Bohs to Scrap Youth Development

BrookieD

Today i learned,despite agreements to the contrary,and without prior knowledge,the Board have dispensed with the services of the Youth Development Officer Richard Sutherland.This was done when he went to the bank and simply wasn't paid.The Hon Sec wasn't even going to tell him.
This renders the underage structure inoperational,and this was made clear to the Board some time ago.
This will be dressed up as some sort of cost-cutting excercise publicly-it is not.
The Board of this Club do not care about it's schoolboys.They do not care about the kids that ae in the youth set up.They do not care about the future.They do not care about this Club.
The Hon Sec rang me last week to ask me where the schoolboys played and how to get there.
The PRO,in an e-mail told me the schoolboys weren't a priority in the context of the 1st teams issues.

Richard has tried his best,in the face of being undermined by the Board,employees and other hanger-ons to advance as best he could.
I intend to continue to fight for our schoolboys.

As a parent of a 5 year old whom is included in this set up i am outraged that a club that has won the double can do this to there youth members.

I now have a very upset player on my hands with no way forward after being told the youth system here was the best in Ireland.

I post this publicly as it is a public disgrace.:mad:

dodgey69

Its time for board members to step down at bohs after this latest fiasco. The club had made huge strides under both Richard and robbie and now the board 'pen pushers' seem happy to see all the hard work over the last 2 years go out the window.

Absolute disgrace.

Draupnir

Schoolboy football in Dalymount was screwed a long time before this, around the time that the club turned "professional" in about 1997/1998. Kids who were already a part of the schoolboy teams turfed out, "top" youth coaches brought in and kids from far and wide and all over Ireland turning up to take the place of local kids.

GuanYin

The national league association should withhold all development money and grants from the club if they do such things.

Apart from the fact that development of a competitive league must be from the grassroots up (even the MLS know this), it seems like commercial suicide to alienate loyal school boy fans.

bohsman

Id be amazed if the board arent gone by the end of January.

Big thread about it here http://thebohs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9305

pablomakaveli

These kind of actions will only damage irish football. Any decent club knows a youth set up is important.

Draupnir

Football in Ireland has never been driven from LOI club schoolboy sections and I don't think it ever will be, people need to realise that most LOI clubs didn't even have schoolboy teams prior to about 1999/2000.

The big clubs were then taken over and incorporated by LOI clubs, Rovers took over Tallaght Town, Shels took over a very random southside schoolboy club that I can't put my finger on! (Could have been Templeogue United or similar).

Schoolboy football has always been driven by specifically schoolboy and junior orientated clubs (Belvedere, Cherry Orchard, Stella Maris, Tolka Rovers, Lourdes Celtic, Manortown), I am not as aware of the situation in Cork. All of these clubs have produced Ireland's top talented for the most part.

Bohs were the first LOI club in Dublin to have a schoolboy setup that I am aware of, although the schoolboy setup was it's own entity until the mid to late nineties when it was amalgamated. The only way forward is for LOI clubs to establish schoolboy centres of excellence and sign players up on YTS style schemes, this has been tried in a very half hearted way by LOI clubs in the past, including Bohs, but has never been given 100% commitment. Until that happens, I can never see LOI clubs producing very much of their own talent and certainly not at an ability level to advance the league.

With the LOI suffering such economic trouble right now, who can blame clubs for not investing the necessary funds in youth setups. No sense wasting money that will go nowhere in my opinion, I do however disagree with the underhand tactics being mentioned with regard to sacking people.

CiaranC

Bohs have absolutely imploded in the last two weeks. What was glaringly obvious to myself, ONYD and others on here has come to pass, despite Bohs fans on here telling us otherwise. The issues over there are too numerous to list, all the while the folks of this members owned club were playing fancy dress and singing 'we are invincible' while their board have gone flat out to steer the club into oblivion. Its a shambles. I almost feel sorry for them.

dreamers75

Draupnir wrote: »

Football in Ireland has never been driven from LOI club schoolboy sections and I don't think it ever will be, people need to realise that most LOI clubs didn't even have schoolboy teams prior to about 1999/2000.

100% spot on, youths are an after thought for LOI clubs.

Draupnir wrote: »

Schoolboy football has always been driven by specifically schoolboy and junior orientated clubs (Belvedere, Cherry Orchard, Stella Maris, Tolka Rovers, Lourdes Celtic, Manortown), I am not as aware of the situation in Cork. All of these clubs have produced Ireland's top talented for the most part.

Shels stole/took/signed the entire Cherry Orchard side that Stokes played for, the above schoolboys dont create players they steal them from lower clubs and pass them off as their own. Similiar to Arsenal and Man Utds super youth system :rolleyes:. Which means they can steal any kid they want, all the big dublin schoolboys being doing it for years. Then try get them en masse over to england.

Doubt any LOI team will ever catch up with the above teams, they have superb facilities Crumlin etc: LOI clubs dont look beyond their 1st team.

CiaranC

dreamers75 wrote: »

Doubt any LOI team will ever catch up with the above teams, they have superb facilities Crumlin etc: LOI clubs dont look beyond their 1st team.

Shamrock Rovers top scorer last season, Padraig Amond, came up through the youth system. Things are changing for the better.

Nalz

Jesus Christ can the situation at Bohs get any worse. I do hope they pull out of this, for alot of the fans and the leagues sake.

CiaranC wrote: »

Shamrock Rovers top scorer last season, Padraig Amond, came up through the youth system. Things are changing for the better.

A Carlow man too, learnt his stuff on the eh "streets" of Leighlin. He has great potential.

stovelid

bohsman wrote: »

Id be amazed if the board arent gone by the end of January.

The genuine, committed members need to get those clowns out.

bohsman

The tide has turned, I was 100% convinced they were gone till their last spin of the dice, apparently Jim Roddy has been appointed as CEO. Hopefully the members see past that bit of spin, while a great appointment its far too little too late.

SectionF

stovelid wrote: »

The genuine, committed members need to get those clowns out.

Efforts are ongoing. They've lost the plot, but they are very good at petty politics and at holding on to power.

Draupnir

dreamers75 wrote: »

100% spot on, youths are an after thought for LOI clubs.





Shels stole/took/signed the entire Cherry Orchard side that Stokes played for, the above schoolboys dont create players they steal them from lower clubs and pass them off as their own. Similiar to Arsenal and Man Utds super youth system :rolleyes:. Which means they can steal any kid they want, all the big dublin schoolboys being doing it for years. Then try get them en masse over to england.

Doubt any LOI team will ever catch up with the above teams, they have superb facilities Crumlin etc: LOI clubs dont look beyond their 1st team.

I 100% agree with you, most of the big schoolboy teams I talked about do their own form of scouting by stealing the best u8 and u9 players from other lesser clubs anyway. But the fact is they do that better than the LOI clubs ever have even tried to.

I didn't know about Shels and Cherry Orchard, the setup of the likes of Cherry Orchard, Crumlin, Lourdes and Belvo really is amazing though when you consider these clubs are run by volunteers and play their games out of public parks. It really proves the point that LOI clubs are missing out on a huge untapped pool of players.

Draupnir

CiaranC wrote: »

Shamrock Rovers top scorer last season, Padraig Amond, came up through the youth system. Things are changing for the better.

Things are definitely not getting better, Shamrock Rovers schoolboy set up used to be Tallaght Town as I've already said. Renaming an already successful schoolboy set up as your own is not the solution and never will be.

LOI clubs are too narrow minded in regard to youth teams, I was a schoolboy at Bohs and they turned our floodlit training pitch into a car park! (In the shed end corner, it's still a car park.)

bohsman

Draupnir wrote: »

LOI clubs are too narrow minded in regard to youth teams, I was a schoolboy at Bohs and they turned our floodlit training pitch into a car park! (In the shed end corner, it's still a car park.)

I also trained there, calling it a pitch is a bit of a stretch. I never saw a blade of grass. The move to DCU was a fantastic innitiative and hopefully it can be salvaged.

Draupnir

bohsman wrote: »

I also trained there, calling it a pitch is a bit of a stretch. I never saw a blade of grass. The move to DCU was a fantastic innitiative and hopefully it can be salvaged.

Well it definitely wasn't a great "pitch" and there wasn't much grass (we called it Dollymount at times) but it was done away with a good 7/8 years before the move to DCU and at the time it was taken away, my u14 team were left with nowhere to train in the winter time.

It was just a case of the parent club not looking after the schoolboy section. Just to point out, at least 6 of that u14 team ended up playing professional football in England and Bohs got zero income from any of them.

SectionF

Draupnir wrote: »

Schoolboy football has always been driven by specifically schoolboy and junior orientated clubs (Belvedere, Cherry Orchard, Stella Maris, Tolka Rovers, Lourdes Celtic, Manortown), I am not as aware of the situation in Cork. All of these clubs have produced Ireland's top talented for the most part.

Have to take issue with that. Much of the talent coming out of those clubs has been cannibalised from other clubs. For example, while I'm sure it works the other way, I've seen Lourdes openly plunder a Bohs team.
In general, the schoolboy scene, at least in Dublin, is a shark-infested mess, with managers putting their own egos and club finances first, and the kids who just want to play football coming last in the priorities. Even within the 'big' schoolboy clubs, players are head-hunted and remaining squads decimated and even broken up.
Great for feeding the occasional star to the production lines for English football; great for feeding the delusions of manically-obsessed parents; worse than useless for developing players generally or for fostering the long-term future of the game at home.
Of course there are many decent, well-intentioned youth coaches, especially at less competitive levels, but this is the main dynamic shaping life for kids in the top leagues.

_blank_

Trilla wrote: »

Jesus Christ can the situation at Bohs get any worse. I do hope they pull out of this, for alot of the fans and the leagues sake..

the league doesn't "need" Bohs.

CiaranC

Draupnir wrote: »

Things are definitely not getting better, Shamrock Rovers schoolboy set up used to be Tallaght Town as I've already said. Renaming an already successful schoolboy set up as your own is not the solution and never will be.

Why is it not the solution? Would it have been better to setup up in opposition to the major club in Tallaght and poach all their players and managers, fostering rivalry and resentment in a community we are trying to put down roots in?

Draupnir

SectionF wrote: »

Have to take issue with that. Much of the talent coming out of those clubs has been cannibalised from other clubs. For example, while I'm sure it works the other way, I've seen Lourdes openly plunder a Bohs team.
In general, the schoolboy scene, at least in Dublin, is a shark-infested mess, with managers putting their own egos and club finances first, and the kids who just want to play football coming last in the priorities. Even within the 'big' schoolboy clubs, players are head-hunted and remaining squads decimated and even broken up.
Great for feeding the occasional star to the production lines for English football; great for feeding the delusions of manically-obsessed parents; worse than useless for developing players generally or for fostering the long-term future of the game at home.
Of course there are many decent, well-intentioned youth coaches, especially at less competitive levels, but this is the main dynamic shaping life for kids in the top leagues.

I think you've missed a couple of posts later in the topic where myself and another user said the same thing as you have above. The big schoolboy clubs do plunder the smaller ones, that is well known fact. I wasn't saying that the big schoolboy clubs are great, don't get me wrong.

My point is just that if the LOI clubs could organise themselves to do this "plundering" and provide better options than going to England for the many kids who get rejected then I think LOI football could improve drastically.

Draupnir

CiaranC wrote: »

Why is it not the solution? Would it have been better to setup up in opposition to the major club in Tallaght and poach all their players and managers?

It's not the solution because it is masking the underlying problem and doesn't keep the best players in the league, which should be the ultimate goal. The solution is for the LOI clubs to have their own youth set ups were top schoolboy players can go if they have a chance of making it, take up full time education whilst they train and basically start on the road to a career as a pro footballer in Ireland.

The idea of a LOI running an entire schoolboy section of it's own doesn't really make much sense, it would be better to leave schoolboy football to schoolboy clubs. They are better at it then pro clubs.

SectionF

Draupnir wrote: »

My point is just that if the LOI clubs could organise themselves to do this "plundering" and provide better options than going to England for the many kids who get rejected then I think LOI football could improve drastically.

Definitely agree with that. That was the direction in which the Youth Director, Robbie Loughlin, had been taking the club before people started playing politics with his section. He and Richard Sutherland had been making great strides: hopefully he can get things back on track.

Draupnir

SectionF wrote: »

Definitely agree with that. That was the direction in which the Youth Director, Robbie Loughlin, had been taking the club before people started playing politics with his section. He and Richard Sutherland had been making great strides: hopefully he can get things back on track.

I hope so too, in fairness to Bohs, they've always been forward enough thinking with the schoolboy and youth set ups.

CiaranC

Draupnir wrote: »

It's not the solution because it is masking the underlying problem and doesn't keep the best players in the league, which should be the ultimate goal. The solution is for the LOI clubs to have their own youth set ups were top schoolboy players can go if they have a chance of making it, take up full time education whilst they train and basically start on the road to a career as a pro footballer in Ireland.

The idea of a LOI running an entire schoolboy section of it's own doesn't really make much sense, it would be better to leave schoolboy football to schoolboy clubs. They are better at it then pro clubs.

You seem to be pretty well up on this, Its been a long time since I was involved with schoolboy soccer. Im not sure I follow you though. On the one hand you are saying that we shouldnt have a schoolboy setup, and on the other you are saying that we should poach players from elsewhere to our youth setup. Do you suggest a youth setup without any competitive teams or what?

Also, we have a schoolboy academy, local area trials, teams in the milk cup, teams in the Dallas cup in the USA, futsal, Soccer Superstar Challenge, teams from u7 to u18, the u20 squad with a scholarship program to Tallaght IT, the scholarship programme in St. Aidans in Brookfield, Tallaght, the carolan park facilty and have two of our best players, Amond and Murphy who came through the youth setup. This year we received nominations in four of the six South Dublin Chamber Business in the Community Awards 2008 categories – Youth Work, Community Development, Sports and Education. We won the Sports category.

Sounds OK to me...? What would you do different?

Nalz

Des wrote: »

the league doesn't "need" Bohs.

eh why Des?

Its another bad issue in the media and it reflects strongly on the league. Thats another harsh and somewhat silly remark. Bohs have been a big club and its great to have rivarly present between them and Rovers (Shels and Pats to a lesser extent). Surely if you put you biased views aside for two minutes and realize that its another sad story for the league and for alot of Eircom league fans.

Draupnir

CiaranC wrote: »

You seem to be pretty well up on this, Its been a long time since I was involved with schoolboy soccer. Im not sure I follow you though. On the one hand you are saying that we shouldnt have a schoolboy setup, and on the other you are saying that we should poach players from elsewhere to our youth setup. Do you suggest a youth setup without any competitive teams or what?

Also, we have a schoolboy academy, local area trials, teams in the milk cup, teams in the Dallas cup in the USA, futsal, Soccer Superstar Challenge, teams from u7 to u18, the u20 squad with a scholarship program to Tallaght IT, the scholarship programme in St. Aidans in Brookfield, Tallaght, the carolan park facilty and have two of our best players, Amond and Murphy who came through the youth setup. This year we received nominations in four of the six South Dublin Chamber Business in the Community Awards 2008 categories – Youth Work, Community Development, Sports and Education. We won the Sports category.

Sounds OK to me...? What would you do different?

Great community work from Rovers and they do have a very good set up in that sense. In the sense of feeding top level footballers to the LOI clubs I don't think it is ideal.

What I would like to see is for a number of LOI clubs to have underage teams of trainee footballers rather than schoolboys. These trainee teams could play competitively while the schoolboy clubs could be separate entities and go about their own work as they already do to a great standard.

The LOI clubs could then focus more resources on the players who have potential and could actually make it as pro's. Resources could be pumped into coaching and education, which might well encourage more and more young players to stay in Ireland and would also save cash that is being spent on large schoolboy sections already.

I'm thinking of this purely from a business and footballer development point of view, not the community aspect of it.

_blank_

Trilla wrote: »

eh why Des?

The league doesn't "need" Bohs in the same way it didn't need Shels two years ago.

There are other teams.

Bohemian football Club is not indespensible, much as you lot like to crow about being the "Big Club".

Trilla wrote: »

Its another bad issue in the media and it reflects strongly on the league. Thats another harsh and somewhat silly remark.

Yes it reflects badly, I agree.

Harsh? Maybe.

Silly? Prove me wrong.

Trilla wrote: »

Bohs have been a big club

When?

stovelid

Trilla wrote: »

eh why Des?
.

Because that's what a lot of people say when their club is in trouble, but it means nothing when they themselves are gloating at another club's misfortune (cf: Rovers, Shels).

Basically, you don't bend the rules and crow about your land deals/BIG CLUB STATUS/the best_team_since_four_in_a_row, all season without getting up everybody's noses. I would never wish it on any fan for their club to disappear - even Bohs - but the league won't die if Bohs are relegated.

I don't recall the premier league stopping and waiting for Rovers or Shels. Or anybody else caring.

Nalz

Look lads, from a leagues perspective....anyone that knows little or doesnt watch the league much comments on the situation like so:

"See Bohs are in trouble, money wise, only after winning the league. Heard they cheated or tried to sell land twice. Or somethin like that. Now the youth development is gone"

That sort of comment will follow

"Good old League of Ireland, what a farce it is - hasnt this happened before with Shels? Why would anyone waste their time with this league if half the clubs break the rules etc"

Now I get your point. I understand. You break the rules you should be punished. But I hope that something can be worked out and that the league wont be looked upon as a complete farce. Also, for the genuine people of Bohemian football club and the players, who paid good money on a Friday night to watch their favourites play.

To some alot of this was unaware, to others it was but could do nothing about it and then there is the few that turned a blind eye I know.

I'd rather see it resolved by any other means, as I would with any other club. You do remember that I'm a newbie when it comes to supporting the league, and when I moved to the northside 2 years ago Bohs became my local team so I took an interest. So I dont have a blatent biased view. I dont "hate" any teams or use words like "scum" and that "shower of c'unts" etc to describe other clubs. I just love football and I hope it can be resolved differently.

CiaranC

Trilla wrote: »

Look lads, from a leagues perspective....anyone that knows little or doesnt watch the league much comments on the situation like so:

Who gives a **** about what the barstoolers think, tbh.

The situation should be resolved by instituting rules and then ensuring they are followed and not whitewashed just because a team at the top of the table decided to act the maggot.

_blank_

Trilla wrote: »

Now I get your point. I understand. You break the rules you should be punished. But I hope that something can be worked out and that the league wont be looked upon as a complete farce.

The only farce here is that it looks like equal punishments are not being handed out in a fair manner.

The same punishment for breaking the same rules.

It's the only it can be.

In your model, we allow teams to get away with what the likes of Bohs, Drogs, Shels, Cork and other clubs have done. People take a look at this and say "ah shure, them teams do whatever the hell they like, why should I support that".

The problem here is, Trilla, is that clubs are not sitting up and taking notice of the faults others have made before them, making the same mistakes, breaking the same rules, and expecting to get away with it by exploiting loopholes.

Until the FAI stand up, with a backbone, and tackle these issues, instead of issuing propaganda statements about the state of the league and it's clubs.

I swear to god, this league is crumbling around us, but the FAI seem to think all is rosey in the garden, as far as I can see.

Trilla wrote: »

Also, for the genuine people of Bohemian football club and the players, who paid good money on a Friday night to watch their favourites play.

I know how you feel, genuinely I do, it was a horrible facing from '06 to '07 not knowing what was happening to my club. But punishment WAS deserved.

And punishment IS deserved in these cases this year. Like it or not. Attempting to sweep it under the carpet is a nonsense, those times have, thankfully, passed.

Why should we pretend there are no problems just to please people who's only interest in this league is somewhere between slating it when it's down to slagging it off in an uninformed foolish way?

Fúck them all. I don't care if some Sky Sports watcher says the likes of:

"See Bohs are in trouble, money wise, only after winning the league. Heard they cheated or tried to sell land twice. Or somethin like that. Now the youth development is gone"

or

"Good old League of Ireland, what a farce it is - hasnt this happened before with Shels? Why would anyone waste their time with this league if half the clubs break the rules etc"

They haven't got a damn clue what this league has been through over the past ten or twenty years. And you know what, they don't give a shiney shíte either, and they never will. They roll out excuse after excuse, year after year, as to why they don't or won't support the national league. Only very few people, like your good self, and fúcking fair play to you, I mean that, ever actually go to see a match, and keep going, and become exactly what this league needs.

So no. We paint no pictures for these folks, we make no allowances. We made this mess ourselves, they aren't interested in helping us out of it, so we'll get out of it ourselves. However long it takes.

Trilla wrote: »

I dont "hate" any teams or use words like "scum" and that "shower of c'unts" etc to describe other clubs.

Give it time mate

Trilla wrote: »

I just love football and I hope it can be resolved differently.

It can't be resolved differently. It must not be resolved differently.

The FAI needs to take an exceptionally firm stance on this, for once and for all, send a message to the clubs, "fúck around with the rules and we'll fúck around with you"

The funny thing is Trilla, in two, three and four years time, it will be me and you posting this exact same rant toward someone else.

Trust me on that.

You know why?

The FAI will do exactly what you are proposing now, and fúck all will change, and the league will still be a laughing stock.

CiaranC

Great post Des.

Trilla, I know you are relatively new to the scene and havent been ground down to the level of bitter, twisted cynic like the rest of us (its coming, believe me, and you will be calling other fans 'a bunch of *****' when you are through the other side of this nightmare your club is in ) but you have to realise that the likes of your average muppet 'football fan' in ireland are NEVER, EVER going to come riding in on white horses to save the league.

Nor are the FAI going to do anything.

Its up to us, the fans, to take our clubs in hand and guide them to stability.

Thats why the Bohs situation is so depressing, its a members club, and the membership ignored what was going on.

dreamers75

Draupnir wrote: »

It's not the solution because it is masking the underlying problem and doesn't keep the best players in the league, which should be the ultimate goal. The solution is for the LOI clubs to have their own youth set ups were top schoolboy players can go if they have a chance of making it, take up full time education whilst they train and basically start on the road to a career as a pro footballer in Ireland.

The idea of a LOI running an entire schoolboy section of it's own doesn't really make much sense, it would be better to leave schoolboy football to schoolboy clubs. They are better at it then pro clubs.

Draupnir i agree with almost everything you have said but :

No it shouldnt the LOI clubs should be creating footballers much like the UK do with their clubs, where they go to ply their trade as professional footballers is irrelevant as if its in the LOI Wahay!! great player came tru the clubs system now plays for the team or Wahay!! great player came tru the system and was sold/moved to X in X league.

LOI needs to overtake the current schoolboy system but its unpossible due to the leverage these clubs have at selling meat to the UK. LOI needs to create footballers doesnt matter where they end up once they end up playing professional football and are coached to the highest level by preofessional PAID coaches. Most schoolboys have preofessional coaches i do not agree with their methods as they have a bottom line every U16/u17 coach has to get some of them to england otherwise hes a failure.

The great UK/LOI debate rears its ugly head here on this issue, these coaches know they are judged on how many go to england on the meat train, not how many come back on the guinness train.*

LOI clubs need facilites all the schoolboy clubs in Dublin have. A few people have made a lot of money sending meat to england, the volunteers at these clubs dont see any of this money but it exists. Again just another reason i hate the schoolboy system in Dublin.

* LOI needs these players to keep playing football at a pro level, thats the 2nd catchment for the LOI, they need to be playing at a high level to get back to the UK/Europe and LOI needs to provide that base. Assuming every player sold to reading or other in the last 2 years from the LOI was in the UK previously?

The bottom line is when these players go away to the UK there must be a professional league for them to come back too, i would bet €100 every dublin poster in this forum knows at least 1 lad who was ****ing magic at football and went to UK and came back due to being a pisshead/homesick/wrong person/wrong club etc etc etc. The LOI needs to be able to offer these players fulltime football give them a base for a 2nd crack at a higher level.

Granted the LOI has made strides in europe but thats due to teams having almost 11 players who played at some stage in the UK.


/balls having read the rest of the thread your original point and my retort have gone way off topic