Government acts after 3 months over dioxins in pork and then after it is found in UK

P. Breathnach

gandalf wrote: »

I'm sorry but reports out there suggest that the Italian, French and Belgian authorities detected higher levels of dioxins last September.

The reports I have heard say that they could not identify the source of the higher levels. If you want heads on a platter, cite sources that support your allegations.

mike65

The mill has been named (its in Carlow) and the dioxins came from an unlicenced oil.

It was suggested this morning that the "cake" feed base material had been dried out with a hot air system, if so a leaky fuel union could be all thats needed to contaminate the airflow.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5jpm_py5K4_xFlIAA_ZBtcCgJH2YA

Mr.Micro

It is breath taking that the authorities here appear to have only acted when contacted by other nations such as the Italians and Belgians. It does not say much for these watchdogs IMO, now trying to cover their backsides. As I posted yesterday, how come the meat inspectors here noticed nothing wrong with the pork?

I happen to know the area in Carlow where the plant that is allegedly to be involved in the production of the contaminated feed exists. I have a very deep concern that all the dioxins emitted in the burning of the oil have contaminated the land, the water, animals and people living in the vicinity for miles around. There was no mention of this dioxin fallout on the news or has it not occurred to the authorities yet? The burning of this oil has gone on for some considerable time. In the past I noted the emissions from a few miles away long before passing the plant, such was the volume of emission.

mike65

The dept has not been near that plant for levels testing in 2008.

Mr.Micro

I suspect that if the dept does test the land for miles around they will be find very high levels of dioxin in the environment. I think that this has escaped the attention of the authorities and indeed it may have travelled farther on the wind and fallen out over Carlow County and others. Its an absolute disgrace. Its not just the contaminated pork but its also the land and environment and possible greater consequences down the line.

beggars_bush

will we see a resignation?

Mr.Micro

beggars_bush wrote: »

will we see a resignation?

I very much doubt it. Why should we be surprised though that the official watchdogs are often not up to the job, remember the cancer screeing and misdiagnosis debacle. Nobody resigned as far as I know.

A Dub in Glasgo

More likely to see one of the contaminated pigs flying

lostexpectation

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The reports I have heard say that they could not identify the source of the higher levels.

i don't know why that's an excuse for anything, still the possibility they found out first.


"
The investigation into the source of Ireland’s largest food scare since BSE began with the routine sampling of a pig carcass on September 19th.

However, it was weeks later, on November 26th, when the routine sample showed up a high level of dioxin-like PCBs. "

what are they saying happened between these two dates

lostexpectation

how long has brendan smith been minister for agri?

trevor sargeant said the feed has been checked but not the plant in 2008 but it would be...:o

The Raven.

Firetrap wrote: »

Interesting too that nobody's come out and said "it's safe to keep eating organic pork".

Good point. I wonder how safe it would be if the ‘organic’ pigs were reared in the vicinity of the recycling plant in question or any other such air-polluting places?

Another curious fact is that ‘none of the thousands of pigs involved in the lockdown of the pig farms have been slaughtered’, according to the Times today. I’m surprised they haven’t died or become seriously ill.

As regards resignations:

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

More likely to see one of the contaminated pigs flying

You never know. Stranger things have happened. Wait until the test results on cattle come out tomorrow.

P. Breathnach

The Raven. wrote: »

Another curious fact is that ‘none of the thousands of pigs involved in the lockdown of the pig farms have been slaughtered’, according to the Times today. I’m surprised they haven’t died or become seriously ill.

Indeed. And what about all those people who have eaten pork products in the past few weeks? The hospitals will shortly be even more crowded, two to a bed (three, if small); undertakers will be seriously overworked; there will be a coffin crisis; the graveyards will be full (no cremations, because the crematoria will be booked up for pig carcases).

Now, if the Dublin incinerator had not been so delayed...

lostexpectation

timeline http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1208/1228571631237.html?via=mr

Phototoxin

Why has it taken 3 months of exposure to all consumers of dioxin ridden pork and pork products beore anything was done and then it does not appear to have been detected here first, this from the BBC....

Quote:
The presence of the dioxin polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) - a substance banned in the Irish Republic since the 1970s - in animal feed and pork samples was confirmed on Saturday afternoon in test results from a UK laboratory.

I would like to know ;

1 why is it around if its supposed to be banned almost 40 years?
2 why so long to find out?
3 why a UK lab... I know ireland is sh*t in terms of science but come on?
4 why is no one accountable?

Oh wait I know the answer -because its ireland and we're special and doing everying cocked and half arsed with no one accountable for anything, anything least of all the government as evidenced by crooked taoiseachs, brown envelopes and so forth.

mike65

Good to see the gubberment has its hand out, an Irish failure to be bailed out with EU money.

Mr.Micro

Apparently the plant was due to be inspected just after the crisis started ( now that's probably a porky), but it is suggested that this plant was off the radar and that neither the EPA or the Dept of agriculture were checking it or had done this year. The regulation is that samples of the feed are supposed to be collected on inspections and tested. If this had been done the dioxin would have been detected, but it looks like the plant was free to operate without hindrance. The EPA is also supposed to check emissions so why was this plant not even checked for those let alone the feed. Have not got a clue thats why. Leave the science and technology to other countries. The Government here needs to get real instead of having the EPA, Food authority, Dept of Agriculture all running around and not a scientist amongst them pretending that they are doing a job. I would add that if and when any inspection occurs at a plant it is probably advertized in advance and not a spot check, allowing any rogue operator to clean up the place and then continue after the inspection IMO.

P. Breathnach

Mr.Micro, you started this discussion with inaccuracies. You are not doing a whole lot better now. Most of your latest post is speculation and adoption of unreasonable positions. In particular, you make accusations of lying about inspections, of negligent protocols.

Yet you are so ill-informed that you seem to think that checking food safety is the business of the EPA, and that the EPA should have detected this problem by checking emissions!

Both the FSAI and the EPA have scientists on their staff and access to further expertise as needed.

The FSAI are the good guys. They discovered the problem and quickly traced it back to its source. Then they told us. And for that you characterise them as incompetent and dishonest.

I think you are being unreasonable.

AtomicHorror

Phototoxin wrote: »

I would like to know ;

1 why is it around if its supposed to be banned almost 40 years?

Isn't it an import ban? If something had said dioxin in it pre-1970 then it would remain but need to be disposed of correctly if and when detected.

Phototoxin wrote: »

2 why so long to find out?

It's not all that clear what was going on in that regard.

Phototoxin wrote: »

3 why a UK lab... I know ireland is sh*t in terms of science but come on?

Probably cost. The lab probably specialises in assaying for dioxin contamination under GLP/GCP protocols. They probably do it in bulk for less.

Phototoxin wrote: »

4 why is no one accountable?

I think we can safely say they will be. The public are now looking for blood.

Villain

Didn't you just love Seargant's reply to the question that the firm hadn't been inspected during 2008 on Q&A last night? He said "it was due to be inspected"

Fratton Fred

Apparantly the stuff that goes into animal feeds can be pretty gruesome, such as old chip fat, the dregs from the fermintation process in a brewery, pretty much anything than is theoretically edible. Because of this, it is very hard to estabish where dioxines could come from. It could even be from someone trying to bulk up the food by adding diesal, which is not unheard of.

There are only a few places in the UK that can test for dioxins and the tests themselves will cost up to £1400, which is probably why they don't get done that often.

mike65

When you do the breakdown of the process of piglet to plate, its madness really. All that energy and muck for the aroma of dead warm meat. And I say that as someone who loves dead warm meat.

Mr.Micro

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Mr.Micro, you started this discussion with inaccuracies. You are not doing a whole lot better now. Most of your latest post is speculation and adoption of unreasonable positions. In particular, you make accusations of lying about inspections, of negligent protocols.

Yet you are so ill-informed that you seem to think that checking food safety is the business of the EPA, and that the EPA should have detected this problem by checking emissions!

Both the FSAI and the EPA have scientists on their staff and access to further expertise as needed.

The FSAI are the good guys. The discovered the problem and quickly traced it back to its source. Then they told us. And for that you characterise them as incompetent and dishonest.

I think you are being unreasonable.

No, I am sorry but I stand by my opinion and analysis. As I write this, it looks like beef too has now been affected. I have a degree in science and I know what is expected when it comes to protocol, or lack of it in this case. I expect the public to be protected and the likes of the EPA, dept of Agriculture etc to do their jobs, which they clearly have not done IMO. As I posted previously, it was other nations that alerted us to the problem. Inadequate and sloppy or none existent procedures thats the problem. What about sheep feed and chicken feed, are they next?

P. Breathnach

The reports seem to point the finger at one feed supplier where two problems might have occured: (1) the inclusion in the feed mix of plastic wrappers on bread that was due for recycling, (2) the use of the wrong type of oil in a drying machine, and the exhaust from that oil contaminating the feedstuff.

If that is true, then the fault seems to have been that of people associated with the feed provider (perhaps careless employees, perhaps management -- but either way, the management should have prevented it).

Yet people seem to be directing their anger at those who discovered the problem rather than those who caused it, a classic case of "shoot the messenger".

P. Breathnach

Mr.Micro wrote: »

No, I am sorry but I stand by my opinion and analysis. As I write this, it looks like beef too has now been affected. I have a degree in science and I know what is expected when it comes to protocol, or lack of it in this case. I expect the public to be protected and the likes of the EPA, dept of Agriculture etc to do their jobs, which they clearly have not done IMO. As I posted previously, it was other nations that alerted us to the problem. Inadequate and sloppy or none existent procedures thats the problem. What about sheep feed and chicken feed, are they next?

Don't let the facts get in the way of an intemperate rant. Did you check the link provided by lostexpectation?

mike65

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Yet people seem to be directing their anger at those who discovered the problem rather than those who caused it, a classic case of "shoot the messenger".

I don't think so, it shows that people crazily expect public health systems to work while a private company can be sued later.

Mr.Micro

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Don't let the facts get in the way of an intemperate rant. Did you check the link provided by lostexpectation?

I cannot comprehend why you whole heartedly appear to defend this debacle and the bodies charged with the policing of such processing plants? Perhaps you work for the EPA or a Government body as you appear to be biased? As for a rant, it is nothing of the sort. I have put the case as the facts come to light and your retorting to such accusations demonstrates that you do not have a reasonable or logical retort. We are not talking about a milk spillage.

Face up to the facts and we can move on to sort this out. As I say, if it took other countries to tell us our pork was wrong, and even Trevor Sergeant last night admitting that the plant was due to be inspected ( take that with a pinch of salt), clearly demonstrates a massive failure on the part of the authorities. Deal with it, it happens, but do not try and defend the indefensible when they fell down on the job and now it is a damage limitating excercise to cover themselves and point the blame at others. The public have a right to be protected and it is bizarre that food leaves our shores, goes on the shelves of our supermarkets and after being sold,consumed for months is it tested after alerts from overseas customers. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to where I got it wrong?

P. Breathnach

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I cannot comprehend why you whole heartedly appear to defend this debacle and the bodies charged with the policing of such processing plants? Perhaps you work for the EPA or a Government body as you appear to be biased? As for a rant, it is nothing of the sort. I have put the case as the facts come to light and your retorting to such accusations demonstrates that you do not have a reasonable or logical retort. We are not talking about a milk spillage.

Face up to the facts and we can move on to sort this out. As I say, if it took other countries to tell us our pork was wrong, and even Trevor Sergeant last night admitting that the plant was due to be inspected ( take that with a pinch of salt), clearly demonstrates a massive failure on the part of the authorities. Deal with it, it happens, but do not try and defend the indefensible when they fell down on the job and now it is a damage limitating excercise to cover themselves and point the blame at others. The public have a right to be protected and it is bizarre that food leaves our shores, goes on the shelves of our supermarkets and after being sold,consumed for months is it tested after alerts from overseas customers. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to where I got it wrong?

I defend the FSAI out of a sense of fair play and a belief that discussion of public affairs should be based on fact. Nothing else. Had I an interest, I would have declared it.

You challenge me to face up to the facts. I do. Your version of the facts seems to change (see thread title for a reminder). I described what you say as an intemperate rant, and I stand by that. In the post where you protest about it, you impugn my honesty. 'Nuff said.

And it looks as if you did not check lostexpectation's link or, if you did, that ignored it because it does not fit your paradigm.

Mr.Micro

You still have not said where I got it wrong in your opinion? I would love to know. I have looked at lostexpectations link. It changes nothing. From a scientific point of view why would one test a product or pork in this case after it had left the factory or processing plant, is on the shelves or consumed?? No logic in that, but that is what happened here it looks like. Reverse logic.

Products are tested or inspected before leaving the plant that is the normal way. Not in this case. It looks like any testing was carried due to an alert from others, perhaps the Belgians who detected high dioxin in gelatin substances from Irish pork early in Sept, I do believe. I do not believe that it was on our own volition. What happened between 19th Sept to 28th November and why was the pork not recalled ( and now the beef as well) as a precaution? Why was the plant not inspected at all this year? You can justify it all you like but its a disgrace. You have not demonstrated one fact to me but just defend this mess and disagree with everything I state.. Please do not bother if you cannot discuss my points/facts.

Villain

So its official then Beef was contaminated with the feed too although it won't be recalled, imo that means we can trace beef but Pork? well we can't really!

P. Breathnach

Mr.Micro wrote: »

You still have not said where I got it wrong in your opinion? I would love to know.

On some points, I have. You don't seem to have noticed.

I did briefly think of trying to address all that you said, but I found it so loose and imprecise that I categorised it as a rant.