How many PFOs have you got from solicitors firms?

Jev/N

I think BCM have already contacted people regarding interviews a couple of days before Christmas, didn't apply myself but that's what I heard from friends who did

lawstudent99

hi everyone a query that may not be directed to the right place but I will make an attempt. I am considering commencing the next part of my legal career in fair old Dublin but am quite cautious, given the current financial climate and competition for TC's that I seem to be hearing more and more about. My interest lies in criminal law and would be interested in getting some more information about careers in the public sector as well as legal careers in Ireland other than solicitor/barrister e.g. legal clerk, court clerk etc. Sounds like a tall order but if any learned legal eagles could provide some further information I'd much appreciate it. Your brutal honesty will be much appreciated as to the actual chances of entering these roles.
One other question that seems to be touched on a bit, is how much does the question of connections impact on the Irish legal world? Is Ireland just as I remember it-the endless tales of da's brother, cousins girlfriends best friends sister doing this and that etc? Advice etc will be greatly appreciated!

Irishlawgirl

I don't think I even got an PFO from them. I'm basically out of the running now as all i've applied to so far have been the biggies and haven't been called for an interview.

As for applying to all the other firms - I'll give it a lash eventually however my CV is ridiculously corporate now and I think small firms will know that they were not my first choice/intention because it is that corporate focused but sure - have to give it a shot! Nearly immune to the rejection!!

I just think b'hall will have a very small intake this year consisting mainly of trainees from the biggies.

Also another scary point - this would mean that people applying for 2010 will be exorbitant! However on the flip side - a lot of people are turned off going for law. It all remains to be seen!

TheDemiurge

Irishlawgirl wrote: »

I don't think I even got an PFO from them. I'm basically out of the running now as all i've applied to so far have been the biggies and haven't been called for an interview.

As for applying to all the other firms - I'll give it a lash eventually however my CV is ridiculously corporate now and I think small firms will know that they were not my first choice/intention because it is that corporate focused but sure - have to give it a shot! Nearly immune to the rejection!!

I just think b'hall will have a very small intake this year consisting mainly of trainees from the biggies.

Also another scary point - this would mean that people applying for 2010 will be exorbitant! However on the flip side - a lot of people are turned off going for law. It all remains to be seen!

When you say that your CV is corporate - do you have experience in industry or have you work experience in a corporate law firm already? If I were you at this stage, I'd stick at it, but try to get into a medium sized firm focusing on corporate work. General practice is no longer profitable - cashflow and billing methods are just not good enough - the way it's going you'll need to have a distinct speciality that's geared towards the commercial sector. If you're really keen on doing pursuing law I would stick at getting into a commercial firm. Unfortunately with law it's very hard to move sideways within it once you start, so make sure you begin as you mean to go on.

Irishlawgirl

TheDemiurge wrote: »

When you say that your CV is corporate - do you have experience in industry or have you work experience in a corporate law firm already?

I've work experience within a corporate law firm - i'm working as a paralegal in funds in a top 4 for the past good while. Also have diplomas from the law soc and also taking a few more exams for another sub-related qualification. So i've put the ground work in so I don't think i'll be giving up just yet - but there just doesn't seem to be any pay off so far. I think i've isolated myself completely from small firms - which I know in the long run - they would not be for me (i've already worked as a paralegal in a small civil law firm). And I know there's no hope of ever getting into the big 10 so it really only leaves a marginal, possible, 15 firms - throughout Ireland - which are really corporate medium sized firms! And these are types that are just as hard to get into as the top four! Doom gloom and more despair!

Will send out CV's at the end of this month. I'm practically sick of the sight of my cv at this stage!

Spy

i heard from BCM before Christmas. They are currently interviewing people with a view to having their offers out by the end of this month.

Has anyone heard anything from LK Shields, Landwell or Lennon Heather?

TheDemiurge

Irishlawgirl wrote: »

I've work experience within a corporate law firm - i'm working as a paralegal in funds in a top 4 for the past good while. Also have diplomas from the law soc and also taking a few more exams for another sub-related qualification. So i've put the ground work in so I don't think i'll be giving up just yet - but there just doesn't seem to be any pay off so far. I think i've isolated myself completely from small firms - which I know in the long run - they would not be for me (i've already worked as a paralegal in a small civil law firm). And I know there's no hope of ever getting into the big 10 so it really only leaves a marginal, possible, 15 firms - throughout Ireland - which are really corporate medium sized firms! And these are types that are just as hard to get into as the top four! Doom gloom and more despair!

Will send out CV's at the end of this month. I'm practically sick of the sight of my cv at this stage!

If you're having difficulty then things must be really f**king bad. I thought that funds and financial services (despite recent difficulties in the sector) was the only truly secure area for work and specialisation within Irish law.

Would you consider going into funds full time, as opposed to just the legal end of it?

Irishlawgirl

TheDemiurge wrote: »

If you're having difficulty then things must be really f**king bad. I thought that funds and financial services (despite recent difficulties in the sector) was the only truly secure area for work and specialisation within Irish law.

Would you consider going into funds full time, as opposed to just the legal end of it?

Funds is good area to be in at the moment however really only the big four deal with them and the remainder of the top ten firms would have a small amount of work in them. Wouldn't specialise in funds for that reason (and of course because it's not that fun!!). Ah no, it could be worse. But realistically, I would not advise someone to try qualify into this area as there are not enough firms doing it and to really be able to work solely in this area - you have to be in one of the top four. As for it being on my cv - it does show that I can work in a tough environment as for what I can bring to the table - nothing in a legal capacity. But then again - how do people who are still in college who may not even have experience in an office environment alone get ap'ships?! Baffles me!! I guess if they're bright enough to be getting the 1:1's i'm sure working in an office isn't exactly going to throw them I guess!! Still !! I've done everything and more that I was told to do - and i'm still coming up with blanks!!

As for working in the funds area solely - not for me! Once the trauma of the fe1's is done - it's hard to throw them away. If I was, I'd go down a completely different route - such as ..... working in a museum!

partyguinness

Why not consider London for funds?

My friends worked in funds with 2 different Big 5 firms and then moved to London and now works with the biggest firm there.

His attitude is that Ireland is a back water in terms of funds and just passing stuff between New York/London and thats where the real action is if you want to develop with funds.

Irishlawgirl

partyguinness wrote: »

Why not consider London for funds?

My friends worked in funds with 2 different Big 5 firms and then moved to London and now works with the biggest firm there.

His attitude is that Ireland is a back water in terms of funds and just passing stuff between New York/London and thats where the real action is if you want to develop with funds.

You're friend is right. It's pretty much the big 4/5 firms here that do funds - after that no other firm in Ireland really hold much weight in this area. London would definitely be the place to excel in this.

Definitely not for me - and even if it was - none of the big firms want to hire me as an apprentice! I don't think it's a great area to work in to be honest - it's very specialised and select and would be virtually impossible to move around in.

partyguinness

Irishlawgirl wrote: »

You're friend is right. It's pretty much the big 4/5 firms here that do funds - after that no other firm in Ireland really hold much weight in this area. London would definitely be the place to excel in this.

Definitely not for me - and even if it was - none of the big firms want to hire me as an apprentice! I don't think it's a great area to work in to be honest - it's very specialised and select and would be virtually impossible to move around in.

Well thats it..you if are from "down the country" and ultimately want to move back home forgot about it if you have spent your time in funds.

I know solicitor (1 yr qualified) from Mayo who just got married and wants to move back. He is in funds with a "Big 5" firm. He is snookered. He cant even do a bog standard conveyance or probate (his own admission) which is what he would be doing in Mayo. Admittedly it wouldnt take that long to learn it.

Plus I know of smaller firms that have had bad experiences with recruits from Big 5 firms..they are too pigeon holed and in fact they are so used to having a Partner looking over their shoulder they struggle to take complete responsibity for a file with nobody holding their hand. They have a different mentality.

I know that some small firms wont even interview solicitors from big firms even if they have been in conveyancing/private client.

Irishlawgirl

partyguinness wrote: »

I know that some small firms wont even interview solicitors from big firms even if they have been in conveyancing/private client.

I guess it's horses for courses in one sense - why employ someone who has no experience in general practice. But then again - for the purposes of being hired by a top firm - these people can generally be assumed to be very bright and I think that most small firms (perhaps not all as you note above) would be willing to consider them.

However from my perspective - working as a paralegal - I don't think i've pigeoned holed myself (I hope!!) into funds - I just wanted a bit of a serious job while I hunted for an ap'ship - I just hope firms see it as ambitious. They may think I really wanted a corporate firm and not bother with me - but it was either succumb to this thought and work a different / not as legal job or go for the paralegal position.

Cliche as it sounds - I'm sure the firm I end up in (touch wood!!) will want me because i've been breaking my back to get experience (any decent kind!!) and at last (!!) i'll have met my "fit". And I do honestly believe there is a "fit" - without a doubt.

So on on a positive note (for once for me on this site!!) - if a firm turned you down (pfo'd you basically) - you wouldn't have liked it there anyway.

TheDemiurge

Irishlawgirl wrote: »

Cliche as it sounds - I'm sure the firm I end up in (touch wood!!) will want me because i've been breaking my back to get experience (any decent kind!!) and at last (!!) i'll have met my "fit". And I do honestly believe there is a "fit" - without a doubt.

So on on a positive note (for once for me on this site!!) - if a firm turned you down (pfo'd you basically) - you wouldn't have liked it there anyway.

You'll regret saying that...anyone care to help me shovel a couple hundred conveyancing files in a freezing cold storage facility in Ballymount over the weekend, dodging dead rats and spiders, wearing your best 1970s boons farm t-shirt to cope with the dust and the sweat...Apprentice Wanted. Oh, the glamour!!

Irishlawgirl

TheDemiurge wrote: »

You'll regret saying that...anyone care to help me shovel a couple hundred conveyancing files in a freezing cold storage facility in Ballymount over the weekend, dodging dead rats and spiders, wearing your best 1970s boons farm t-shirt to cope with the dust and the sweat...Apprentice Wanted. Oh, the glamour!!

I had one positive thing about the whole PFO thing...ONE!! ha!! Back to reality I guess :eek:- there is NO REASON ON EARTH why everyone who has worked hard for years are getting pfo's and not even been called for interviews..

NONE:mad:

TheDemiurge

Irishlawgirl wrote: »

I had one positive thing about the whole PFO thing...ONE!! ha!! Back to reality I guess :eek:- there is NO REASON ON EARTH why everyone who has worked hard for years are getting pfo's and not even been called for interviews..

NONE:mad:

Unfortunately there is. I'll PM you rather than bore everyone here again to tears.

newby09

I got 2 interviews with top 5 firms but not a look in with 2nd tier firms that I applied to which seems strange? I know someone who got an interview with a 2nd tier firm but not any others so i think its down to who sees your application and what you have to offer.

The main thing I noticed about the candidates was that every person i asked 'what college they were' in (because I didn't recognise them from my own) said; "Well, im actually finished my postgrad in X and I did my degree in X, Y or Z. I'm currently sitting my FE1's". Its definitely tough competition this year.

I read a comment that a person with an arts degree, barely a 2.2 got a TC with Cox.......rubbish. Unless they were son/daughter of the Managing Partner. If they had no connections in the firm every other have decent law graduate who scraped through their degree would be doing interviews at this time of year which isnt the case.

June2008

Irishlawgirl wrote: »

Funds is good area to be in at the moment however really only the big four deal with them and the remainder of the top ten firms would have a small amount of work in them. Wouldn't specialise in funds for that reason (and of course because it's not that fun!!). Ah no, it could be worse. But realistically, I would not advise someone to try qualify into this area as there are not enough firms doing it and to really be able to work solely in this area - you have to be in one of the top four. As for it being on my cv - it does show that I can work in a tough environment as for what I can bring to the table - nothing in a legal capacity. But then again - how do people who are still in college who may not even have experience in an office environment alone get ap'ships?! Baffles me!! I guess if they're bright enough to be getting the 1:1's i'm sure working in an office isn't exactly going to throw them I guess!! Still !! I've done everything and more that I was told to do - and i'm still coming up with blanks!!

As for working in the funds area solely - not for me! Once the trauma of the fe1's is done - it's hard to throw them away. If I was, I'd go down a completely different route - such as ..... working in a museum!

No offence but judging by this and your previous posts you seem to have something against people who are recruited from college!these are not necessarily the people who get the top marks but have something else that comes through maybe instead of implying that you are a better candidate (which in reality you may not be) you should talk to these final students and try learn something as they may have something you are missing. I don't mean to cause offence but every post ive read from you has been about how baffled you feel that people still in college are getting apprenticeships over you.

guerito

When I was in college (graduated 2004), things were so competitive that unless you had a first, you needed experience in a firm or a postgrad to even stand a chance with the top firms. Not having a first, I've had to get the experience (can't afford a masters). So I've spent months working for buttons but I still don't have a training contract.

I don't have anything against trainees who get recruited straight from college, but it is a kick in the bo****ks to see that what I "knew" doesn't seem to hold true. I'm not bitter (yet!), but I can understand Irishlawgirl's frustration.

The alternative is that I'm simply not a good enough candidate, and when I start to believe that, it's time for me to chuck the whole thing in.

Irishlawgirl

June2008 wrote: »

No offence but judging by this and your previous posts you seem to have something against people who are recruited from college!these are not necessarily the people who get the top marks but have something else that comes through maybe instead of implying that you are a better candidate (which in reality you may not be) you should talk to these final students and try learn something as they may have something you are missing. I don't mean to cause offence but every post ive read from you has been about how baffled you feel that people still in college are getting apprenticeships over you.

No offence taken and i've nothing against the people who are recruited from college - reaslistically i'd have loved to have been one but I wasn't focused back then. Only graduated 4 years ago and back then when I started college at 17 I wasn't aiming for a 1:1 or to get into a top law firm - didn't even understand the concept to be honest. So I do appreciate that people who go into colleges at the ages of 17/18 and who are focused on the top firms should, from a practical point, be considered very eligible candidates. However my frustration comes from the fact that because I chose to pursue a corporate traineeship AFTER college (college results aren't bad - not wonderful either!) and when I say pursue - I mean attack things that I knew would be difficult but would give my cv an edge - I am not considered eligible. Of course i'm not ruling out that I may be dreadful in interviews (very possible!) but i'm not even getting called for them! I did think that being a paralegal in a top four firm would open doors (and as well as this job i've worked on getting other things under my belt e.g. diplomas, a lot of charity work, and i'm currently working on qualifiying under another discipline) - fact of the matter is: I didn't get called for an interview with any of the top firms this year.

As much as I wish I was one of those students recruited from college and that i'd had gone knowing where I wanted to be in 6 years time - I've gone down the long-winded route. However for everyone else out there who can't rely on their college results alone and have been gaining experience like myself - I would have to say - from all the experience I've gained - I've learned that I'd hate a small firm doing criminal / civil, working in big firms is not just about the legal environment but how to hold your own when working in teams and at the same time not to step on others toes, I've learned that unless I was able to put my social life on hold at a moment's notice, work long hours under a lot of pressure and a dozen other things that would never have occured to me when I was 17 without experience - I think I would make a good candidate as I would know exactly what I was getting myself into - and that I enjoyed it - and more importantly that I was capable of doing it. (I should print this off and read it in an interview - if I ever get called!)

Irishlawgirl

TheDemiurge wrote: »

Unfortunately there is. I'll PM you rather than bore everyone here again to tears.

Didn't get any PM and curious to know what the reason is?!

Johnny Utah

Paul Anthony McDermott is discussing the issue of apprentices/newly qualified solicitors on the Pat Kenny show right now!

Jo King

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Paul Anthony McDermott is discussing the issue of apprentices/newly qualified solicitors on the Pat Kenny show right now!

I never heard such rubbish in my life. He would be better off sticking to writing text books.

Tom Young

I missed it - what he say?

partyguinness

They should at least have had solicitor talking about apprenticships..not a barrister...:(..unfortunately missed the interview.

johnfás

Would have been interesting to hear that - did anyone hear what he had to say?

I think RTE make them available on their website a few hours after the end of the programme.

I have one 'Big 5' interview but not holding out a huge amount of hope of getting in. I have heard alot of the places up for grabs are offered to people who have interned with them even before the normal round of interviews take place. Going to start throwing my CV left right and centre next week but not holding out a huge amount of hope there either.

McCrack

partyguinness wrote: »

They should at least have had solicitor talking about apprenticships..not a barrister...:(..unfortunately missed the interview.

Pat Kenny and PA McDermott? Very irritating to listen to them two.

partyguinness

Its hardly surprising people are having difficulty getting Training Contracts...there is an over supply of graduates..sure every second unemployed barrister is starting up a private "Law School" for FE 1 grinds...not to mention the likes of Griffith etc..plus all the universities...opening up Blackhall to non law graduates was a big mistake..and there is plenty of anecdotal among practitioners to suggest that this has resulted in a drop in the educational standards and quality of newly qualified solicitors...and the blame for this lies squarely at the feet of the Law Society.

There simply too many potential apprentices going for to few places..

johnfás

partyguinness wrote: »

Its hardly surprising people are having difficulty getting Training Contracts...there is an over supply of graduates..sure every second unemployed barrister is starting up a private "Law School" for FE 1 grinds...not to mention the likes of Griffith etc..plus all the universities...opening up Blackhall to non law graduates was a big mistake..and there is plenty of anecdotal among practitioners to suggest that this has resulted in a drop in the educational standards and quality of newly qualified solicitors...and the blame for this lies squarely at the feet of the Law Society.

There simply too many potential apprentices going for to few places..

Have to disagree with you on the non law graduates issue. Blackhall has always been open to non law graduates, it simply used to be the case that they had to sit the FE-1s whereas law graduates did not. There are many leading figures in the Irish legal world whose undergraduate degree is not law. At a reception at one of the firms I applied to I was speaking to the head of one of their departments who had a general arts degree as their primary degree. Equally one only need look to the Supreme Court and Justices such as Adrian Hardiman who studied History at university.

My degree is not in law and I see no reason why that should block me from a career as a solicitor. In fact I did quite a bit better in the FE-1s which I have sat so far in comparison to several of my friends who did study law at university.

I do agree with you that the difficulty in getting a contract is unsurprising given the number of people looking for jobs. However, the correct way to improve standards is to make examinations more difficult and curricula more extensive - not by blocking people from pursuing a career in a given profession.

Jo King

That interview was about the position of newly qualifieds not being kept on. Mc Dermott claimed that partners were firing NQs in order to preserve their own salaries. He also seemed to claim that there was plenty of work for the NQs. It further seems that he thinks law is a vocation and senior partners have a moral obligation to keep on employees.

Johnny Utah

Tom Young wrote: »

I missed it - what he say?

He was highlighting the difficulties facing newly qualified solicitors. It should be on the RTE website in a few hours.

partyguinness wrote: »

Its hardly surprising people are having difficulty getting Training Contracts...there is an over supply of graduates..sure every second unemployed barrister is starting up a private "Law School" for FE 1 grinds...not to mention the likes of Griffith etc..plus all the universities...opening up Blackhall to non law graduates was a big mistake..and there is plenty of anecdotal among practitioners to suggest that this has resulted in a drop in the educational standards and quality of newly qualified solicitors...and the blame for this lies squarely at the feet of the Law Society.

There simply too many potential apprentices going for to few places..

I agree, there's so much oversupply of law graduates/trainees/newly qualifieds that it's farcical at this stage.

johnfás wrote: »

I do agree with you that the difficulty in getting a contract is unsurprising given the number of people looking for jobs. However, the correct way to improve standards is to make examinations more difficult and curricula more extensive - not by blocking people from pursuing a career in a given profession.

+1, I argued that before in an earlier thread.