How many PFOs have you got from solicitors firms?

partyguinness

Well there was a lot of competition because alot more solicitors qualified, Blackahll opened up etc etc. Every second Arts graduate was going into Blackhall with the bare min 8 exams studied for and getting crap apprenticeships...poor regulation and training. I saw it myself personally and I have alluded to it in previous threads.

Bt that was all down to pressure from the Competition Authority and the PD/Mary Harney mantra of "open free market blah blah"/"survival of the fittest". They seem to think that what works in, say, the taxi industry (deregulation) or getting rid of the grocery order can be applied everywhere including the legal profession.

There is now a massive over supply. But I guess a level will be found.

PIAB was/is a joke. Set up at the behest of the insurance industry and the CEO formerly worked for a large insurance company. They were laughing. No great reduction on insurance premiums and claims through the courts are going back up again. BUt thats a different days argument.

Aprilsunshine

Things are not as bad as everyone thinks - I know plenty of people who have been offered big 5 firms this year. They are all recruiting, just to a more limited extent than before. Salaries haven't even gone down! They are offering slightly more now than last year when I got my job.

sid4lev

Aprilsunshine wrote: »

Things are not as bad as everyone thinks - I know plenty of people who have been offered big 5 firms this year. They are all recruiting, just to a more limited extent than before. salaries haven't even gone down! They are offering slightly more now than last year when I got my job.

ah its pretty bad though. Apparently 80% of NQs from blackhall place have been let go of by the firms in which they apprenticed.
Goodbody's interviewed 75 (taking on somewhere between 5-10, + whoever they offered training contract to, from their intern program) Arthur Cox took on 25ish. Dont know about mops, mccanns or wfry cuz as far as i know they didnt even interview anyone in my faculty. Dillon eustace are taking on 6, maples and calder-9. who's left? (btw some of the above figures are based on hearsay so may not be fully accurate)

r14

I agree with Aprilsunshine. The firms are still recruiting. The big 5 get about 2000 applications each year and looking at those numbers, a reduction of 5-10 in the number of trainees recruited is not that much.

I think the major difference is that they are recruiting more from summer intern programmes and directly from college as opposed to taking people who already have their fe1s. Certainly from my own friends anyone I know got a job during final year in college and I only know one person on a Masters course who actually got an offer this time round.

I think to give yourself the best chance you have to start applying early and have some pretty impressive college results to back you up. Preferrably try to get an intern slot and impress them while you're in there. Not saying academics alone is the best way to recruit but I think it's how it's working now with the big 5.

That said I certainly accept that smaller firms outside of Dublin certainly don't work on this basis.

Johnny Utah

TheDemiurge wrote: »

Although it's easy to view the current problem as local, there is a sharp correction going on within the legal profession everywhere. A good (if downbeat) American website is http://www.endofesq.com/.

Required reading for deluded mammies and daddies everywhere.

:D

Alternate Careers:
SO YOU WANT TO BE A FOOD CART VENDOR :pac::pac:

(Actually, the way things are going, this mightn't be a bad idea!)

partyguinness wrote: »

Imagine I secured my apprenticeship in Feb 2002....only 5 people applied and I was the only one with the FE1s fully completed...and it was advertised in the Irish Times..:eek: for 5 days running..the old days eh?

I find that hard to believe. I thought it was always difficult to get a training contract, even in 2002.

johnfás

There is an awful lot of anecdotes here, none of which can show trends so people who look for absolute trends in such anecdotes will be sorely disappointed. I can offer the alternative point of view that I completed neither a summer intern programme, nor am I in final year in College, nor do I have an undergraduate law degree but yet I got offered a job in one of the big 5 firms in the latest rounds of interview. Things are certainly tough at the moment for the legal profession, as they are for most other professions. Accountancy firms are having huge lay offs, something like 40 per cent of architects are facing imminent redundancy and the legal profession is not immune. However, there will always be a need for a level of recruitment. Things have certainly got very competitive but with hard work and an awful lot of luck, alot of people will still secure traineeships.

sid4lev

Congrats on the job man!

galwaygirl24

Aprilsunshine wrote: »

Things are not as bad as everyone thinks - I know plenty of people who have been offered big 5 firms this year. They are all recruiting, just to a more limited extent than before. Salaries haven't even gone down! They are offering slightly more now than last year when I got my job.

I agree with Aprilsunshines opinion that things are not as bad as everyone thinks. Again, I know a lot of people, myself included, who have been recruited this year. I was at a reception for one of the Big 5 firms recently at which all their new recruits were introduced to the firm and there were between 20 - 25 of us, out of over 700 applications. Fair enough some had secured places through internship programs but the majority had still obtained a place through the traditional application forms.

When you think about it logically, new recruits who are starting in April 2010 for example will not be fully qualified until 2013. Factor in another 1 - 2 years before those new recruits really become involved and assimilated into the firm and you're looking at 2014 / 2015. That is a long way into the future. Who knows what state the economy will be in by then. I think that if the Big 5 firms are to remain competitive they have to recruit the best talent now, recession or not, so that they are not found wanting in 4-5 years time. The majority of the firms do seem to be focused on the long term development of the firm itself.

Of course perhaps in 3 years time the economy will still not be flourishing and maybe I'll come out of Blackhall to no job but I'm willing to take that chance!

Carmeii

Ive got a PFO from every solicitor imaginable. ive 8 FE1's and will miss out on b/hall this year by the looks of it. Just dont know what to do now. are there many ppl in this position too? what does it take to even get interviwed by a solicitor?

Irishlawgirl

Carmeii wrote: »

Ive got a PFO from every solicitor imaginable. ive 8 FE1's and will miss out on b/hall this year by the looks of it. Just dont know what to do now. are there many ppl in this position too? what does it take to even get interviwed by a solicitor?

I'm in the same boat and I know a good few others who are. I've all my fe1's since 2006, experience and all sorts of other lovelies - haven't even sent out Cv's.. just not in the mood!!! (sounds dreadful but it's my third year looking). Have you applied to firms other than the top 20 and have you applied outside Dublin?

Carmeii

Yeah ive applied to every tiny one man show firms too in the most rural of places. ive tried every angle! im finding it hard too to keep sending out cv's cos its getting me nowhere!
I dont know if its ever goin to happen, but dont know what else to do. im getting sick of day time tv!:eek:

TheDemiurge

I really envy all of you who are not getting apprenticeships. You still have an opportunity to do something with your life that's positive, not weighed down by people constantly pulling out of you and getting into calamitous debt which so many lawyers do.

Being a lawyer is like joining a band of militants; there's no easy way out of it. Once you're suckered in, your a sitting duck for so many vested interests to take pot shots at you. I suppose I'm talking here about those of us who are self-employed. You can't just "walk away"; you have an endless stream of tidying and chasing up on files to do and undertakings to comply with. Also, you have to have "run off cover" in place for six years after you leave; for me, that would be a sum of 6,375 Euro per year for the first two years at least, and God knows what after that. And legal practices are not a marketable commodity.

In Britain, the Law Society are being really f**king evil towards small practices; firms that couldn't afford the massive insurance hike are being intervened by the Society; the tidying up work is being farmed out to another firm of the Society's choice; the bill is presented to the intervened firm, and a petition for bankruptcy of the intervened solicitor is made. As he is usually a sole trader, that means he loses his house.

The complaints system is one of double jeopardy; a client can complain, entirely cost free, all the way to the Supreme Court, and can go two routes simultaneously, to the Law Society, and also the Disciplinary Tribunal. No one realises the extent to which solicitors are exposed and unrepresented.

I know why I did law, and I'll admit it: I saw it as a secure profession that was essentially a "buffer" and a tool to be used in a hostile world where the weak go to the wall. Now that I'm operating within it, I see that I and many others like me are actually the one standing at the edge of the plank. You have to experience it first hand. IMHO the obsessive compulsive desire for an apprenticeship is unhealthy, and can lead to terrible regrets later on. I remember thinking the world would end if I didn't get an apprenticeship, now I cringe when I think what a stupid t**t I was. From my group of friends in Blackhall, and I'm counting around ten people here, all of them have left law except for me, and that day is coming very fast.

It takes a while for the reality to dawn, but I'm going to positively move forward from now on, and make an effort not to be so bitter, and rebuild an alternative career any way I can. I'm not spending the rest of my career in such a patently vulnerable and unprofitable position.

Rant over!

Irishlawgirl

TheDemiurge wrote: »

I really envy all of you who are not getting apprenticeships. You still have an opportunity to do something with your life that's positive, not weighed down by people constantly pulling out of you and getting into calamitous debt which so many lawyers do.

Being a lawyer is like joining a band of militants; there's no easy way out of it. Once you're suckered in, your a sitting duck for so many vested interests to take pot shots at you.

I suppose I'm talking here about those of us who are self-employed. You can't just "walk away"; you have an endless stream of tidying and chasing up on files to do and undertakings to comply with. Also, you have to have "run off cover" in place for six years after you leave; for me, that would be a sum of 6,375 Euro per year for the first two years at least, and God knows what after that. And legal practices are not a marketable commodity for sale at the moment.

Employers also have a strange view of lawyers wanting to leave. I got a PFO from a company this week, a job I really wanted, highly specialised in Ireland and I had that particular specialism plus the exact experience within it that they desired. I was told that they thought I was "too senior" for the position.

From reading all the posts on here, it brings back memories of when I was running around town like a headless chicken with CVs under the arm, cursing all the b*****s that wouldn't give a break. I hate to see all the self-examinations and nit-picking that people are doing to themselves on here, wondering why they haven't been selected.

I know why I did law, and I'll admit it: I saw it as a secure profession that was essentially a "buffer" and a tool to be used in a hostile world where the weak go to the wall. Now that I'm operating within it, I see that I and many others like me are actually the one standing at the edge of the plank. You have to experience it first hand. IMHO the obsessive compulsive desire for an apprenticeship is unhealthy, and can lead to terrible regrets later on.

This whole post doesn't show up on the screen - just read it all when I wanted to quote yours - have to say despite the pessimism - it's probably the most uplifting post to date. And you do make sense with regard to your sentiments about the obsessive compulsive desire. This depression/recession has actually move the desire as really an ap'ship in this climate is not really a feasible option and therefore it has actually had the effect of removing that desire / constant worry and want. Bit of a relief to be honest - at least I can stop talking about it all the time - if I was withering myself - i'm sure my friends are completely fed up!!

partyguinness

Johnny Utah wrote: »

:D

Alternate Careers:
SO YOU WANT TO BE A FOOD CART VENDOR :pac::pac:

(Actually, the way things are going, this mightn't be a bad idea!)





I find that hard to believe. I thought it was always difficult to get a training contract, even in 2002.

What? Are you saying I am making it up? You better believe it. Now we were taking about a small practice in a market town.

TheDemiurge

Irishlawgirl wrote: »

This whole post doesn't show up on the screen - just read it all when I wanted to quote yours - have to say despite the pessimism - it's probably the most uplifting post to date. And you do make sense with regard to your sentiments about the obsessive compulsive desire. This depression/recession has actually move the desire as really an ap'ship in this climate is not really a feasible option and therefore it has actually had the effect of removing that desire / constant worry and want. Bit of a relief to be honest - at least I can stop talking about it all the time - if I was withering myself - i'm sure my friends are completely fed up!!

Thanks.

My intention isn't in any way to put people off doing law for the purposes of keeping the numbers down. The problem isn't anything to do with the numbers. I'm afraid to admit it this (and that precisely is the problem with so many solicitors) but the profession is so vulnerable purely because of the manner in which it is run. Most solicitors are just muddling through each day and hoping for the best. It is a very dangerous business to be in. I couldn't have known that without actually doing it so I don't expect anyone else to understand either, unless they are one of the services that work alongside the legal profession. I can't help feeling that the whole thing is a scam on the middle classes to keep the educational system churning and to stifle creativity amongst high achievers.

If you're not getting an apprenticeship, it's an opportunity to examine why you really want it, as opposed to constant virulent unwarranted criticism of one's self, which is doing you no good at all. Don't subliminally genuflect to forces and institutions that will prove unworthy of your respect later on.

sid4lev

Well said.

Johnny Utah

partyguinness wrote: »

What? Are you saying I am making it up? You better believe it. Now we were taking about a small practice in a market town.

Sorry, I phrased my last post badly. No, I wasn't questioning you or doubting your story. It's just amazing the way things have changed over the space of a few years- it's very, very difficult to get an apprenticeship at present.

sid4lev wrote: »

Well said.

+1

Irishlawgirl

But what's the plan now??? Sit at my desk for another year.. hoping?!?!? Admittedly i'm seeing friends i'd started off with just newly qualified and being let go so I know it's not easy for anyone but I really thought 2009 was the last straw for me and now... it's looking at 2010. What will employers think?? I've had my FE1's since Xmas 2006 so I really could've gone in for 2007... which I didn't... can say i'd no experience.. but 2008... and 2009.. they'll think all sorts I think!

I haven't really started sending out cv's as I think the market is just up in the air. Perhaps by June or a bit earlier there may be some hope ....i'm procrastinating!!

Question is: what now?? No app'ship, not going to go to the UK (i've fe1's done so I just couldn't do it to myself)... just throwing this question out there!

dazza21ie

Irishlawgirl wrote: »

But what's the plan now??? Sit at my desk for another year.. hoping?!?!? Admittedly i'm seeing friends i'd started off with just newly qualified and being let go so I know it's not easy for anyone but I really thought 2009 was the last straw for me and now... it's looking at 2010. What will employers think?? I've had my FE1's since Xmas 2006 so I really could've gone in for 2007... which I didn't... can say i'd no experience.. but 2008... and 2009.. they'll think all sorts I think!

I haven't really started sending out cv's as I think the market is just up in the air. Perhaps by June or a bit earlier there may be some hope ....i'm procrastinating!!

Question is: what now?? No app'ship, not going to go to the UK (i've fe1's done so I just couldn't do it to myself)... just throwing this question out there!

My advice for you would be to just sit tight. If you have a job of any kind in the current environment at least you have money paying the bills. I wouldn't be so concerned about future employers either. When i was in Blackhall there were a number of "mature" people there e.g. in 40's or above that decided to qualify later on in life for whatever reason.
There will be very few training contracts going around this year. Even if a person was promised one today there is no guarantee that contract would still be available come september. Things are changing very quickly for offices at present. However in one or two years time when the recruitment channels reopen everyone will be aware of the mass cull and lack of recruitment at present and it is unlikely to be held against anyone I would think.

Johnny Utah

Interesting article from today's Irish Independent:

IrishIndependent wrote:

Legal firm offers €20,000 for staff to take a break





ONE of Ireland's blue chip legal firms is offering staff up to €20,000 to take career breaks as the downturn ravages the legal services sector.

Following a trend initiated by several banks, A&L Goodbody -- one of Ireland's "top five" commercial law firms -- recently offered staff with at least two years experience €8,000 for a one-year career break or €20,000 to stay away for a two-year period.

The offer by A&L is the first sign that even the previously untouchable "magic circle" of Irish law firms is being affected by the recession.

The move by A&L, which did not comment on the career break package when contacted by the Irish Independent, comes as one of Dublin's boutique law firms, Lennon Heather, has severed links with five of its equity partners.

Lennon Heather, which specialised in property transactions and commercial litigation -- and expanded rapidly during the prolonged property boom -- has confirmed that it has bought out five of its partners.

The firm denied reports of a walkout by the five partners.

Dougie Heather, managing partner of Lennon Heather, said: "The changed environment is inevitably leading to consolidation in what is generally a tighter market.

"However we are particularly well positioned to serve the increased demand for complex legal services that is emerging."

To date, Ireland's leading business law firms have avoided large-scale redundancies, unlike their British counterparts who have culled staff including equity and salaried partners as well as associates and trainees.

Within weeks, the true impact of the downturn on the solicitor's profession is expected to become clear. The deadline for practising certificate renewals was last Friday. It is expected up to 10pc of solicitors will not renew their certificates.

Some 749 solicitors signed on the live register last December.:eek:

- Dearbhail McDonald Legal Editor

Link:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/legal-firm-offers-836420000-for-staff-to-take-a-break-1623745.html

sid4lev

Thanks for that. I dont feel so bad now, that I messed up my interview with A&L with Ally McBeal jokes!

Johnny Utah

sid4lev wrote: »

Thanks for that. I dont feel so bad now, that I messed up my interview with A&L with Ally McBeal jokes!

At least you got an interview!

dazza21ie

A very interesting offer from A & L. I will suggest it to my boss see what the response is!!

A variation of this could be a solution to some of the professions problems. Very few firms can afford to offer a scheme like this but if it was a scheme that was funded by the Law Society then it could work. There are alot of people within the profession that would love to leave and try something else or take retirement. The Law Society could co-fund a scheme which would effectively offer voluntary redundancy to want-away solicitors and free up space in the market for those who wish to remain. I admit the idea is flawed but it nearly is a time for mad ideas!

Irishlawgirl

sid4lev wrote: »

Thanks for that. I dont feel so bad now, that I messed up my interview with A&L with Ally McBeal jokes!

he he he!! Which jokes?! I shouldn't laugh!! I think i've said things interviews that I didn't mean to be funny but they laughed!! Was told by one top 20 firm that I was a bit too confident (because I couldn't nail the "what are your weaknesses" question) and then have been told i'm too "top four'd" - I worked in a biggie - ahh!! The reason I wanted to work here WAS to come across as professional - clearly I came across as an ass without realising it!! Maybe next time I WILL tell jokes!! (hint of hope there without realising it - actually said "next time" !! Usually it's "if" !!)

Johnny Utah

dazza21ie wrote: »

A very interesting offer from A & L. I will suggest it to my boss see what the response is!!

A variation of this could be a solution to some of the professions problems. Very few firms can afford to offer a scheme like this but if it was a scheme that was funded by the Law Society then it could work. There are alot of people within the profession that would love to leave and try something else or take retirement. The Law Society could co-fund a scheme which would effectively offer voluntary redundancy to want-away solicitors and free up space in the market for those who wish to remain. I admit the idea is flawed but it nearly is a time for mad ideas!

Not a chance- the Law Society has never showed any initiative and they're not going to change now. One of their main functions is to represent the solicitors' profession; it is quite clear that they are failing abysmally in that regard.

It's a good suggestion though, and something like this is probably what is needed right now. Don't expect the Law Society to help though!

Johnny Utah

Irishlawgirl wrote: »

But what's the plan now??? Sit at my desk for another year.. hoping?!?!? Admittedly i'm seeing friends i'd started off with just newly qualified and being let go so I know it's not easy for anyone but I really thought 2009 was the last straw for me and now... it's looking at 2010. What will employers think?? I've had my FE1's since Xmas 2006 so I really could've gone in for 2007... which I didn't... can say i'd no experience.. but 2008... and 2009.. they'll think all sorts I think!

I haven't really started sending out cv's as I think the market is just up in the air. Perhaps by June or a bit earlier there may be some hope ....i'm procrastinating!!

Question is: what now?? No app'ship, not going to go to the UK (i've fe1's done so I just couldn't do it to myself)... just throwing this question out there!

Hi Irishlawgirl,

I'm in a similar situation to yourself. I've decided that this is my last year looking for the apprenticeship. There's no point waiting around for another year, only to be disappointed yet again. I'm not even that hopeful of securing an apprenticeship this year as the legal profession is currently in a mess. Some people are saying that this recession will pass in about two years, but I just can't see it myself- more like ten to fifteen years the way things are going...:(

Perhaps the best option is to requalify at something else?

r14

Irishlawgirl wrote: »

Was told by one top 20 firm that I was a bit too confident (because I couldn't nail the "what are your weaknesses" question) and then have been told i'm too "top four'd" - I worked in a biggie - ahh!!

Too confident and too top four!!! Makes you wonder what interviewers actully look for or whether it's just a flip of a coin scenario.

Johnny Utah

r14 wrote: »

Too confident and too top four!!! Makes you wonder what interviewers actully look for or whether it's just a flip of a coin scenario.

Contacts and/or luck are the key to securing an apprenticeship imo.


And as for the "too top four'd" comment- LOL. Whoever said that deserved a swift kick in the groin.

TheDemiurge

r14 wrote: »

Too confident and too top four!!! Makes you wonder what interviewers actully look for or whether it's just a flip of a coin scenario.

They've basically admitted that they want someone they can stomp all over. Be thankful you weren't selected.

TheDemiurge

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Perhaps the best option is to requalify at something else?

I've been practising for years and I'm going back to retrain in another discipline in the autumn, unrelated to law.

As I've said on another post it goes far beyond just the recession passing before the damage done to the legal profession is repaired.

Representation and regulation need to be separated; billing needs to be consistent and representative of good, professional work, which would weed out the wasters very quickly; the disciplinary/complaints system needs an overhaul from the blanket inquisition theatrics that it currently is; and solicitors need to be paid by banks for the work they do on each conveyance and the guarantees that they give. Until all of the above is addressed, expect lots more lawyers to walk away from the profession in the coming years.