The Minister strikes back

Grizzly 45

It finally seems like our local gun grabber...Er ...minister for [in]justice [in] equality and law reform has decided to respond to Tom Mc Gurks article in the Sunday Biz Post today.:rolleyes:

This becomes more of a joke!! now the Minister is saying it is because of the Charlton judgement..And "concern" raised by the Gardai...[Maybe concern rasised by the AGI back in May 2008???]
And that the Irish public would not wish to go down the roads of other countries[unspecified]where handguns are readily available liscensed or unliscensed.:eek:.
Would be nice if maybe they would ask the Irish people and not make more hames of decisions in our names.:(

www.sbpost.ie letters page.
Sorry cant post direct link.

Bananaman

Heard 2nd hand:

LMFM Radio, in Drogheda today:

Dermot Ahern announced that he is banning ALL Pistols, Replica
Firearms and Airsoft toys.......

bunny shooter

:eek: hopefully just the media talking ****e again

Grizzly 45

Hopefully we will be banning him from public office for ever in the next 6 to 12 months!:mad:.
No doubt this is now because of the North Wall shooting!
This man just doesnt get it does he?? By banning toys,real guns ,replicas,bits of wood that are gun shaped orwater pistols will NOT make the blindest bit of difference to the crime rate or illegal firearms pool out there!

You know,I wonder is it actually politicans,and public servants that should be liscensed,tested for competancy and sanity.As well as being quizzed,vetted by the Gardai as for their "good reason" for wanting a job in the public service or for "leading" a people..
As one minister with a pen stroke ,or by opening their mouth can wreak more long lasting havoc on a community and country than any nutter on a shooting spree.:eek:

dresden8

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

No doubt this is now because of the North Wall shooting!

No doubt.

Whichever Superintendent issued a handgun licence to that 15 year old should be strung up by their balls.

Rovi

From the Irish Times website, a few minutes ago-
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1208/breaking13.htm

The main story is about the North Wall murder, this is snipped from the body of the article:

Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern tonight vowed to virtually wipe out handgun ownership in the State amid growing calls for a full-force offensive against the surging gun culture.

“This was a dastardly and despicable crime,” he said. ““The shooting underlines yet again how we have to crack down on handguns in our society.

“At the moment we have to establish whether the gun used in this was illegal or legal, although that it is irrelevant to the family of the deceased man. But my legislation banning the massive growth in ownership of legal handguns is pushing ahead.

“I intend to remove the 1,800 legally held handguns as soon as possible and I know gardaí continue to seize significant numbers of illegal handguns, the Minister added. “I know from talking to senior gardai that handguns continue to pose a major threat and both myself and the Garda will continue to crack down on their use.”


Fine Gael’s justice spokesman Charlie Flanagan called on the Government to order a six-month Garda crackdown on guns and knives and to back his party’s calls for ten year sentences for those convicted of carrying weapons and a new offence of not reporting lost or stolen firearms or ammunition.

I'm appalled that the Minister is trying to suggest that this might somehow be a legally held handgun, it's a despicable piece of spin. :mad:

chem

Like it or not. Every gun licence in this state is now under the eye of Ahern. Get emailing again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EDIT: Just wondering. Is the government looking to get any olympic target shooters here for training for the 2012 Olymipics? Would this be the reason for not banning the sport? Just seems to me like they feel they might make a few €€€ out of it, as the UK wont allow it there. So will Olympic pistol get the same treatment, if no country decides to train here?

FCP were led like lambs.....we were made feel like adults by the government only to be slapped around the back of the head and sent off to bed.

Someone gets murdered here and they ban toy guns! Go figure!

"Fine Gael’s justice spokesman Charlie Flanagan called on the Government to order a six-month Garda crackdown on guns and knives and to back his party’s calls for ten year sentences for those convicted of carrying weapons and a new offence of not reporting lost or stolen firearms or ammunition."

At what point will this stop?

Is this paraphrasing the TD or a direct quote, I wonder?

And what exactly defines a "weapon"? (please note the use of inverted commas, people!).

Idle speculation, but is it possible that we could get to the stage where not ony firearms, but knives are banned? God forbid we should carry a penknife on us!! :eek:

Slightly off topic, and I appreciate that this may be considered harping on by me, but this again highlights the need to discuss blades in a reasonable and considered manner. Hopefully this might help stay the tide of uneducated hysteria in a small way...

With that in mind, folks, please support the proposed Blades forum (hyperlink to thread in my signature...).

Druss.

Rew

If you ask me the minister is trying to build him self up off the back of a 2nd murder.

G17

“I intend to remove the 1,800 legally held handguns as soon as possible and I know gardaí continue to seize significant numbers of illegal handguns, the Minister added. “I know from talking to senior gardai that handguns continue to pose a major threat and both myself and the Garda will continue to crack down on their use.”

Surely the most grave comment made to date, if the comment is reported accurately.

Roll on the Misc Bill so I can get on with my sporting life one way or another. For those of us who love pistol target shooting this really is such cruel emotional punishment.

Meyer

Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern tonight vowed to virtually wipe out handgun ownership in the State amid growing calls for a full-force offensive against the surging gun culture.

“This was a dastardly and despicable crime,” he said. ““The shooting underlines yet again how we have to crack down on handguns in our society.

Are we living in a real life "1984" or is the Minister so far removed from reality, that he can equate legally held firearms with his "surging gun culture"?
The shooting does not underline how "we have to crack down on handguns", it underlines how the Minister, his department, and An Garda Siochana have to crack down on criminals...Guns don't kill people, people kill people! Remove the criminals from society...problem solved! (Then again can we afford newer bigger prisons, and longer prison sentences, in troubled economic times...well can we Minister?)

“At the moment we have to establish whether the gun used in this was illegal or legal, although that it is irrelevant to the family of the deceased man.

And when the gun used, no doubt turns out to be illegal...will the Minister stand and face that poor family, and say "worry not I have removed legal handguns from law abiding citizens, you can take solace in that fact." or will he do what needs to be done?(I won't hold my breath.)

But my legislation banning the massive growth in ownership of legal handguns is pushing ahead.

Where is the legislation banning the massive increase in narcotics, organised crime, people smuggling, forced prostitution, etc, etc, etc...? And massive growth? Come on really!

“I intend to remove the 1,800 legally held handguns as soon as possible

Lest all of us law abiding citizens become lunatics and just decide to become organised criminals no doubt! Think about it Target shooters...You have a firearm, and the finacial means to actually own one...
Give it up, give up a job that allows you to purchase a safe, an alarm, and that your house has the required locks fitted, not to mention the criminal prices that handguns command in this country, because this seems to be what the Minister seems to fear, i.e. that we are all potential gangsters...

packas

Charlie Flanagan was on RTE radio 1 this moring talking a lot of sense. It's ultimately a drugs issue. I beleive the Ministier is as always looking for an excuse to tkae away legally held firearms. I think the media & general public are beginning see right through this. Law abiding citizens (i.e. sport shooting community) are an easy target for him. I know where my vote will go at the next election.

Clash

You know the more I think about this and the more I read in the papers about it, Im starting to believe that it's the use of firearms in self defence that the minister is worried about.

I'm not sure if saying that goes against the charter here, if so please remove it.

macnas

As much as I disagreed with McDowell on lots of issues, at least he wasn't led like an ass on a rope by the Gardai.
I hope he has the cheque book to back up the tough talk because he owes me money!!!:mad:

Abdiel

Seems like a case of the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one".

As licensed gun holders, you are in a serious minority. It's not just a media backlash btw, I am sure most of the residents of East Wall would back a complete ban on handguns - as would most non-gun holding residents.

Somebody raised the point what happens when a licenced gun is used in a self-defence killing. Well statistically speaking it would be more likely that the licenced holder of the gun would end up being shot with their own gun.

The fact is there is absolutely no reason to legally possess a handgun in this country. If you really are a target-shooter, take up archery, it requires a lot more skill.

While I admit banning all replica guns and airsoft guns might be a bit excessive, throwing your tantrums here really wont help and if anything portrays you as rather immature and leading to the question - how did these people ever get a licence in the first place. Do we really want a load of tantrum throwing overgrown babies going around carrying firearms - whether they are licenced or not.

Vegeta

Abdiel wrote: »

As licensed gun holders, you are in a serious minority. It's not just a media backlash btw, I am sure most of the residents of East Wall would back a complete ban on handguns - as would most non-gun holding residents.

Really, there have been 2 threads on boards (politics and legal discussion forums) discussing this and in both, people saw this for what it is, cheap political point scoring. So your opinion is shown to be incorrect in both those instances

What will people in East Wall do when the next person there is killed by a handgun, after they have been banned. They wont be able to point the finger at us any more. Maybe then they will realise that we're not the problem.

People killed every year by Cervical Cancer cause by HPV approx 80
People killed every year by legally held firearms, 0

Good to see where the government are focusing their resources and money.

Rew

Abdiel wrote: »

Seems like a case of the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one".

As licensed gun holders, you are in a serious minority. It's not just a media backlash btw, I am sure most of the residents of East Wall would back a complete ban on handguns - as would most non-gun holding residents.

Somebody raised the point what happens when a licenced gun is used in a self-defence killing. Well statistically speaking it would be more likely that the licenced holder of the gun would end up being shot with their own gun.

The fact is there is absolutely no reason to legally possess a handgun in this country. If you really are a target-shooter, take up archery, it requires a lot more skill.

While I admit banning all replica guns and airsoft guns might be a bit excessive, throwing your tantrums here really wont help and if anything portrays you as rather immature and leading to the question - how did these people ever get a licence in the first place. Do we really want a load of tantrum throwing overgrown babies going around carrying firearms - whether they are licenced or not.

Thats a very small minded post. Tantrums? What happend in East Wall has nothing to do with legal handguns. The "Tantrums" you talk about are the revulsion that licence holders feel by being assoicated with incidents like that and even blmaed for it by people like you.

Target shooting and archery are complealty unrealted sports. Its like saying if you want to go car raceing your should take up horse riding. Target shooting with handguns is a sport in the Olympics.

Your quoting statisitcs from another country, next you will be telling us that the Irish population is obese because the US population is.

You would find your self on the wrong side of the law using a firearm for self defence here. If you want to quote stats from other countries why not look at our nearest neighbour, England. Gun crime is though the roof despite a handgun ban. I dont understand whay people dont get it - Criminals don't licence their guns.

PJ Hunter

Proliferation of illicit small arms. Is this what its all about. Sporting firearms
getting mangled in with the illicit international trade around the world to supply the 3rd world.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/storyAr.asp?NewsID=18994&Cr=small&Cr1=arms

Jonty

Abdiel wrote: »

Seems like a case of the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one".

As licensed gun holders, you are in a serious minority. It's not just a media backlash btw, I am sure most of the residents of East Wall would back a complete ban on handguns - as would most non-gun holding residents.

Somebody raised the point what happens when a licenced gun is used in a self-defence killing. Well statistically speaking it would be more likely that the licenced holder of the gun would end up being shot with their own gun.

The fact is there is absolutely no reason to legally possess a handgun in this country. If you really are a target-shooter, take up archery, it requires a lot more skill.

While I admit banning all replica guns and airsoft guns might be a bit excessive, throwing your tantrums here really wont help and if anything portrays you as rather immature and leading to the question - how did these people ever get a licence in the first place. Do we really want a load of tantrum throwing overgrown babies going around carrying firearms - whether they are licenced or not.

While I'm not a handgun owner, I feel that your comments are out of place. It is very normal for people here to be vexed. Many have poured 1000's of euros into their sport and to have it taken away on a whim is not right.

I fully condemn the death of that man in East Wall and hope the perpitrator is brought to justice, but to compare legitimate, responsible gun owners (remember, these people who own licensed handguns are fully vetted by An Garda Siochana) to scum that committed this horrendous crime.

Furthermore, Target Shooting is a ligitimate sport that is persued by licensed gun owners in this country. To suggest that they take up archery instead as it is more challenging suggests that you yourself are an expert in firearms marksmanship, perhaps you would like to share your wealth of knowledge with us asa to why archery is more complex than target shooting with handguns??

No handguns are licenced in the Republic Of Ireland for "self defence". This is not the United States, as Minister Aherne imagines us in 4 years time. If a licensed firearm is used in self defence, the matter would have to be fully investigated by An Garda Siochana.

I agree fully that Licenced gun owners are in a minority, but does that make a majority rule OK? To ban licensed handguns is not the answer. To do so is the same as banning cars as people get killed in car accidents. That is the same rationale that is currently being used in this country.

Also, incorrect and "dramatic" media coverage of the proposed handgun restriction has not helped the situation. To make things worse, Minister Aherne is swallowing what he is being fed by the press and the upper echelons of An Garda Siochana, hook, line and sinker.

Please readback through the following Link:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055422137

It will point out many innaccuracies in the media.

rrpc

Abdiel wrote: »

Seems like a case of the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one".

As licensed gun holders, you are in a serious minority. It's not just a media backlash btw, I am sure most of the residents of East Wall would back a complete ban on handguns - as would most non-gun holding residents.

I would agree with you Abdiel. Unfortunately you can say the same for most sports because those who don't particpate generally will not see the need for the sport at all. Witness all the jokes about golf being a good walk ruined or rugby being described as a sport for blood donors or people slagging synchronised swimming, beach volleyball etc.

That doesn't make the sport invalid, it just demonstrates a lack of knowledge of the sport.

The fact is there is absolutely no reason to legally possess a handgun in this country. If you really are a target-shooter, take up archery, it requires a lot more skill.

There you demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge of target shooting. Archery is a demanding sport and requires considerable skill. However, you would need to have tried target shooting yourself before you can comment on its difficulty. Archery is not a sport for everybody either. It is extremely difficult if not impossible for disabled and older people to take part in, which they do in target shooting in great numbers

While I admit banning all replica guns and airsoft guns might be a bit excessive, throwing your tantrums here really wont help and if anything portrays you as rather immature and leading to the question - how did these people ever get a licence in the first place. Do we really want a load of tantrum throwing overgrown babies going around carrying firearms - whether they are licenced or not.

You dismiss the passionate feelings that people have for their sport as mere tantrums. When your sport or pastime is threatened by the actions of people who have no connection to it, perhaps you would think differently.

Perhaps if I suggested that all violent computer games should be banned along with films depicting violence in order to prevent desensitisation of young minds to such violence would you be in agreement?

gandalf

For clarity I am not a handgun owner either but I am an airsoft player.

This current situation is an attempt by a lame duck government to appear in control of a situation that is obviously beyond them. From the released statistics and the lack of confirmation that any of the murders committed have been carried out by the tiny number of stolen legal firearms it is glaringly obvious to all and sundry that the problem here is the gang culture linked with drugs and all the guns that are being used are getting into this country with drugs shipments.

The Government need to resource the Gardai to tackle the drug gangs mercilessly. The CAB need to be set on all involved from the Street up to the very top of the illegal organisations. Prison sentences need to be increased for gang related crimes against the person and if necessary gang drug related crimes be classified as terrorist activities and the current Special Court Criminal mechanism be used against them.

At the moment it appears that this government are being advised what will get them the quick PR fix and not to fix the actual problem at hand. Unfortunately for the target pistol shooters they are an easy mark with very little election fallout for the government.

delop

Abdiel wrote: »

Seems like a case of the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one".

+1

I was shocked to find out a few weeks ago that all handguns were not banned in Ireland, and I still feel that it would be the lesser evil if they were. If they are banned, it would be a good Idea IMO to then have a Mandatory 25yrs for being caught with one...

rrpc

delop wrote: »

+1

I was shocked to find out a few weeks ago that all handguns were not banned in Ireland, and I still feel that it would be the lesser evil if they were. If they are banned, it would be a good Idea IMO to then have a Mandatory 25yrs for being caught with one...

You make a statement like that with no reason given, so now I'm asking...

Why?

Vegeta

delop wrote: »

+1

I was shocked to find out a few weeks ago that all handguns were not banned in Ireland,

Does that in itself not show you how unobtrusive and little of a problem they are?

delop

rrpc wrote: »

You make a statement like that with no reason given, so now I'm asking...

Why?

I made a few statements, which one do you want me to elaborate on?

rrpc

delop wrote: »

I made a few statements, which one do you want me to elaborate on?

The principal one:

delop wrote:

...all handguns were not banned in Ireland, and I still feel that it would be the lesser evil if they were.

delop

rrpc wrote: »

The principal one:

Well.... Yes its unfair to punish gun enthusiasts by making handguns illegal, but its a lesser evil than allowing people to keep guns in their house or in the back of their cars. One stole gun could be enough to cause a tragedy....

And Criminals running around with 'illegal' handguns is a completely separate issue IMO...

Rew

delop wrote: »

Well.... Yes its unfair to punish gun enthusiasts by making handguns illegal, but its a lesser evil than allowing people to keep guns in their house or in the back of their cars. One stole gun could be enough to cause a tragedy....

So is one stolen bus, car, knife, baseball bat, golf club etc. Do you think we should ban all those. Not to leave out a bow as used in archery, mentioned above, as well.

Vegeta

delop wrote: »

Well.... Yes its unfair to punish gun enthusiasts by making handguns illegal, but its a lesser evil than allowing people to keep guns in their house or in the back of their cars. One stole gun could be enough to cause a tragedy....

Now maybe you are indeed against all firearms (which you are entitled to be) but I just wanted to point out that your arguement applies to all firearms not just handguns.

So why single out the handguns?

rrpc

delop wrote: »

Well.... Yes its unfair to punish gun enthusiasts by making handguns illegal, but its a lesser evil than allowing people to keep guns in their house or in the back of their cars. One stole gun could be enough to cause a tragedy....

It would indeed, and evey responsible firearms owner would be very aware of that fact and take extreme measures to make sure it doesn't happen. This is why safes are mandatory and in the case of handguns; monitored alarms are also required.

But even that point requires that there be criminal activity in the first place which as many peole have said here should be the first priority of the Government. It would be like telling people that they shouldn't have televisions because criminals steal them to make money for drugs etc.

And Criminals running around with 'illegal' handguns is a completely separate issue IMO...

Indeed, which makes it very hard to take when you as a responsible member of the public who should be protected from criminals are instead branded as one of them.

Bananaman

Delop,

I personally feel that there should be EXTREME penalties for breaches of the firearms laws.

People who are caught in breach of these laws - such as the underage kid who shot that poor guy in East Wall - should face a penalty that is an absolute deterrent to others.

Gangland criminals caught in possession of firearms or ammunition should face a penalty that matches their crime or potential crime and will be a real deterrent.

I do not think they should locked up with their mates for a while - they should be doing something like cleaning chewing gum off O'Connell Street with a paint scraper while wearing a hot pink tracksuit and sandals every day for the duration of their sentence. they should be cleaning rubbish from the canals - every day of their sentence. They should fear their sentence.

I want the criminals off our streets - I want to feel safe on the streets - I want the scumbags to think twice before picking up a gun. I want them to think of the consequences of their actions.

I want the government to make that happen.

It's bad enough that the criminals are dictating where we can and cannot go on the streets but the government intend to restrict what sports we can compete in on foot of the actions of those very criminals.

I am not a criminal, I will never commit a crime, I will never be in breach of the firearms legislation. I am sick of being tarred with the criminal brush.

I own a handgun for which I am legally licensed to compete in the target shooting sports.

I cannot see, in any way, how abolishing those sports and banning the owning of the firearms used to compete in those sports will make me feel any safer walking the streets at night. Therefore, I cannot see how it would make anyone else feel any safer.

This is a smokescreen, it is an attempt to fulfill an unrelated political agenda.
This is the press in a feeding frenzy.

Your comments worry me as you have formed them on the basis of what you have been told in the press. Have we all become sheep?

B'Man