Waterford City Bypass - Not motorway. A mistake?

BluntGuy

There has been some confusion as to whether the Waterford Bypass is motorway or not.

I can confirm having e-mailed* the NRA myself that it is not motorway (despite what some documentation may say). Furthermore, the NRA have confirmed that they have no plans to redesignate this or any other stretch of road to motorway in a third tranche of redesignations.

What are your thoughts on this?


* You can view the e-mail here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055434004

G_R

it needs to be motorway. tractors etc should not be allowed anywhere near any of the new roads. This needs motorway restrictions. No question.

Stark

Something fishy going on surely? From what I can remember, this scheme was designated the M25 long before there was any talk of turning hte HQDCs into motorways. There must have been some strong local objectors.

BluntGuy

Apparently it was meant to be motorway as evidenced by this piece of official documentation:

G_R

BluntGuy wrote: »

Apparently it was meant to be motorway as evidenced by this piece of official documentation:

so then what has happened. Why is it not motorway anymore

L1011

Surely this *has* to be motorway to prevent a Mahon Point Mk2 getting slapped on it in the next economic upturn?

BluntGuy

dannym08 wrote: »

so then what has happened. Why is it not motorway anymore

I honestly don't know...

All I know is that the NRA have confirmed it in e-mails to me on two occasions...

The N25 Waterford bypass website also confirms it:

Cable Stay Bridge carrying dual carriageway (D2AP) over the River Suir crossing between Waterford and Kilkenny.

Notice the terminology? It's D2AP (All-purpose dual two-lane carriageway) rather than D2M (motorway dual two-lane carriageway).

Other websites refer to it as simply DC as well.

BluntGuy

MYOB wrote: »

Surely this *has* to be motorway to prevent a Mahon Point Mk2 getting slapped on it in the next economic upturn?

You know, I'm beginning to think that's partially the reason this wasn't ultiamtely designated motorway.

Look at all the golden oppurtunities for inappropiate retail parks along the route. The Granny junction. Two roundabouts! Two big beautiful roundabouts that are literally yelping out for a handful of extra exits leading to sprawling business parks and retail development.

It's a corrupt councillor's dream come true... :rolleyes:

G_R

BluntGuy wrote: »

You know, I'm beginning to think that's partially the reason this wasn't ultiamtely designated motorway.

Look at all the golden oppurtunities for inappropiate retail parks along the route. The Granny junction. Two roundabouts! Two big beautiful roundabouts that are literally yelping out for a handful of extra exits leading to sprawling business parks and retail development.

It's a corrupt councillor's dream come true... :rolleyes:

wouldn't surprise me.... i wish the NRA could stand up tp these people and push through the motorway order...

BluntGuy

dannym08 wrote: »

wouldn't surprise me.... i wish the NRA could stand up tp these people and push through the motorway order...

So do I... I can't honestly see why this isn't M. None of the old route is being subsumed by the new road, and there is no place for pedestrians, tractors etc. on any of that route (let alone the bridge which is a deathtrap).

Maybe this will open with blue signs, in which case it becomes a very contentious issue as I don't think any motorway order is attached to it.

road_high

So we're going to have the double pain of a toll on a non-motorway?

Will it be the the only non-Mway toll road in the country if this is not changed?

BluntGuy

mfitzy wrote: »

So we're going to have the double pain of a toll on a non-motorway?

Will it be the the only non-Mway toll road in the country if this is not changed?

Nope. You won't even get that honour.

The East-Link in Dublin is a non-motorway toll road.

Zoney

dannym08 wrote: »

wouldn't surprise me.... i wish the NRA could stand up tp these people and push through the motorway order...

Yeah, but look at how things work here. Cause grief to the government/Fianna Fail and you get a nice slashed budget or even abolished/merged.

Irish and Proud

BluntGuy wrote: »

You know, I'm beginning to think that's partially the reason this wasn't ultiamtely designated motorway.

Look at all the golden oppurtunities for inappropiate retail parks along the route. The Granny junction. Two roundabouts! Two big beautiful roundabouts that are literally yelping out for a handful of extra exits leading to sprawling business parks and retail development.

It's a corrupt councillor's dream come true... :rolleyes:

FF, make this road motorway now or you won't be getting my vote next time around. I'm sick and tired of developers and speculators ruling the roost in this country. Maybe all these current wasteful retail parks which abut major motorway junctions could be blitzed to may way for proper spaghetti junctions and park and ride sites. After all, we'd have more roads, more transport, less traffic!!!

Regards!

fricatus

Irish and Proud wrote: »

FF, make this road motorway now or you won't be getting my vote next time around. I'm sick and tired of developers and speculators ruling the roost in this country. Maybe all these current wasteful retail parks which abut major motorway junctions could be blitzed to may way for proper spaghetti junctions and park and ride sites. After all, we'd have more roads, more transport, less traffic!!!

Regards!

I think something that makes this more important is the fact that this project runs through three separate local authority areas: Co Waterford, Waterford City and Co Kilkenny, so you have three chances of a dodgy planning decision, not just one.

Don't forget that both the county councils have in the past authorised large edge-of-town retail developments that have been accused of undermining city-centre retail (Butlerstown Retail Park in Co Waterford and the as yet unopened Ferrybank centre - in Co Kilkenny, but right on the city boundary).

Bards

fricatus wrote: »

I think something that makes this more important is the fact that this project runs through three separate local authority areas: Co Waterford, Waterford City and Co Kilkenny, so you have three chances of a dodgy planning decision, not just one.

Don't forget that both the county councils have in the past authorised large edge-of-town retail developments that have been accused of undermining city-centre retail (Butlerstown Retail Park in Co Waterford and the as yet unopened Ferrybank centre - in Co Kilkenny, but right on the city boundary).

and to lodge a submission or view the plans you have to travel to either Dungarvan in Co. Waterford or Kilkenny city which does not make it easy to stop these unwarranted developments

D.L.R.

This was definitely billed as Motorway. Not HQDC, not All Purpose DC, but Motorway.

Because of the HQDC/Motorway era (which we're thankfully coming to the end of), the terms are still too vague in Ireland. Hopefully with the reclassifications out of the way the term "Motorway" will carry more weight in the future.

As it is, people like journalists and councillors regularly use the terms "Motorway" and "DC" interchangeably.

The whole redesignations episode, while I'm glad its happened, allows for things like this to slip past the public unnoticed. All the legal loopholes should've been closed well before any of the new Ms opened as temporary 100km/h HQDCs. But then, thats the motto of the Celtic Tiger, ain't it: "Shoulda Woulda Coulda"

BluntGuy

D.L.R. wrote: »

This was definitely billed as Motorway. Not HQDC, not All Purpose DC, but Motorway.

Yes, I thought so too...

But the NRA have confirmed as well as other websites that is D2AP. It would be quite embarrassing to think that the NRA don't know the status of their own scheme.

D.L.R. wrote:

As it is, people like journalists and councillors regularly use the terms "Motorway" and "DC" interchangeably.

Yes, and it's a bad habit that people need to get out of. I keep seeing references to the N7 scheme which is then suddenly called the M7, and then back to the N7 again. Or the N8 which is then called the M8 and vice verca. It's annoying, and creates confusion.

Yes, motorways are technically dual-carriageways (most of the time), but in common parlance they are entirely different things. Journalists and councillors really need to learn this.

Lennoxschips

dannym08 wrote: »

wouldn't surprise me.... i wish the NRA could stand up tp these people and push through the motorway order...

yeah, well the NRA board is stuffed with property developers and friends of politicians.

maybe if we put engineers in charge of the NRA we might get somewhere...

G_R

Lennoxschips wrote: »

yeah, well the NRA board is stuffed with property developers and friends of politicians.

maybe if we put engineers in charge of the NRA we might get somewhere...

now theres an idea

SeanW

I used to like the idea of HQDCs - making good town bypasses and long distance roads that anyone can use, L Drivers, tractors etc particularly for primary town bypasses, where the alternative for forbidden traffic is to go through a town centre.

And I still feel this way to a point, at very least, that no further categories of road user should be added to the "not on the motorways list" which is one of the main reasons I object to the stupid R-plate proposals, made by a bunch of clueless gob****es who thought, "oh look, they did it in the North we must follow. It'll be great."

But seeing how the M regulations are needed to make the higher speed safe (120kph in general vs 100kph for N reg roads) AND seeing how M regulations are needed in some cases to protect the road from being developed onto and being turned into a middle-of-nowhere Main St. by certain local authorities (Clare Co. Co, I'm looking at you!) makes me much warmer to the idea that any dual carriageway at GSDC (Grade Separated Dual Carriageway) standard or above, should have an MRO (Motorway Regulation Order) slapped on it post-haste.

So, to me this has mistake (or corruption) written all over it.

L1011

R plate drivers are, perversely, allowed on to NI motorways but with a max speed of 45mph!

Amtmann

In a recent email, I put it to the NRA that not making the bypass a motorway is a mistake, and that it risks turning it into the Waterford version of the atrociously busy Cork South Ring Road (which, ironically, is also the N25). I asked them to explain why the bypass will open as an N-road.

This is what they had to say:

Thank you for your email regarding the Waterford City Bypass.

The preliminary design for the N25 Waterford City Bypass was completed in the year 2000 and the design of the road was to a rural dual carriageway standard. The Environmental Impact Statement and Compulsory Purchase Order documentation which were published in 2001, were produced on this basis. The proposed carriageway type was selected on the basis of the forecast traffic volumes, together with the overall network strategy for the region. There are no plans at this time to make an application to the Minister for Transport under section 8 of the Roads Act, 2007 for motorway designation in respect of the Waterford City bypass.

While a motorway status would preclude direct access to the road under legislation, similar development control is exercised by the local authority and the NRA in relation to high quality dual carriageways. It should be noted that the Authority has the status of a statutory consultee under planning legislation and, accordingly, planning authorities must notify the Authority of planning applications which affect the use of a national road. The Planning and Development Regulations enables the Authority to make submissions or observations to the planning authority in respect of such planning applications. The Authority will, as a general rule, object to planning applications for development that would have unacceptable consequences for the capacity, operation, efficiency or safety of national roads.

nordydan

What is the speed limit on this road going to be???

BluntGuy

nordydan wrote: »

What is the speed limit on this road going to be???

One would assume that it will carry the standard 100 km/h national road limit.

AugustusMaximus

Furet wrote: »

In a recent email, I put it to the NRA that not making the bypass a motorway is a mistake, and that it risks turning it into the Waterford version of the atrociously busy Cork South Ring Road (which, ironically, is also the N25). I asked them to explain why the bypass will open as an N-road.

This is what they had to say:

Not good enough.

Something stinks to high heaven here.

BluntGuy

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

Not good enough.

Something stinks to high heaven here.

Much agreed. Their logic is very vague. They cannot give any concrete reasons why this stretch should not be motorway despite the fact that common sense would suggest that it should be.

As for the reasoning that:

The Authority will, as a general rule, object to planning applications for development that would have unacceptable consequences for the capacity, operation, efficiency or safety of national roads.

Perhaps, however, I must just point out two things:

1) Mahon Point.

2) The NRA has no power to stop developement, it can only object to it. Only a motorway order gives them that ability.

I have e-mailed the NRA anyway with another question related to this, and that is why certain documentation has this labelled as motorway.

nordydan

BluntGuy wrote: »

One would assume that it will carry the standard 100 km/h national road limit.

Indeed but is this stated in documentation anywhere, and is it designed for 120km/hr (as I assume it is)??

BluntGuy

nordydan wrote: »

Indeed but is this stated in documentation anywhere, and is it designed for 120km/hr (as I assume it is)??

The design seems to be for 100 km/h. The at-grade roundabouts at each terminus of the scheme have been designed to all removal (so that the scheme can blend seemlessly into the rest of the N25 when it eventually gets upgraded to DC).

This document has the scheme listed as motorway:

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/8708-0.doc

These websites have it has motorway:

ACS (a provisional concessionaire for the Waterford Bypass) lists the project as motorway (which states to me, that clearly in whatever briefs they were given, they were instructed to build the road as motorway):

http://217.116.23.182/index.php/en/c/pressroom_news_pressreleases/1/16

A Waterford Newspaper - Published at the beginning of construction:

http://www.waterford-today.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=613&Itemid=10232&ed=24

I also remember CRG (the group constructing the road) having it listed as 2x2 motorway.

Something is indeed strange...

BluntGuy

E-mail from the NRA. Seems this really is going ahead as D2AP...

4) When will the Waterford City bypass be complete? I have seen numerous opening dates ranging from mid-2009 to late 2010. I would just like verification on this issue. Also, in your last e-mail you confirmed that the Waterford Bypass was not motorway, and there were no plans to redesignate it as such. However, this piece of official department documentation seems to list the scheme as motorway: http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/8708-0.doc

I would assume that this document is incorrect. Are there other inaccuracies on this article?

The contract completion date for the Waterford City bypass is August 2010. There doesn't appear to be any other inaccuracies in the article you refer to, however, it was published a few years ago and the status of some road schemes has changed since then and a number of routes have been redesignated to motorway status.

Amtmann

Some photos courtesy of Jambo on the Waterford City forum:

Jambo wrote: »

Here is a few pics I managed to get today , as you can see the Bridge seems to be progressing well .

Carawaystick

That's great stuff, Cable stayed bridges look so cool in construction. I remember cycling out to Dundrum to see the dargan(luas) bridge being built while there was about 20m left to fill the gap. It looks like the bridge was levitating.

JupiterKid

It's great to see the bridge deck being put into place. The crane has to be the tallest crane in the country.