Where to train managers?

anonymous_joe

I just read a quote from Paul Ince that set me thinking.

He says "it is important the likes of myself, Gareth Southgate and Tony Adams get their grounding in the Premier League and some experience" but he still hasn't completed the coaching course mandatory for Premier League managers.

Twas on F365.

Anyway, what set me thinking runs as follows - off the top of my head, Ince, Keane, Zola would all be very inexperienced managers. Adams has a bit more. I may have left out one or two, but apologies if I have.

The concept of the manager has changed a lot over the past decade as English football has been forced to modernise. Coaching staffs, physios, etc are all of a much higher standard compared to the state of affairs a decade ago. And of course, one of the biggest changes has been to the role of manager.

The wording's crucial - in most sports there's a coach, in England you have managers. Transfers, tactics, etc all come under the manager's purview. In some respects it's much to heavy a burden. For that reason the continent has often utilised a different methodology - involving directors of football etc. For every highly publicised failure of that framework in England (Chelsea, Spurs, etc) it remains de rigeur in many football powers.

Given what some might call the excessive demands placed upon a managers intellectual capacity, enthusiasm and stamina, it's understandable why in other countries they attempt to lessen the managers burden. Although in ENgland this is traditionally seen as undermining his authority, and potentially foreign and/or homosexual as a result.

Are these demands preventing a new generation of managers coming through? Currently England are coached by an Italian. As are Ireland. Now I'd be of the opinion that the best coach you can get is the candidate for the job, irregardless of anything else, but why is one of football's oldest and most important nation's not able to produce a world class manager? The best managers in teh English game of late have all learned their trade elsewhere - Ferguson in Scotland, Benitez in Spain, Mourinho ironically enough with an English manager in Portugal and Spain, Scolari in Brazil.

Where could and should English managers learn? Would it have made more sense for Keane, Ince et al to have served long apprenticeships as Assistant Managers before being hurled into the deep end? Is the entire nature of management in England dooming future managers to too much pressure to soon leading to unbearable pressure ruining them? GIven that almost all of our talented players end up in England, it effects where we'll get future managers from too.

Burial

It's a number of factors, as to why top managers aren't English. I'll do my best to explain.

Recently, UEFA made it mandatory for all managers to have a UEFA pro A licence to manage at top tier. The FA approved and the premiership association approved also, however they are only bringing it in, in 2010 (I believe). Any new managers hired from 2007 or so has to have the licence though you can apply for a temp licence. The FA aren't pushing managers to get this licence, especially in the lower leagues. (It's a requirement for European football) So when a new team comes up from the the championship, to the Premier, they have to get a special temporary licence for their manager, (Or what the current FA are doing is giving managers a full licence in a summer when it should take 2-5 years) After the temporary licence expires, they are supposed to get another one. (During the year they are supposed to go get the licence, but managers rarely do, as they hardly stay in their job that long)

Now abroad, it's mandadtory for ALL managers to have this licence. If you don't have this licence, you can't manage a club. So a low leagued Croatian team can't be managed by lowly English leagued manager. So there already is a huge pool of talented and skilled workers abroad with the better qualifications and similar experiences to their English counter-parts.

These managers (Keane, etc.) are inexperienced, but they have been managed by the best. They know what players went through on the pitch and off. They wouldn't have the same tactical depth, but they do know from their previous managers what to do. They are also popular with fans instantly, and provide cheap enough labour. If these "inexperienced" managers got their experience, they would be great managers. (Tell me a great manager that wasn't a player)

As for too much to do for managers, thats why they have assistants, coachs, scouts, etc, etc. I'm not saying a managers job is easy, and I'm not saying it's as hard as you describe. It's only hard on the manager if he doesn't know what he's doing. Which is why they should have the relevant experience/skills in the first place.

You can hardly say that English football has unrealistic expectations. Look at Mouriniho. The last manager won everything but the CL at Inter and he was sacked. Scolari knows he has to deliver with Chelsea, and is given vast amounts of money, players to achieve this aim. If Ireland made it mandatory for all to have the UEFA pro A licence, then we would have alot more managers competeing on a level playing field.

Ferguson, Benitez, Mourinho all succeeded in their clubs in different leagues. After they came here they were given the job of top tier clubs. If Sunderland hired Wenger tomorrow, I'd highly doubt that he would be expected to win the CL next season. You only get high expectations from a rich owner, and a club whose reputation sets the standard that high. Every manager knows what they are going into when they take up any job.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Are these demands preventing a new generation of managers coming through? Currently England are coached by an Italian. As are Ireland. Now I'd be of the opinion that the best coach you can get is the candidate for the job, irregardless of anything else, but why is one of football's oldest and most important nation's not able to produce a world class manager?

As I see it, no. A new generation isn't being stopped coming in. Maybe to the top 4 Premiership clubs, but leagues lower down it's mostly English managers. Ireland were coached by other Irish managers previously, to little or no success. These current managers of Ireland and England are argueably the best people for the job.

Finally, I'll leave you with this. Do you consider just the nationalities the problem, or where they got their "world-class manager" title? Look at Hull F.C. They have an English manager who are in the top half of the PL. Not bad for a club just starting in the PL. Noone would call him World class but he's still producing some excellent results. To be a world class manager you need to win a CL or WC or European Championship or PL. And to do that you need to be at a top club or make the team into a top club. What nation did Ferguson, Benetiz, Wenger, Mouriniho and others get their World Class status from management?

*NOTE*

Granted you could argue they were hired on their ability as World Class managers beforehand. Like Mouriniho, winning the CL with Porto. However, their reputation as world class came/was cemented from managing those clubs in England.

anonymous_joe

Good response.

Regarding importance of nationality - I would suggest that you'd expect the number of managers in a league to be reasonably close to teh proportions of players in the league.

One brief point, Wenger, Mourinho and Benitez were all quite average players. Scolari too if I'm not mistaken. Ferguson was always hailed as a talented player who never quite got the luck he deserved. In fact, I can't think of too many top players who made it as managers.

I'd also point out that only Wenger and Ferguson made their names in England, Benitez and Mourinho proved themselves elsewhere.

Burial

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Good response.

Thanks!

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Regarding importance of nationality - I would suggest that you'd expect the number of managers in a league to be reasonably close to teh proportions of players in the league.

I don't really understand what you mean by this. Are you saying if there are x players in a league, there should be y managers? There are only as many managers/players in a league as there are teams/clubs...

anonymous_joe wrote: »

One brief point, Wenger, Mourinho and Benitez were all quite average players. Scolari too if I'm not mistaken. Ferguson was always hailed as a talented player who never quite got the luck he deserved. In fact, I can't think of too many top players who made it as managers.

I can't think of any myself...

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I'd also point out that only Wenger and Ferguson made their names in England, Benitez and Mourinho proved themselves elsewhere.

Yes, but Benitez is remembered more for his CL glory with Liverpool rather then in Spain. He'd be classed as a World-Class manager when he was with Liverpool. Mourinho was regarded as a World class manager by winning the CL with Porto, but with Chelsea, he was made into one of the best managers in the game. With Inter I highly doubt he'd be regarded any higher...