The Birth Certificate

wolfpawnat

Ok I went to my antenatal appointment today and I was introduced to a lot of the hospital staff (all of whom are lovely I may add), but something one of the social workers said to me actually scared me.

I don't know is this better off on a legal page or what but can I ask the other unmarried mothers a question, were ye allowed put the dads name on the birth cert details or did ye actually have to wait til the day ye were collecting the birth cert. Also how did ye go about making dad a legal guardian too???:)

All help appreciated btw. Thanks:)

January

I think if the father is present at the time of the signing then he can be added then, but if he is not, and you are unmarried he has to be added when you are there... not sure though...

I found this... http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/birth-family-relationships/after-your-baby-is-born/registering_birth_your_baby

hope it helps...

embee

If you are unmarried and you want your childs fathers name on the birth certificate, then he has to be present with you when you register the birth - you will both require photo ID. This is also the case if you are applying for a passport for your child (if he isn't a legal guardian - an unmarried mother is the sole guardian of her child/children unless you get a Statutory Declaration naming you both as legal guardians. If you are applying for a passport for the child it involves a trip to a Garda station too - again, both have to be present if the father does not have legal guardian status.

Kildrought

If you are applying for a passport for the child it involves a trip to a Garda station too - again, both have to be present if the father does not have legal guardian status.

I'm a bit confused about your wording there so may have read it wrongly. If father is not a legal guardian, mother can sign an affidavit to that effect when applying for a passport; father's consent is not required if he is not a guardian.

bored and tired

you are correct Kildroght, if a father has no legal guardianship rights, the mother can get an affidavit saying that she is the sole legal guardian in order to apply for a passport. the affidavit needs to be signed by a commisoner of oaths (for the peace) and he needs to know the woman or be introduced to her by someone they both know. the passport office can and will check the validity of such affidavits.

Re the birth cert if you are unmarried than both parents need to be their to sign the birth cert to put the fathers name on it. this does not give gim automatic guardianship however.

wolfpawnat

its so annoying, I mean I dont mind doing the paperwork, thankfully, though I know I'll be exhausted I will have plenty of time for paperwork after the baby is born. I am just upset that we cant go, this is what I want done, so do it.
My poor boyfriend is terrified that I could run away with his baby and he would never get to see it. I dont want him to feel like that. Sorry to everyone I am merely venting! Damn Irish legal system (please note if I didnt have a good relationship with the dad I would prob be venting he has too much of a say:D)
I wish we could just get it all sorted, I have an appointment with the hospital social worker in the morning, I hopefully will get it sorted then!

partyguinness

You dont have to put the fathers name on the Birth cert straight away...but it can be done several years later if say, the parents decide to stay together...

Believe it or not..it makes things easier not to put the fathers name on the Birth Cert straight away...passport etc, changing names by deed poll, guardianship...

wolfpawnat

But I want his name on the birth cert and I want him to get joint guardianship of his child. He has as much right to be an official role in the baby's life too. I am giving it his surname and I want all official documents to help that.

The Corinthian

wolfpawnat wrote: »

But I want his name on the birth cert and I want him to get joint guardianship of his child. He has as much right to be an official role in the baby's life too. I am giving it his surname and I want all official documents to help that.

What does the father want?

wolfpawnat

Yes, I should have put that in too, he wants the same, he wants his name on the birth cert and he wants joint legal guardianship too. He actually took the ews worse than I did when I told him. He immediately demanded we got onto a solicitor or something, he does not want what very little rights he does have as a father taken away from him just because we are not married

January

Unfortunately even if his name is on the birth cert he has very little rights anyway.

wolfpawnat

I know, we have to get it done through legal means outside of the hospital. it is so annoying, just because we are not married. We have an appointment in the morning to discuss all our concerns with the social worker, so hopefully we can get the paperwork now to start the ball rolling. this is a bit more than what i need at 32 weeks:)

The Corinthian

Very admirable point of view, IMHO.

Guardianship, surname and recognition on the birth cert don't give a Hell of a lot in terms of rights to the father. The latter two give absolutely no rights, and the vast majority of the rights theoretically afforded by guardianship are unenforceable or can be overruled.

However, the one thing that it does afford is that if something happens to the mother (death, permanent incapacitation, etc.), the father will get custody, otherwise it'll go to the mother's next of kin and this can sometimes be messy.

Other than this, and not to be devalued, is that it gives recognition to the father - that he is a father rather than an ATM. As such it can reinforce the father-child bond and mend a lot of bridges that may have been damaged in the relationship between the parents, while denying it just sends the message that the father is only a father when it suits the mother (i.e. an ATM) and thus will have the opposite effect.

As for sorting this all out, I suggest you get the birth cert done at the hospital together and guardianship can be sorted out as has been suggested a few weeks later. Lots of paperwork, a few fees, but at least it only has to be done the once.

metrovelvet

I dont know wolfpawnat. I was told they mean nothing in terms of rights. I offered both to my son's father and he rejected both guardianship and his name on the birthcert on the grounds they gave him nothing.

But it is still good for the child to have his father's name on the birthcert and for his father to have whatever rights you can give him. I dont think its that hard to do. You will have to problem. Don't worry about it and congratulations to all of you.

I will also add that when you travel alone with your babs or chilld, customs officials are entitled to ask you for a letter from the other parent. If you show a birthcert with no name on it, they assume you are sole custodian and no such letter is required. I myself have never been asked, but I know of people who have been. Not that you really need to worry about this, just thought Id throw it in.

nesf

My name was put on my son's birth cert even though we were unmarried at the time, but I was present when it was being drawn up. I've no idea about whether it could have been done if I was not there. Having their name on a birth cert does not give the father any rights as a guardian though.

You'll have to sort out joint custody separately unfortunately. That's just how the system works at the moment I'm afraid.

Nevyn

Unmarried parents must both present themelves with photo id to fill out the forms and sign the register for both of them to be on the birth cert, if this is not done the the birth will be unregistered.

The forms for guardianship can be downloaded and printed off and then filled out and signed in front of and then signed and stamped by a commissioner of oaths.

It is wonderful to see that you wish to do this with the dad of your child to be as a matter of course instead of as part of horse trading for other things.

My co parent and I went and registered both our children together and he is on both birthcerts, I have given him the forums for guardianship twice and he said he can't be arsed. /shrug in any case it is down in my will that my kids go to my sister and her husband as they are nominated.

The Corinthian

Thaedydal wrote: »

It is wonderful to see that you wish to do this with the dad of your child to be as a matter of course instead of as part of horse trading for other things.

Indeed, its not unheard of to have it offered with a hefty price tag attached - and if the father refuses on this basis, he becomes the villain.

Personally, I believe that outside of the question of what happens to the child or children should something happen to the mother, the value of guardianship in legal terms is very, very limited. What is more important is that the parents have an amicable or cooperative relationship, if so guardianship is rarely an issue.

Nevyn

It comes into play with medial decisions as well.

metrovelvet

^And religious and educational.

Nevyn

metrovelvet wrote: »

^And religious and educational.

It can do but only if the custodial parent (be they male or female ) isn't being an ass and is allowing the other co parent (be they male or female ) to have the input into the child's life with out strings attached or with out the non custodial parent having to resort to the courts about every decision regarding the child's education ect which is petty, demeaning and takes up time and resources.

This also means the non custodial co parent had to not be an ass in using such things to make a misery of their co parents life but trying to use it to assert control over their co parent and thus a make a mockery of the system.

Shít happens, relationships fail or never get off the ground it would be nice to think that the parents who are grown ups can learn to get over themselves and compromise for the sake of the child who never asked to be born.

Some people are just too selfish and yes holding on to anger, entitlement and grudges cos life didn't work out they way you hoped and planned is imho selfish esp when it is impacting on a child.

metrovelvet

Thaedydal wrote: »

It can do but only if the custodial parent (be they male or female ) isn't being an ass and is allowing the other co parent (be they male or female ) to have the input into the child's life with out strings attached or with out the non custodial parent having to resort to the courts about every decision regarding the child's education ect which is petty, demeaning and takes up time and resources.

This also means the non custodial co parent had to not be an ass in using such things to make a misery of their co parents life but trying to use it to assert control over their co parent and thus a make a mockery of the system.

Shít happens, relationships fail or never get off the ground it would be nice to think that the parents who are grown ups can learn to get over themselves and compromise for the sake of the child who never asked to be born.

Some people are just too selfish and yes holding on to anger, entitlement and grudges cos life didn't work out they way you hoped and planned is imho selfish esp when it is impacting on a child.

Right. But with guardianship, if its has been repeatedly proven that the custodial parent excluded the other parent from such decisions, it could help build a case in the future for any custodial battles, so even if there doesnt appear to be an immediate benefit to it, it could benefit in the longer term should such a dispute arise.

Furthermore, you have used the term co-parent, someone actively involved in their child's life. A very wise point to re-emphasise here as this does not apply to absent parents who may or may not have guardianship.

Nevyn

metrovelvet wrote: »

Right. But with guardianship, if its has been repeatedly proven that the custodial parent excluded the other parent from such decisions, it could help build a case in the future for any custodial battles, so even if there doesnt appear to be an immediate benefit to it, it could benefit in the longer term should such a dispute arise.

Not every co parent want to fight that bitter battle and I can understand why.

metrovelvet wrote: »

Furthermore, you have used the term co-parent, someone actively involved in their child's life. A very wise point to re-emphasise here as this does not apply to absent parents who may or may not have guardianship.

I don't mean it in that way at all, you are trying to put your own spin on it.
You were already warned about using this forum to push your own agenda and to needle others,
if this persists then your access to these forums will have to be reviewed.
So please stop dragging this thread further off topic.

metrovelvet

What do you mean? Co-parenting as far as I understand it means both parents are raising their child[ren.]

Not every co parent want to fight that bitter battle and I can understand why.

No, not every one does, that is true. But you never know what can happen in the future, that is all I am saying. If the custodial parent dies, turns to drugs, turns out to be a child abuser, decides to leave the country, etc etc. It just helps your case that's all.

Nevyn

Courts will if possible grand guardianship and custody to the non custodial parent if the custodial is proven to be unfit rather then see the child enter the care system.

metrovelvet

Thaedydal wrote: »

Courts will if possible grand guardianship and custody to the non custodial parent if the custodial is proven to be unfit rather then see the child enter the care system.

Yes if the non custodial parent has rights. Otherwise the child goes to the maternal grandparents.

Nevyn

Those rights can be awarded by the courts when a crises arises.

GerardKeating

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Ok I went to my antenatal appointment today and I was introduced to a lot of the hospital staff (all of whom are lovely I may add), but something one of the social workers said to me actually scared me.

I don't know is this better off on a legal page or what but can I ask the other unmarried mothers a question, were ye allowed put the dads name on the birth cert details or did ye actually have to wait til the day ye were collecting the birth cert. Also how did ye go about making dad a legal guardian too???:)

All help appreciated btw. Thanks:)

The father has to be present if you want to include his name on the birth cert, but this should not be a big problem, just arrange a time that suits both of you, but (other than having to be present) there is no restriction on puting the fathers name on the Birth cert.

And you have basically 4 choices with surname for the baby,

1. Motherss surname
2. Father's Surname
3. Both Surnames (Mother-Father)
4. A unique different surname

We went with option 3 and our son has a hyphenated combination of both our surnames.

The registrar will accept the first 3 options with out question, but maybe question option 4 if it is a bit strange.

lostinnappies

Im sorry, Im confused.... maybe i missed something.

Why wouldnt he be present at the birth of your child? Why wouldnt he be present for the signing of the birth cert anyway?

Birth certs are done in the Hospital now (galway anyway) and you usually have it before you leave if you're there for 2/3 days.

Even if he is not on the birthcert ... wouldnt a paternity test deam him to be the biological father of this child and as such have a right to some custody.

littlebug

lostinnappies wrote: »

Im sorry, Im confused.... maybe i missed something.

Why wouldnt he be present at the birth of your child? Why wouldnt he be present for the signing of the birth cert anyway?

Birth certs are done in the Hospital now (galway anyway) and you usually have it before you leave if you're there for 2/3 days.

Even if he is not on the birthcert ... wouldnt a paternity test deam him to be the biological father of this child and as such have a right to some custody.

L-I-N did you not have to go in to the Community care offices to get the birth cert? Maybe it's all changed now or it's because mine was born at the weekend. I recall filling in a form in the hospital with all the details but only getting the cert when I went in to complete the details (and pay etc). If it's the same wherever the OP is I'm assuming the case is that both of them would have to be there when the cert is being issued in order to get his name on it. if you're married it isn't the case.... his name will be on it whether he's present for the cert being issued or not.

GerardKeating

lostinnappies wrote: »

Im sorry, Im confused.... maybe i missed something.

Why wouldnt he be present at the birth of your child? Why wouldnt he be present for the signing of the birth cert anyway?

He could refuse in theory.

lostinnappies wrote: »

Even if he is not on the birthcert ... wouldnt a paternity test deam him to be the biological father of this child and as such have a right to some custody.

Unmarried father have little or no rights, except those that the mother (or a court) grants to him.

Even married fathers who seperate from the mother can find their rights are not so secure.

lostinnappies

littlebug wrote: »

L-I-N did you not have to go in to the Community care offices to get the birth cert? Maybe it's all changed now or it's because mine was born at the weekend. I recall filling in a form in the hospital with all the details but only getting the cert when I went in to complete the details (and pay etc). If it's the same wherever the OP is I'm assuming the case is that both of them would have to be there when the cert is being issued in order to get his name on it. if you're married it isn't the case.... his name will be on it whether he's present for the cert being issued or not.

Maybe it was different for me cos i had a section and was in there longer but my cert was done through the hospital they even dropped it to the relevent community care office and we paid in advance... now we are married so that may have made some difference He was born on a wed too.