The Minister strikes back

delop

Rew wrote: »

So is one stolen bus, car, knife, baseball bat, golf club etc. Do you think we should ban all those. Not to leave out a bow as used in archery, mentioned above, as well.

Now, if thats yer argument to support your hobby then there isnt much hope for ye

Vegeta wrote: »

So why single out the handguns?

because of the ease of concealment and arguably there should be no reason that a member of the public should have one at all...

rrpc

delop wrote: »

because of the ease of concealment and arguably there should be no reason that a member of the public should have one at all...

You're still walking down the road of pointing the finger at people who have been cleared through the Gardai to have a licence for a firearm. Do you not see how reprehensible that is?

Forget the reason for a minute, the Gardai have already decided at Superintendent level that you have a good demonstrated reason for having a firearm.

Grizzly 45

[

quote=Abdiel;58197347]Seems like a case of the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one".

Majority rules right???Maybe you should consider that same excuse was used in a lovely country called Germany in around 1939 when a little man from Austria was in power and had a problem with a few ethnic races ???
What would be more appropriate would be the needs of the many are not served by persecuting an innocent minority,now or ever , for the sins of the evil ones in the many.

As licensed gun holders, you are in a serious minority. It's not just a media backlash btw,

I see..So then maybe we should also jail &deport all Saudai Whabbist Muslims from the State as welll,going by your logic???As they are the most likeliest sect of Muslims to provide sucide bombers for Al Quieda,and we wouldnt want good ol Ireland linked with terrorist crimes now??
If you tried that there would be a massive backlash ,and hopefully as a minister you would be out on your ear before you could say "State pension" and rightly so...There was once a precept in law and democracy ,that you were innocent until proven guilty.Dont know if that still applies here anymore,but it seems unlikely,in our case.:rolleyes:

I am sure most of the residents of East Wall would back a complete ban on handguns - as would most non-gun holding residents.

And when the next person is shot by an illegally owned handgun,and the next,and the next.Will they sleep any easier or feel safer knowing that all legally handguns are banned and nothing else nasty will ever happen to them again??
All the criminals will say is.."Our kind of fools",and continue on their merry ways.

Somebody raised the point what happens when a licenced gun is used in a self-defence killing. Well statistically speaking it would be more likely that the licenced holder of the gun would end up being shot with their own gun.

If you were to belive handgun control inc in the USA.While going slightly OT here.It is actually likely if you are a police officer in the US.You have a better chance of being killed with your own firearm.Also if this is true there should be mass deaths in States that allow their citizens to carry concealed weapons [ccw].In reality the ccw states the crime stats have DROPPED dramatically since introduction.Says somthing too,nor were there any rivers of blood mass shootingsin any states as predicted by the hysterical gun banners.

The fact is there is absolutely no reason to legally possess a handgun in this country. If you really are a target-shooter, take up archery, it requires a lot more skill.

The FACT is ,you have obviously never tried either sports and wouldn't talk so gilbly about shooting sports if you had.There is also NO reason to own a vechicle that hast he capability of going over 70mph in this country,but we dont go and ban them or certain marks because they are the favourd method of transport by criminals either.

While I admit banning all replica guns and airsoft guns might be a bit excessive, throwing your tantrums here really wont help and if anything portrays you as rather immature and leading to the question - how did these people ever get a licence in the first place.

You are mistaking passionately held belifs and resentment at being scapegoated for tantrums,friend.How would you feel if somone in Govt started blaming your favourite hobby or whatever your passion in life is for all the social and crime problems in a country?Walk a mile in our shoes and all that.

Do we really want a load of tantrum throwing overgrown babies going around carrying firearms - whether they are licenced or not.

[/QUOTE]
Actually that description being applied more appropiatly to people in cars.You see that kind of behaviour from the average motorist on our roads these days.They are in charge of a 100% more deadly weapon than a gun any day!

Rew

delop wrote: »

Now, if thats yer argument to support your hobby then there isnt much hope for ye

Why? Im just pointing out the obvious. They can all be used as weapons and have been used in this country and killed more people then any guns have yet you want to ban handguns.

People are stabed, ran over and beaten to death in this country almost daily. This isn't the first time someone has been killed when they chase a group of kids from the front of their house yet politicians are calling it a watershead?

We have fundemental problems in society and prohibition of any kind isnt going to solve them. If banning things works why do we have a rampent drug problem in Ireland?

The_Minister

The title of the thread is slanderous, and I demand that it is changed.

sixpointfive

Just give it up like that? i dont think you realise the amount of grief and expense involved in getting a license for a pistol and aside from all that, some of the best shooters are from Ireland, one is top ten in the world at his discipline,i dont think it is a fair comment to say "just give it up and take up archery", people are passionate about their sports and that is why some of us are getting a bit frustrated at the comments in the media, can you imagine the higgin if the minister was to say drag hunts were banned outright or some other minority sport got the chop unfairly, just because its not rugby or golf and doesnt have millions of participants or fans nationwide doesnt make it any less of a sport,

rrpc

The_Minister wrote: »

The title of the thread is slanderous, and I demand that it is changed.

Or The_Minister will really strike back

Grizzly 45

because of the ease of concealment and arguably there should be no reason that a member of the public should have one at all...

[/QUOTE]
I see...So shotgun barrels cant be sawn off or wood now defies a saw as well?? You obviously have never heard of a sawn off shotgun??a lot easier and deadlier at close range than any handgun. Argueably there is also many other things out in public life that we have no good reason to own or do.Yet we do them anyway and no one gets upset.

GO JUMP on the title change:p.If you consider yourself the Minister for [in]justice..SUE me:p

Sparks

delop wrote: »

Well.... Yes its unfair to punish gun enthusiasts by making handguns illegal

Actually, the word you're seeking is not "unfair". Phrases like "group punishment of innocent people for the crimes of others" come to mind as being more accurate.

its a lesser evil

Is it? By banning handguns, the Minister can claim that he has "done something about it" when in fact he has not. So you're talking about a course of action which does not address the problem, gives a false sense of security to the 95% of the population who know little about the issue, and lets criminals off scott free, all of which results in a government with undermined credibility (and probably a lifespan measured in months) and an even larger criminal problem, one which will be harder to tackle when the current government is voted out of office.
So frankly, it doesn't seem like the lesser evil to those who take a longer view.

Sparks

sixpointfive wrote: »

Ji dont think it is a fair comment to say "just give it up and take up archery"

Speaking as a target shooter who has taken up archery, the original comment that the two sports are equivalent are simply wrong. Olympic target shooting and Olympic archery have some similarities in the mental game when you get to the top level, but the very basic fundamentals are exceptionally different.
And frankly, I still believe that target shooting is the safer sport for both participants and spectators (not that archers are dropping dead every other day, but anyone who thinks an arrow loosed from a 45-lb olympic bow won't do you any harm is woefully ignorant of the physiology of their own bodies).

rrpc

We're all forgetting here that a man who was being tormented by a bunch of teenagers, was effectively lured to his death by those same teenagers. Anybody who thinks this was an accident or that shooting the poor man was unintentional is missing the point that they had a firearm with intent to cause harm.

The minister in reponse has made the outrageous statement that he is going to ban legally held handguns.

There is no attempt here to either deal with the mentality that lures a man to his death, or the lack of protection afforded to law-abiding people in this country and in its capital city.

The UK already has gone down this route. There is a growing use of firearms by youths involved either directly or peripherally in criminality in the major cities in Britain and remember there are now no legally held handguns in that country, yet gun crime has risen by 700% since 2000.

To talk about licensed hadguns in this context, apart from the grevious insult it delivers to law abiding citizens is breathtakingly stupid and can only demonstrate that there is no longer any semblance of clear thinking or planning within the government. We have clear examples throughout every ministry in government as to just how clueless and lost they are.

It is Nero fiddling while Rome burns in a modern context.

sixpointfive

Sparks wrote: »

Speaking as a target shooter who has taken up archery, the original comment that the two sports are equivalent are simply wrong. Olympic target shooting and Olympic archery have some similarities in the mental game when you get to the top level, but the very basic fundamentals are exceptionally different.
And frankly, I still believe that target shooting is the safer sport for both participants and spectators (not that archers are dropping dead every other day, but anyone who thinks an arrow loosed from a 45-lb olympic bow won't do you any harm is woefully ignorant of the physiology of their own bodies).

Oh im not knocking archery for a minute, its a very interesting sport, im just getting at that you cant just expect someone to drop their sport of choice and take up something nearly the same, like GAA man being told to play rugby or soccer, they are all football but worlds apart,

Red Renard

We're all forgetting here that a man who was being tormented by a bunch of teenagers, was effectively lured to his death by those same teenagers.

If teenagers now have easy access to unlicensed firearms,think nothing of committing a murder because this unfortunate gave chase, does this not confirm the supply of illegal "weapons & drugs" are awash throughout the Country. Life is cheap!

rrpc

It would be instructive if one of our courageous investigative reporters were to actually try and acquire an illegal handgun on the streets of Dublin, Limerick or any other of our cities that are currently being plagued by criminals with firearms.

Although I suspect that they are neither courageous nor investigative enough to bother.

Jacobo

delop wrote: »

I was shocked to find out a few weeks ago that all handguns were not banned in Ireland

I guess that, when you wrote this, you were thinking of people carrying pistols around in a holster under their coat

When you apply for a firearms licence you have to prove that you have a reason to possess it. Target shooting is a valid reason; self-defence is, as far as I know, not a valid reason, so no people walking around with holsters. Hunting is another reason, but only for shotguns and rifles, not for pistols. So mostly everyone who got a handgun got it for target shooting.

Target shooting firearms can only be at one of three places: at home, at the range, or on the way from one to the other. Those firearms are carried unloaded (and, sometimes, partially disassembled) in a case. A firearms case, not a violin case

Also, they are expensive, and they are expected to be able to make a hole in a stamp-sized target from very far away every time you pull the trigger, so they have to be treated very carefully.

As I said, you won't get the licence unless you prove that you need it and that you are going to use the firearm for that purpose. So, how do you prove that you are to do target shooting? By joining a club, receiving training in safe firearm handling and basically staying around for long enough that the people at the club will get to know you, see that you are level-headed, not a public danger, etc. This "long enough" is usually one year or more. So nobody is going to get a firearms licence in a hurry.

After that, you have to prove that you can store the firearm safely. The bare minimum is a safe -- quite often, the Gardaí will ask you to also install a monitored alarm. So, as you went to that expense to have the firearms licence, you may as well lock the gun in the safe and turn the alarm on every night and be sure nobody is going to steal it

Really, getting a firearms licence is not easy, quick or cheap. And in the end, when you finally got your licence and your firearm, it is in your best interest to not do anything stupid and lose them.

(Illegal firearms are cheaper, easier and quicker to get. You don't need to deal with an Garda, nobody is going to ask you for a reason to have it, and nobody is going to tell you to get a safe and an alarm. Plus, you can carry them concealed on your person at all times, and you don't lose them when you do something illegal or firearms get banned -- yours was banned in the first place!)

PJ Hunter

Back of the beer mat calculation.

1800 pistols / revolvers / others. Divide in half. 900 full bore pistols / revolvers for argument sake.
Of the 900, not all are 9mm glocks, is it also fair say they are not all in one city but spread around the country. Does anyone know how many
9mm licensed pistols are in the greater Dublin area approximately. Any estimates for the number of illegal pistols Nationally.

Sikamick

Abdiel I am not going to slag you off for having your opinion, mainly because I believe in democracy and I don't think any user of this forum should do so either.

I would like to draw to your attention that one the Ministers worries is that a Licensed Pistol could be stolen and used in a murder.

He the Minister needs to look at the number of cars that have been stolen and ended in people losing their lives whether by accident or design, people are dieing and being maimed by scumbags that steel cars. One could say that the Minister should take all cars off the road.

Re Bows I have a friend that works as a door man on a local pub and because he barred a scumbag, he ended having a cross bow bolt shot at him that stuck in the door inches from his head.

It is not the item that is used, its the scumbag that uses it: Gun,
Baseball Bat, Knife, Car etc. etc. etc.

My opinion.

Sikamick


_______________________________________________________________

Abdiel wrote: »

Seems like a case of the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one".

As licensed gun holders, you are in a serious minority. It's not just a media backlash btw, I am sure most of the residents of East Wall would back a complete ban on handguns - as would most non-gun holding residents.

Somebody raised the point what happens when a licenced gun is used in a self-defence killing. Well statistically speaking it would be more likely that the licenced holder of the gun would end up being shot with their own gun.

The fact is there is absolutely no reason to legally possess a handgun in this country. If you really are a target-shooter, take up archery, it requires a lot more skill.

While I admit banning all replica guns and airsoft guns might be a bit excessive, throwing your tantrums here really wont help and if anything portrays you as rather immature and leading to the question - how did these people ever get a licence in the first place. Do we really want a load of tantrum throwing overgrown babies going around carrying firearms - whether they are licenced or not.

rrpc

PJ Hunter wrote: »

Back of the beer mat calculation.

1800 pistols / revolvers / others. Divide in half. 900 full bore pistols / revolvers for argument sake.
Of the 900, not all are 9mm glocks, is it also fair say they are not all in one city but spread around the country. Does anyone know how many
9mm licensed pistols are in the greater Dublin area approximately. Any estimates for the number of illegal pistols Nationally.

468 licensed handguns in the entire Dublin Metropolitan area. That's from Balbriggan down as far as Dun Laoghaire. That would include air pistols, humane killers, starting pistols etc. No breakdown on make or calibre.

Taken from the figures given to Fine Gael and posted here somewhere.

From the Garda report 2007: 321 pistols, airguns and revolvers were siezed from criminals as well as 10 machine guns :eek:. On the basis that they recover 10% of those in circulation....

ranger4

Meyer wrote: »

Are we living in a real life "1984" or is the Minister so far removed from reality, that he can equate legally held firearms with his "surging gun culture"?
The shooting does not underline how "we have to crack down on handguns", it underlines how the Minister, his department, and An Garda Siochana have to crack down on criminals...Guns don't kill people, people kill people! Remove the criminals from society...problem solved! (Then again can we afford newer bigger prisons, and longer prison sentences, in troubled economic times...well can we Minister?)




And when the gun used, no doubt turns out to be illegal...will the Minister stand and face that poor family, and say "worry not I have removed legal handguns from law abiding citizens, you can take solace in that fact." or will he do what needs to be done?(I won't hold my breath.)




Where is the legislation banning the massive increase in narcotics, organised crime, people smuggling, forced prostitution, etc, etc, etc...? And massive growth? Come on really!



Lest all of us law abiding citizens become lunatics and just decide to become organised criminals no doubt! Think about it Target shooters...You have a firearm, and the finacial means to actually own one...
Give it up, give up a job that allows you to purchase a safe, an alarm, and that your house has the required locks fitted, not to mention the criminal prices that handguns command in this country, because this seems to be what the Minister seems to fear, i.e. that we are all potential gangsters...

Now is the time for our so called leaders to show some real leadership as well as kick starting the economy, start a massive prison building programe which would give employment to thousands of workers then show true leadership and jail the crimmy scum that are found in possesion of firearms for a min of 15 years, why are thease waisters still in government.

rrpc

ranger4 wrote: »

why are thease waisters still in government.

Because you voted them in. I say you, because I certainly didn't

ranger4

rrpc wrote: »

Because you voted them in. I say you, because I certainly didn't

sinn fein man myself.

Vegeta

ranger4 wrote: »

sinn fein man myself.

Sinn Fein are anti blood sport

Jacobo

rrpc wrote: »

From the Garda report 2007: 321 pistols, airguns and revolvers were siezed from criminals as well as 10 machine guns :eek:. On the basis that they recover 10% of those in circulation....

Interesting, interesting. I have been looking at older reports, and know what? Until 2005, air guns and pistols were reported separately; in 2006 they were aggregated for the first time.

So, I guess you are wondering how few airguns there were to merit their assimilation into the much bigger "pistols" category:

Year | Pistols | Airguns | Pistols/airguns | Revolvers | Shotguns | Rifles
2007 | | | 293 | 28 | 206 | 59
2006 | | | 356 | 82 | 231 | 125
2005 | 60 | 314 | | 34 | 216 | 69
2004 | 70 | 49 | | 21 | 358 | 164
2003 | 45 | 168 | | 23 | 270 | 124
2002 | 27 | 246 | | 26 | 230 | 68
2001 | 27 | 246 | | 26 | 230 | 68
2000 | 55 | 295 | | 40 | 249 | 86
1999 | 75 | 215 | | 46 | 234 | 93

Oops! It looks there are many more airguns every year than pistols! Or shotguns, or rifles, for that matter! (Edit: I don't believe the "49 airguns" in 2004, but that's what appears in the report).

I suggest you Irish citizens start writing to your favourite TD again

(Also interesting how in 2001 and 2002 the statistics were exactly the same. No, the mistake was not mine. And the year was different in both tables.)

sfakiaman

Vegeta wrote: »

Sinn Fein are anti blood sport

Also anti legal firearms in private ownership, at least in the north. "By their friends may ye know them".

Hivemind187

I normally dont post here but under the circumstances I feel I have something to offer.

"Needs of the many ... mob rule ... you're a minority" /nasty pointy fingers.

The above is gibberish and intentionally so. Ireland (as a whole and not simply the microcosm of any one sport or of boards.ie) is under the delusion that we exist in a democracy. We dont. Ireland is a Republic (hence the Republic of Ireland) and part of the system of a Republic are the checks and balances removing what is called "the tyranny of mob rule" - essentially this prevents the majority from persecuting, undermining, marginalising or removing the rights of the minority which is the natural and documented reaction of any unchecked majority (in terms of power).

I really feel from watching the way this conversation has gone in the press and with the authorities that a small group of people are being singled out because they have made themselves an easy target - not by being overt or by operating irresponsibly - but by following the rules laid down by the very authorities who now wish to vilify and indeed criminalise them.

"Yeah but that kid used a gun to shoot that guy" etc

A weapon, objectively speaking, is any object or device weilded with the intent of causing harm to another person or persons. This can (and should) include brick, bottles, bombs, bullets, baseballs and badgers. No object, left undisturbed is capable of comiting an act of violence or causing harm. Suggesting so is illogical and extremely dishonest.

The facts are often over shadowed by the emotional investment we place in nouns. Gun. Knife. Bomb. These are the names we give to objects and they inspire an emotional response. They are, however, not the act (verbs) such as "shot", "stabbed" or "exploded". Nor are they the pronouns "he" "she" "Billy" "Timmy" etc. In other words, the fault lies with the individual and the act that individual chose to perpetrate not with the device or object used.

The public (not to be confused with "the individual") is a fearful, panic stricken, easily manipulated baby. It knows it is afraid and it wants something done about the scary thing. The public may not actually know what it is afraid of or understand why it is afraid but the public wants someone or something to do something about that fear. There are those (the authorities) whose livihoods and careers rest on the emotions and feelings of the public so catering to its needs is crucial to those individuals well being. The shotest distance between two points being a straight line the authorities find the quickest way to appease the baby is to give it what it wants.

The authorities, contrary to popular belief, are not willfully stupid, most of them are astute and smart enough to get themselves elected. Unfortunately the public is not terribly bright and is likely to demand the things that will be of no benefit to it. In this case, the removal of licensed firearms.

I would point out at this point that the logic behind this line of thought appears to be imbuing something with attributes it does not have. Its the same mentality behind racism and racial profiling only with even less circumstantial evidence. There is no basis for it and the one or two examples that seem to fit the facts are not representative of the over all trend i.e. owning or possessing a gun does not imply that said owner will be involved (or have a much greater chance) of being involved in a violent criminal act.

Pretty much everyone on this board will know all of this already I just find it very interesting from the two years I've been watching the airsoft question how often these same issues and comments arise in our respective fields.

sfakiaman

Hivemind187 wrote: »

I normally dont post here but under the circumstances I feel I have something to offer.


Unfortunately the public is not terribly bright and is likely to demand the things that will be of no benefit to it. In this case, the removal of licensed firearms.

I don't belive there ever was a public demand for increased control of firearms. What demand there is, is being brought about by what I believe is called "The Manufacture of Consent". There are always politicians and media workers with their own agendas waiting for an opportunity to promote their own beliefs (or ego's). Our difficulty is to get others of their profession to publicly speak against them.

k_d

100fm now,theres a man talking sense!

Rew

Whats being said?

k_d

was very quick piece, your man just pritty much said what people here been saying, "banning legal hand guns is not goin to work". think he also said something along the lines of "criminals dont go into a station to get a licence.!"

lets have more of him on for the sake of anyone here with a hanggun

Grizzly 45

rrpc wrote: »

It would be instructive if one of our courageous investigative reporters were to actually try and acquire an illegal handgun on the streets of Dublin, Limerick or any other of our cities that are currently being plagued by criminals with firearms.

Although I suspect that they are neither courageous nor investigative enough to bother.

Definately a large of amount testicular matter is required for such an enterprise.:rolleyes:
Sadly mostly lacking in the mejia in Ireland.Had this out with a journo about this subject awhile ago on doing this exactly.The brown stripe of fecal matter as they exited Stage Left,was somthing to be seen!
Sorry I dont think our crop in Ireland need consider writing any acceptence speechs for a Pulitizer:(