Guns, Germs & Steel - Jared Diamond

Passenger

Just reading this at the moment.

To sum it up it's pretty much an account of the Eurasian civilations and societies that have emerged and how and why they have survived over the past 10,000 - 15,000 years.

Diamond argues that European/Asian civilistaions developed not from human ingenuity but out of a chain of developments such as the invention and subsequent spread of agriculture in the early hunter-gatherer societies. The development of agriculture in turn lead to the domestication of animals such as cattle and various crops such as wheat and barley. All of this had a knock-on effect which lead to developments in the specialization of labour and thus there being ruling classes and a bureaucratic establishment and an emergence of powerful empires that colonised various parts of the world that were not as advanced as they were.

He also presents that most of humanity's achievements such as scientific, artistic, and political have all occurred on the Eurasian continent, while the peoples of other continents such as Africans, Native Americans, and Aboriginal Australians etc. have been largely conquered and/or subjugated by people from Europe and Asia.

Thoroughly provocative stuff, has anybody had the pleasure of reading Diamond's book? He also wrote The Third Chimpanzee and Collapse which I have yet to read but really look forward to.

r3nu4l

Passenger wrote: »

Diamond argues that European/Asian civilistaions developed not from human ingenuity but out of a chain of developments such as the invention and subsequent spread of agriculture...

This all depends on how you look at 'human ingenuity'. To my mind, whomever first began practicing and refining agriculture was pretty ingenious! That's more than just some sort of 'development'. It took trial and error...in other words, an early version of the scientific method.

I''m not sure I really buy into these ideas, I'd have to read the whole book before making a judgment but I already have an argument against the idea presented here.

EDIT: I like reading about human development pre-history so I might see if I can get this from a library.

Irish Halo

I have to agree with r3nu4l, how is humans developing things (agriculture, domestication of animals, specialisation of labour) not human ingenuity?

The evolution from hunter gatherer to modern society wasn't written down or planned by some early human/proto human in some time BC but who thought that was what happened?

Passenger

Ok, using 'ingenuity' was a careless paraphrasing of Diamond on my behalf. Diamond claims civilistaions developed not from sheer will or intelligence but out of a chain of developments each made possible by certain preconditions.

r3nu4l

Okay, well unfortunately much of pre-history (by definition) is not recorded. However, if we look back even 2-3000 years, we see lots of evidence of ingenious thinking, including abstract mathematics.

It's not hard to imagine that if people were thinking like this 3000 years ago, they may have been thinking like this 4000 years ago and if they were thinking like that 4000 years ago, perhaps they were thinking like that 6000 years ago...and so on.

I firmly believe that many of these 'developments' were calculated rather than stumbled across. Even those that were stumbled across were recognised for what they were harnessed, utilised and progressed (as was penicillin!) to their full extent. Again, that signifies a scientific mindset rather than accidental plodding along as each development happens.

Again, I've not read enough of this book to really understand the full extent of the argument but that's my opinion on what's been said so far

Good point for discussion Passenger!

silverharp

I think the OP might have slightly misstated the case. Discovery or the history channel is running a series about it at the moment and he makes the point that for instance natives in new Guinnea are every bit as clever in dealing with their environment as EurAsians were in pre history. the missing ingredient was the natural resouces available to some societies. For instance very few animals can be domesticated for work, EurAsia had horses which could be tamed , Pre history civilizations in Africa or South America did not have this advantage. Climate was an important factor as well, EurAsia has a large landmass on an east west axis and a temperate climate which allowed crops like wheat to develop, again other areas did not have this advantage.

Svenolsen

Passenger wrote: »

Diamond claims civilistaions developed not from sheer will or intelligence but out of a chain of developments each made possible by certain preconditions.

That is a classical "half truth".

The "chain of development is itself a result of "sheer will or intelligence".

(Coupled with luck,fortune,misfortune,guesswork,sheer genius,stupidity, bloody-mindedness,warfare etc.etc...... ad infinitum.)

Of course a lone farmer in County Kerry cannot build a machine to get to Mars.

The whole of science is a slow progression of "bricks being piled one upon the other" by..."sheer will or intelligence.".

To coin a phrase:

"Rome wasn't built in a day."

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DapperGent

I don't know how sheer will or intelligence is supposed to give you domesticated draught animals or efficient domesticated crops when you're a hunter-gatherer and the raw material for such is across an ocean.

Svenolsen

DapperGent wrote: »

I don't know how sheer will or intelligence is supposed to give you domesticated draught animals or efficient domesticated crops when you're a hunter-gatherer and the raw material for such is across an ocean.

You use your sheer will and intelligence to build a boat....then catch the cattle....then sow the crops.

(Me Einstein for figuring that tough one out.)

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silverharp

Svenolsen wrote: »

You use your sheer will and intelligence to build a boat....then catch the cattle....then sow the crops.

(Me Einstein for figuring that tough one out.)

.

I think you are missing the point

elpresdentde

from my understanding at whats Jared getting at. in order for people to advance to any level of civilisation then they must be able to provide enough food to feed themselves before they can start thinking about harnessing that cow for food or labour. which means that the crops they are growing need to provide for farmers needs. for example jared makes the point that crops like grain can be stored for long periods of time. where as some of the crops availible in parts of of the world provide sustenance but cant be stored without rotting very quickly. this puts the civilization under more presure as they cant build up food reserves and are stuck at the botton of the civilasation ladder.

Passenger

Appearantly Guns, Germs & Steel the TV Documentary presented by Jared Diamond himself is being broadcast tonight on E4.

https://www.tiscali.co.uk/tv/shows/details/guns-germs-and-steel/

Guns, Germs and Steel
Summary
Documentary series revealing how power and influence spread across the world. Examining how a small band of conquistadors annihilated an Incan army of 80,000 warriors.
Airs Next
More4, 22/02/2009 1:10am (130 mins).

Not too sure if it's being repeated.