1

Yes, the TDI and the HDI diesels have a lot more on their plate than F1. The sucess in Le Mans 24 sells cars in a big way.
F1 - the ultimate in car racing.
You need to commit. Renaults' head man, (not Flavio) said at the time when Alonso was winning F1 races, in France, said "We will stay in F1 as long as we are winning".
In other words, this is costing us so much money, as soon as the glory days are over and we are NOT at the top of the heap, cut the losses.
Anyway, how come the most profitable car makers on earth are not in F1..?

Porsche.

Because they will lose money competing in a sport which costs a whole heap of money just to prove that the competitor is worthy of competing in the said sport.

There is a lot of respect for teams in F1, and for good reason.
BMW have really impressed me this year. All the usuals have thrown money at the sport and have gotten the results. It saddens me to see a good company like Honda, a truly innovative company not compete with the "rest" of them.
Teams like Honda make F1. I hope someone will buiy them, or re-name them or something....or something else to keep the good 'ol boys in the sport (RB)

EvilMonkey

I dont get this it seemed like Honda was finally getting their act together and with the new regulations evening up the field next year they had a chance of making a leap forward. I think this is a result of loosing the Canadian GP. No race in north America, probably Honda's (and the other manufactures) biggest markets cant be a good thing for selling cars/sponsorship. I hope they can find a buyer and soon so they can get on with developing a car for next year otherwise they wont be able to compete even if they do find a buyer and will be a joke again.

Firewalkwithme

mickdw wrote: »

Ya i preferred it when you had the independant teams. The sooner it returns to this the better. Maybe a return of Eddie Jordan too!

Jordan will never come back now IMO. Even if he did I could never get behind him like before since Paul Stoddart busted him on how he basically sold out and also ruined the chances of survival for the all of the smaller teams at the same time.

Stoddart really was a believer in the sport of F1 and would be an asset if he were to ever return.

E92

I think it was inevitable.

The sooner Eccelstone and Mosley get out of the way and let some sense of normality come back the better. Their heads are so far up their ar$€ it's not even funny.

Who here remembers the V12 engines?

Now they really were amazing.

The V8s are so tame sounding compared to the V12s. Actually even the V10s were far better sounding too.

Now they're talking about a standard engine.

This is like bloody Formula Ford, everyone has the same thing.

I know BMW, Ferrari and Toyota are saying that they will pull out if they are forced to use a standardised engine.

And Cosworth engines are going to be ****e, they always were, remeber how bad they were in "Jaguar Cosworth" and all those other crappy teams that used Cosworth engines?

What is drastically needed is less interfering by the FIA top brass and not changing the rules every second hour.

Just leave the thing alone for some time.

One thing I'd love to see is the introduction of more advanced technology.

Why not make direct injection petrol engines compulsory? That way you could make a difference to the environment(since they say they're so worried about all that kind of crap) and also present a new engineering challenge. It could mean that they would have to go back to bigger engines if the cars weren't able to have a certain level of power.

I think the cars should have a no fuel stop rule too. I think rthat would be *far* more exciting than a power limit.

F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport, why should we be physically limiting revs or power from the engine?

Why not make the cars do a minimum amount of mpg but let the car makers use whatever engine/fuel combination they want? let them spec the engine whatever way they want but make them all have a standard fuel tank size and no pit stop limit?

Wouldn't that be radical and thinking outside the box? that way you would force the manufactures to have to come up with radical new ways of getting the car around the track on the least possible amount of fuel. After all in road cars they're all trying to improve mpg withou compromising performance, so why can't we do the same in the pinnacle of motorsport instead of power limit and mandatory smaller engine crap?

Oh and I think that the drivers should not be allowed have any form of electronic aids whatsoever, and that includes gearboxes. Proper manual gearboxes ftw!

EvilMonkey

E92 wrote: »

The sooner Eccelstone and Mosley get out of the way and let some sense of normality come back the better. Their heads are so far up their ar$€ it's not even funny.

I agree 100% with this. I don't agree with you about cosworth but i really don't want ti see any more standardising in f1.
If they need to cut costs why cant they limit the no of staff a team can employ, bring in a budget cap, limit the amount wind tunnel testing, ban simulators(the big teams have them the rest don't its not fair), restrict the amount of gear all the teams ship around the world to each GP i can probably think of loads more before ****ing around with the cars/engines/rules to save money.
This kers yoke is costing a fortune why not scrap it for a year or two until the teams finances are in order.

thegoth

EvilMonkey wrote: »

I agree 100% with this. I don't agree with you about cosworth but i really don't want ti see any more standardising in f1.
If they need to cut costs why cant they limit the no of staff a team can employ, bring in a budget cap, limit the amount wind tunnel testing, ban simulators(the big teams have them the rest don't its not fair), restrict the amount of gear all the teams ship around the world to each GP i can probably think of loads more before ****ing around with the cars/engines/rules to save money.
This kers yoke is costing a fortune why not scrap it for a year or two until the teams finances are in order.

Good point eveilmonkey. Your the first person here that voiced an opinion against the standard engine who actually suggests alternatives.

I still think that the standard engine is the best way to save money for maybe the next 2 or 3 years, but what I would suggest is having a standard engine until say the end of the 2010 season then, have a budget cap of €75 million including engines and all benefits in kind

Robbo

Hang on, are we still calling it a "standard engine" when it's nothing of the sort? I was under the impression from the last decree of Max that it was a collective bargaining deal with Cosworth for the engine and Ricardo/Xtrac for the gearbox? If you don't want in, fine, but the more that join the cheaper it would be.

I fail to see the problem of this. We're still not to far from the days when a Cosworth DFV was all you needed to start building an F1 car and Hewland used to supply a fair number of the gearboxes on the grid.

thegoth

Robbo, it is a standard engine.

These are the options

- Buy the engine from Cosworth

- the right to build an engine themselves, identical to the above, having been supplied with all the necessary technical information;

- the right to continue to use their existing engine, with the current ban on development and requirement for engine parity still in place (noting that the engine supplied will become the reference engine for output and other performance indicators and no engine will be permitted to exceed those indicators).

Basically means that you 1) either buy the engine from cosworth, 2) built the cosworth engine yourself, or 3) Make sure that the engine you build yourself i.e Ferrari, BMW ..... has the same performance as the cosworth engine i.e Horse power, torque, weight .....

In summary, all engines will be the same

See http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_4591183,00.html

Frank Bullitt

Can you imagine the fall in viewings if F1 goes to a standard engine, I for one wont even bother to watch it anyway, now thats when the real money will disappear,when no one goes to or watchs F1!!!!!!!

amacachi

I know I only watch to see the pretty engines going around.

muckwarrior

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbCcGQXuqXw

I know engines aren't the be all and end all of F1 but it's cutting edge stuff like this that make a lot of people go wow and is one of the key reasons why many people follow the sport.

thegoth

The racing will still be the same. At the moment there is little difference between all the engines in F1 with the exception of Renault, which is crap, but they are being allowed to bring it up to spec over the winter. The engines will still be cutting edge, the only difference is that they wont cost €50 a year. If you are watching F1, can you tell the difference weather copper or gold is used in an engine ( which it was by Merc ) !!!! No.

In short, there will be no negative effect on F1 for having standard engines as the engines are really closely matched at the moment.

Having a standard engine might help Prodrive take over Honda, which can only be a good thing for F1 and close racing

EvilMonkey

I know I only watch to see the pretty engines going around.

Except if Ferrari engine blows up and costs them a win its their fault, if Ferrari powered by Cosworth with a Ferrari badge blows up who's fault is it? Replace Ferrari with any of the teams that build their own engine. Assuming only the customer teams take the Cosworth and it has problems they are stuck with it. The current engines are proven to work, they have already agreed to freeze engine development any way so their wont be much spent on development. The teams know how hard they can push their engines and have full control over quality control.

thegoth

EvilMonkey,

You are right to a point. The engines are frozen, but with one very very important clause. Teams can make changes to the engine if they can prove one of two things

1) That the change makes the engine cheaper

2) That the change makes the engine more reliable.

Teams are spending a fortune making changes to their engines that comply with the one of the two points above AND increase performance. The exception to this is Renault. That is why their engine is now down on power

EvilMonkey

thegoth wrote: »

EvilMonkey,

You are right to a point. The engines are frozen, but with one very very important clause. Teams can make changes to the engine if they can prove one of two things

1) That the change makes the engine cheaper

2) That the change makes the engine more reliable.

Teams are spending a fortune making changes to their engines that comply with the one of the two points above AND increase performance. The exception to this is Renault. That is why their engine is now down on power

I realise this is what has been happening but the fia have to agree to changes so the could start saying no. It just shows that they make these changes without thinking then through fully.

Cookie_Monster

Any update on this?

I presume that since we are now in the new year and no announcement of a sale has been made the Honda are gone and there will be two less cars on the grid.