How many PFOs have you got from solicitors firms?

Irishlawgirl

TheDemiurge wrote: »

They've basically admitted that they want someone they can stomp all over. Be thankful you weren't selected.

ha! But i'd LET ANYONE stomp all over me just for an apprenticeship!!! It's shocking but true!!

I think i'm taking a "year off" from letting this whole a'ship get to me and just trying in 2010 and just swallowing my pride a bit when i'm 28 starting b'hall!

Aprilsunshine

What do you guys mean? When did a firm say they wanted someone they could stomp all over?

Glimmer of hope - I have no contacts and I got a big 5 job!!

I resent that people imply that only those with these elusive contacts get traineeships.

johnfás

Aprilsunshine wrote: »

What do you guys mean? When did a firm say they wanted someone they could stomp all over?

Glimmer of hope - I have no contacts and I got a big 5 job!!

I resent that people imply that only those with these elusive contacts get traineeships.

Agreed. No contacts, undergraduate degree in a discipline other than law and I got a big 5 job in this round of interviews.

It is a bit of a lottery whether you get an interview and obviously recruitment numbers are down. But honestly anyone who gets an interview has an equal chance of getting a job. Once you get to the interview stage, unless you are a close family member of a partner, everyone is pretty much on an equal footing and it is through the interview that you must impress if you are going to get a job.

Johnny Utah

Aprilsunshine wrote: »

What do you guys mean? When did a firm say they wanted someone they could stomp all over?

Glimmer of hope - I have no contacts and I got a big 5 job!!

I resent that people imply that only those with these elusive contacts get traineeships.

I never said that only those with contacts would secure an apprenticeship.

I've said it here before that contacts make a big difference in terms of getting an interview and ultimately a TC, and I stand over that statement because I've seen it first hand with people that I went to college with who benefitted from (non-family) contacts.

Well done to both above who got the TC btw.

legallad

I have to disagree with parts of this argument that contacts help secure a training contract. I myself got an offer this year with zero contacts and an undergraduate degree, and so too did 3 of my friends who also have no contacts. No one else in my year got an offer and some of them have contacts in top 5 firms but it didnt seem to help. These contacts i am pretty sure would have worked in previous years to get an interview but it seems the situation has altered somewhat this year as the standad has become so high and the firms are in turn only taking on a very very small number so they are not wasting their time with people who have contacts if they do not meet employable criteria.

Also could anyone offer advice on the advantages/disadvantages of summer internships??

r14

I agree with legallad. I have no contacts whatsoever and I got my traineeship while doing my undergrad. Just for those who are starting to lose hope I don't think contacts are much help with bigger commercial firms.

legallad wrote: »

Also could anyone offer advice on the advantages/disadvantages of summer internships??

I did an internship a few years ago and it was from this that I ended up getting the TC. They're hard to get into - the year I did it I saw the list for interviews and there were over 100 interviews scheduled, they told us over 800 had applied.

I didn't really know what I was doing with the application form but really played up how much I wanted to be a solicitor and how I saw the internship as part of a career path to working with them (corny I know:))

Once I was in there I just pestered the people in my department always asking if I could help with anything and coming back for more when I'd finished. While there was a little bit of photocopying and filing work most of it was quite interesting and I got to sit in on some meetings, conference calls etc.

Don't really see any disadvantages to it as you are getting experience (and pay) and if they like you you could get an offer out of it.

sid4lev

I would have to both agree and disagree with some of the posts above. I agree because like some of the above posters i have no connections at all but i managed to secure a TC (in this round of interviews) in a "big 5" too. However, in my humble opinion, if a firm had to chose between two candidates, and all other things being equal, one of them had a strong contact within the firm, I know on which side of the coin I'd place my hard earned and "about to run dry" dosh...but then again, wouldnt that be the case within any profession and any organisation??

daviddob

has anyone heard back from MHC regarding summer internship? they are supposed to get back to people in feb.

firstapache

I personally got a contract with a mid-size firm without any contacts.However, two of the six taken on my intake were related to one of the partners who conducted the interviews.I then moved on to a larger firm who took on 8-15 trainees every year. In one intake there were five trainees who were either related to partners or were the sons/daughters of the firm's largest clients.

Rhonda9000

Agreed. 2 X "big 5" offer with no contacts.

"Contacts" as a secret ingredient to getting hired is one of the most overplayed, tired excuses I think. I suppose it's only natural to be fixated on what / how other people do things but its wasted time.

Johnny Utah

Rhonda9000 wrote: »

Agreed. 2 X "big 5" offer with no contacts.

I thought you were a barrister?

loft72

Like most people on this discussion board I have got PFO's coming at me left right and centre. I have done some interviews for the bigger firms but they all tell me the same crap. They say I'm a good candidate etc but wont hire me.
My problem is knowing what the hell I'm going to do now. I know there are hundreds of us in the same boat but what will we do for the next year until the application process comes around again? I've been applying (unsuccessfully) for traineeships everywhere and I've been appling for any job that involves ofice work but no-one is willing to recruit me. I've thought about doing a Masters but I dont know if it's worth it.

I could rant on and on for ages but I'm just wondering what people will be doing for the next year to gain experience for the next application process?

Irishlawgirl

Got a pfo via email last week - they did apologise for lateness of reply which was fair enough.

as for the above comment - what do with no ap'ship?? Best bet is to get experience however that is going to be an extremely difficult task in this environment and I would imagine getting any job (experience not a priority at times) and keeping afloat is the main thing.

johnfás

Has anybody been sent a letter seeking deferral of a training contract yet? I have not heard of it happening yet but it seems to be the big thing in London at the moment and I have some friends who are prospective trainees with big Dublin Chartered Accountancy firms who have been offered €5,000 to defer entry for 12 months. It seems like a matter of time before this will happen to those of us who are prospective trainees with Solicitors firms.

A perspective from England:

Thanks to the recession, students are no longer calling the shots. What is more, for some it will be the first time they have to deal with rejection.

Meanwhile law firms, which typically hire trainees two years before their start dates, are being forced to consider what to do with trainees who are due to join later this year or in 2010.
The principal method adopted to tackle this problem is to ask future trainees to push back their start dates. The first firms to announce trainee deferrals were Newcastle-based Muckle and Ward Hadaway (TheLawyer.com, September 2008).

But, as our table shows, an ever-growing number of firms are following Muckle’s lead while others, including Birmingham-based Wragge & Co, are reviewing their positions on trainee deferral.

The majority of deferrals reported to date have been voluntary, but Lovells was forced to make them compulsory after not enough students volunteered. US firm Reed Smith has made its trainee deferrals compulsory in return for cash payments.

Midlands-based firm Shoosmiths, meanwhile, has also warned future joiners it may be forced to make the deferrals compulsory. But in a more worrying move, the firm has also asked trainees to withdraw their training contracts. And, as first reported by TheLawyer.com (30 April), it is not offering compensation.

http://l2b.thelawyer.com/training-contract-deferrals-force-generation-y-to-learn-patience/1000315.article

sid4lev

johnfás wrote: »

Has anybody been sent a letter seeking deferral of a training contract yet? I have not heard of it happening yet but it seems to be the big thing in London at the moment and I have some friends who are prospective trainees with big Dublin Chartered Accountancy firms who have been offered €5,000 to defer entry for 12 months. It seems like a matter of time before this will happen to those of us who are prospective trainees with Solicitors firms.

A perspective from England:

http://l2b.thelawyer.com/training-contract-deferrals-force-generation-y-to-learn-patience/1000315.article

I too have been following this trend in the UK in recent months and would imagine that its only a matter of time before it happens here. Like you said its already happening in accountancy firms. What are people's views on this? If one was to get a monetary payment as consideration for deferral, do ye think it would be a good idea to accept and do something useful for that period of time or insist on commencing your training at the intended date, assuming that come qualification (2012/2013) things will have improved so in retrospect deferring would make little difference as to the likelihood of post-qualification employment?

legal eagle 1

Hey guys,
Just curious as to whether anybody has had any luck recently in securing a training contract or even work experience etc. with any legal firm?
Guess i just want to know if everybody is struggling just as much as i am at the minute (may make me feel bit better )

bella.donna

I've secured an internship for the summer with a semi-State that specialises in EU law. I organised it a few months ago when they advertised for interns. They then were looking for a full-time legal adviser; I got an interview but didn't get the job due to my lack of "office experience". When I was told I didn't get the job, I was told that there would be more jobs before the end of the year. So I'm doing the internship to get some work experience and if I get a job out of it, it's a bonus.

I also did an internship earlier this year with a renewable energy company in Spain; I wrote a report for the company on the impact of Community law on the private renewable energy sector.

Maybe people should target semi-State bodies and NGOs as an alternative to solictors? I know they're not ideal but at least you're getting experience in a quasi-legal setting.

_JOE_

bella.donna wrote: »

I've secured an internship for the summer with a semi-State that specialises in EU law. I organised it a few months ago when they advertised for interns. They then were looking for a full-time legal adviser; I got an interview but didn't get the job due to my lack of "office experience". When I was told I didn't get the job, I was told that there would be more jobs before the end of the year. So I'm doing the internship to get some work experience and if I get a job out of it, it's a bonus.

I also did an internship earlier this year with a renewable energy company in Spain; I wrote a report for the company on the impact of Community law on the private renewable energy sector.

Maybe people should target semi-State bodies and NGOs as an alternative to solictors? I know they're not ideal but at least you're getting experience in a quasi-legal setting.

Great idea, and well done...all the best at securing a contract...

legal eagle 1

Thats great idea Belladonna i think i may give that a go.....nothing to lose at this stage. Well done on your success so far

JordyWordy

TheDemiurge wrote: »

I really envy all of you who are not getting apprenticeships. You still have an opportunity to do something with your life that's positive, not weighed down by people constantly pulling out of you and getting into calamitous debt which so many lawyers do.

Being a lawyer is like joining a band of militants; there's no easy way out of it. Once you're suckered in, your a sitting duck for so many vested interests to take pot shots at you. I suppose I'm talking here about those of us who are self-employed. You can't just "walk away"; you have an endless stream of tidying and chasing up on files to do and undertakings to comply with. Also, you have to have "run off cover" in place for six years after you leave; for me, that would be a sum of 6,375 Euro per year for the first two years at least, and God knows what after that. And legal practices are not a marketable commodity.

In Britain, the Law Society are being really f**king evil towards small practices; firms that couldn't afford the massive insurance hike are being intervened by the Society; the tidying up work is being farmed out to another firm of the Society's choice; the bill is presented to the intervened firm, and a petition for bankruptcy of the intervened solicitor is made. As he is usually a sole trader, that means he loses his house.

The complaints system is one of double jeopardy; a client can complain, entirely cost free, all the way to the Supreme Court, and can go two routes simultaneously, to the Law Society, and also the Disciplinary Tribunal. No one realises the extent to which solicitors are exposed and unrepresented.

I know why I did law, and I'll admit it: I saw it as a secure profession that was essentially a "buffer" and a tool to be used in a hostile world where the weak go to the wall. Now that I'm operating within it, I see that I and many others like me are actually the one standing at the edge of the plank. You have to experience it first hand. IMHO the obsessive compulsive desire for an apprenticeship is unhealthy, and can lead to terrible regrets later on. I remember thinking the world would end if I didn't get an apprenticeship, now I cringe when I think what a stupid t**t I was. From my group of friends in Blackhall, and I'm counting around ten people here, all of them have left law except for me, and that day is coming very fast.

It takes a while for the reality to dawn, but I'm going to positively move forward from now on, and make an effort not to be so bitter, and rebuild an alternative career any way I can. I'm not spending the rest of my career in such a patently vulnerable and unprofitable position.

Rant over!

I've had a really ****ty outlook on this whole thing for some time now, so this was good to read.

Very well put, nice to see someone looking at the bigger picture.

brumbram6

this thread has been quiet for some time, but I hope that some of you guys could give me an advice.
First of all was wondering if law career fairs at big universities are any good to be noticed by future employers?

secondly, as far as i know, Irish cover letters are not very personal (not like US personal statements), do you think it is worth to open up a heart and say how much you really want this job especially while applying to smaller law firms?
finally, how to find the list of medium-sized or even small firms in dublin? I am 26 and having 4 fe1s passed, desperately want to find a traineeship for 2011. your thoughts pls??

Arsenal1986

Regarding the personal statement, I defintly wouldnt make them too personal at all for big firms. For smaller ones perhaps.

For Medium sized firms I'd look at Chambers, they have down to the the 25th biggest.

bob_lob_law

Hello all - first time poster myself. I'm applying for a few TCs this season as I'm sure a lot of you are as well. I haven't done the FE1s so I'm applying to the top five but also looking for suggestions for any other mid sized firms that recruit people without the FE1s (so ideally for 2012). As a smaller operation how do Maples act in this regard? Also was wondering re Byrne Wallace?

I applied to AC last year and got to the group stage but didn't get a second interview. I've developed my cv quite a bit since then so i'm going to reapply but was wondering if anyone has successfully reapplied to them? What are peoples thoughts on the whole group recruitment process - do they have an idea of who they want to interview and other people are just making up the numbers? If I didn't get to the second round last year does that mean they didn't like my personality or what? Maybe they were offended with my choice of favourite film?! Any insights would be much appreciated.

I don't have any peers training in Dublin so if anyone would like to PM any other insights into recruitment this year, deferrals, number of trainees being taken on etc. etc. I'd really appreciate it!

Cheers.

Arsenal1986

bob_lob_law wrote: »

Hello all - first time poster myself. I'm applying for a few TCs this season as I'm sure a lot of you are as well. I haven't done the FE1s so I'm applying to the top five but also looking for suggestions for any other mid sized firms that recruit people without the FE1s (so ideally for 2012). As a smaller operation how do Maples act in this regard? Also was wondering re Byrne Wallace?

I applied to AC last year and got to the group stage but didn't get a second interview. I've developed my cv quite a bit since then so i'm going to reapply but was wondering if anyone has successfully reapplied to them? What are peoples thoughts on the whole group recruitment process - do they have an idea of who they want to interview and other people are just making up the numbers? If I didn't get to the second round last year does that mean they didn't like my personality or what? Maybe they were offended with my choice of favourite film?! Any insights would be much appreciated.

I don't have any peers training in Dublin so if anyone would like to PM any other insights into recruitment this year, deferrals, number of trainees being taken on etc. etc. I'd really appreciate it!

Cheers.

The majority of the firms just outside the big 5 would recruit you without the FE-1s done. I'm talking here about Mason Hayes and Curran, Byrne Wallace, Dillon Eustace and Maples and Calders.

Others like Eugene F.Collins I wouldnt be so sure about whther you need Fe-1s but I would think you dont.

Any firms smaller then them its probably a good idea to have them done but may not neccesarily rule you out.

It's actually quiet strange (well from the perspective of someone who only recently did the Fe-1s) but alot of the big firms don't really see the FE-1s as difficult. I remember being at a number of drinks evenings organised by the big firms where partners and HR ppl were advising ppl to just do all 8 in one go as they 'are not that difficult'!

Regarding your group interview with ACs - you are def reading too much into it! It will be absolutly no bar to you getting another interview with them that you have already had one. Friends of mine have been called three consecutive times for interview with them.

It hard to know what way they work it, I'd be inclined to think that naturally from the CVs they'd be leaning toward certain ppl in a group interview before it starts but an excellent performance could convince them to take someone quiet average on paper to individual interview. Remember that if you are getting to interview then the academics and work experience are up to scratch and in that regard you are good enougb to get a job there, they then just want to see who'd be the best fit amongst other things.

The second round interview with ACs is much less daunting, very informal, no challenging qs etc.

ACs is the only firm that uses the group format so if that dosnt suit you, don't despair.

Any other Qs, any specific qs about particular firms feel free to ask or PM me. I interviewed with all the Big 5 bar MOP last year so familiar enough with most of them!

christ on a bike!

A bit of a dillema here
I've just been offered a TC (yahoo!), but it's without pay (boo!)
So, you're talking 3 years (I'm 27) without pay. That means I'd be in my thirties when (if) I start earning money
But I think I'd manage that, I have always been a hard worker, funding my studies etc, and would be able to work part time to literally earn myself a 'crust'

The problem lies with blackhall next year, tuition fees and having to move to Dublin for 6 months, surely you're talking €20k and the banks certainly wont help
In the absence of being fortunate enough of having a rich benefactor I don't see how this is doable

Also this firm needs an answer, I am applying for the big 5 plus the medium size firms and am obviously hoping for the best there but would need to accept this before I would hear anything from them. And if I was fortunate enough to get a TC from one of these firms then I would have to quit but might burn some bridges as they are a decent firm in a place I want to live some day

Anyone else have any similar experiences?

Anyone want to give me money?

Should I just become a fireman?

maidhc

Arsenal1986 wrote: »

I remember being at a number of drinks evenings organised by the big firms where partners and HR ppl were advising ppl to just do all 8 in one go as they 'are not that difficult'!

I suppose considering none of them actually sat the FE1s...

Arsenal1986

Thats probably why alright!

fe1ready

I got 7 pfos.

What's funny to me is that the 2 that i got an interview for both offered me the position.

And now im with a firm.

I say 'funny' because the firm im with is bigger and more successful than some of the pfos i got and there is something to be said for at least giving someone the opportunity to interview. You may not be great on paper but in person you can turn things around.

bob_lob_law

Arsenal1986 wrote: »

The majority of the firms just outside the big 5 would recruit you without the FE-1s done. I'm talking here about Mason Hayes and Curran, Byrne Wallace, Dillon Eustace and Maples and Calders.

Others like Eugene F.Collins I wouldnt be so sure about whther you need Fe-1s but I would think you dont.

Any firms smaller then them its probably a good idea to have them done but may not neccesarily rule you out.

It's actually quiet strange (well from the perspective of someone who only recently did the Fe-1s) but alot of the big firms don't really see the FE-1s as difficult. I remember being at a number of drinks evenings organised by the big firms where partners and HR ppl were advising ppl to just do all 8 in one go as they 'are not that difficult'!

Regarding your group interview with ACs - you are def reading too much into it! It will be absolutly no bar to you getting another interview with them that you have already had one. Friends of mine have been called three consecutive times for interview with them.

It hard to know what way they work it, I'd be inclined to think that naturally from the CVs they'd be leaning toward certain ppl in a group interview before it starts but an excellent performance could convince them to take someone quiet average on paper to individual interview. Remember that if you are getting to interview then the academics and work experience are up to scratch and in that regard you are good enougb to get a job there, they then just want to see who'd be the best fit amongst other things.

The second round interview with ACs is much less daunting, very informal, no challenging qs etc.

ACs is the only firm that uses the group format so if that dosnt suit you, don't despair.

Any other Qs, any specific qs about particular firms feel free to ask or PM me. I interviewed with all the Big 5 bar MOP last year so familiar enough with most of them!

Cheers dude, slowly going through the applications - soul destroying!

Ruby83

christ on a bike! wrote: »

A bit of a dillema here
I've just been offered a TC (yahoo!), but it's without pay (boo!)

Is it not against Law Society regulations to offer a traineeship without pay? I think there is a minimum they have to pay you. You should check the law soc website or maybe someone else could clarify