Dead men DO bleed! : On debating with theists.

oeb

Some days I find myself getting very frustrated when discussing religion with people (either in life, or online). I'm sure theists feel the same, something they see as so obvious, just gets rejected out of hand by someone else because it does not fit with their world view (however correct or incorrect it may be). But I read a story online a few days ago that sums it up, and I thought I would share it with you. I can't find my oridginal source, so this is phrased from memory.

A doctor is treating a patient in a mental hospital. This particular man is convinced that he is dead. He still walks around, talks and breathes, but nothing anyone can say will convince him he is in fact alive. During a session, the doctor tries a new approach.
"Can a dead man bleed?"
"Of course not!" answers the man.

Without a word, the doctor reaches out with a pin he had conceled and jabs the man in the finger. A drop of blood quickly forms on the wound.

"Ouch" cries the man "Wow! I can't believe how wrong I was!" he states, "Dead men CAN bleed!"

Does anyone else feel the same frustration? I see threads, like the ones on evolution for example, where some of the posters are just so WRONG that I think they must be trolling, or just taking the piss, but regardless of if they are or not, there is actually people out there who believe this. No amount of conventional science, or clear evidence will convince them otherwise.

Nodin

oeb wrote: »

Does anyone else feel the same frustration? I see threads, like the ones on evolution for example, where some of the posters are just so WRONG that I think they must be trolling, or just taking the piss, but regardless of if they are or not, there is actually people out there who believe this. No amount of conventional science, or clear evidence will convince them otherwise.

You'll find that after a certain time, its best to walk away.....

One of the first encounters I had with a 'fundamentalist', (6 or 7 years ago now), ended with the discussion getting to dating methods. "Aha", sez I to meself, like an eejit, "I have him now" and listed the commonly known ones (radio carbon, tree rings, pottery, context) being no expert. He dismissed them out of hand, and then in detail. "he can't do that!!!" thinks I. Yes, in fact he and they shagging can.

You can point out the holes in their plot, their selective quoting and the rest, but when it gets down to the very core, you can't win, in the sense that some "true believer" is going to round and admit that they're wrong. Be content to know that you've made them come out with various statements that a fair minded person would see as illogical or contradictory. It's like the middle east, which I endlessly debate elsewhere. A 'win' for me there would be when somebody suddenly tries to justify their political position by the Bible, after being refuted on 'real world' issues. You know you've hit the bullseye.

midlandsmissus

Tell me about it.

I do feel like that. but it's different for me.

I don't feel like I'm coming on here to sway people's views and getting frustrated that they're not being swayed. I never set out to do that.

It's when I talk about myself at all, it's having to defend yourself over and over again that gets to me.

It's strange....I used to be an atheist, and now I cant even remember what it was like....

CerebralCortex

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Tell me about it.

I do feel like that. but it's different for me.

I don't feel like I'm coming on here to sway people's views and getting frustrated that they're not being swayed. I never set out to do that.

It's when I talk about myself at all, it's having to defend yourself over and over again that gets to me.

It's strange....I used to be an atheist, and now I cant even remember what it was like....

That is a very strange concept to get to grips with mlm. The path that brought me to atheism, having been raised a Catholic, means that regardless of whether a god exists that is responsible for our creation or that when I'm older I might find comfort in religion, I will never be able to see it as the truth. I apologise but I got a hint of insincerity about the actual nature of your atheism in comparison to the atheists on here. Let me ask you if you truly were an atheist how did you switch all the way to Christianity? Its a fairly large jump. You say you are tired of having to defend yourself then why say something like that which is marked in bold?

midlandsmissus

CerebralCortex wrote: »

That is a very strange concept to get to grips with mlm. The path that brought me to atheism, having been raised a Catholic, means that regardless of whether a god exists that is responsible for our creation or that when I'm older I might find comfort in religion, I will never be able to see it as the truth. I apologise but I got a hint of insincerity about the actual natural of your atheism in comparison to the atheists on here. Let me ask you if you truly were an atheist how did you switch all the way to Christianity? Its a fairly large jump. You say you are tired of having to defend yourself then why say something like that which is marked in bold?

Hi Cerebralcortex,

No, thats a justified question that you asked me. I don't mean defending myself as in answering people's courteous questions. It's others on this board (the same few) who just really grind you down and berate you if you say any opinion.
e.g. I say "I am fine with this....," they say "well you cant be fine with that because your religon says ."....im like "but i dont agree with that bit, because that's more the catholic church's teaching than I feel was originally intended" they say "well how can you call yourself a christian" and eventually always to "you're contradicting yourself", and i'm like GRRR! its just impossible to argue with them because there's always something in christianity that i'm not complying with and then they see my argument as invalid. That's what really frustrates me, becuase it is impossible to comply with everything.

In answer to your question, I dont know how else I can say I was an atheist. I mean how can you be insincere about that, how can you be more atheist than the next person?

I didnt believe in God, I questioned everything, I was opposed to religion, I argued my case with people. I was that way for a long itme. I have a more detailed post about my transition on the christianity board, but lets just say a lot of strange things happened to me which first brought me to being an agnostic, and then to being a christian.

Let me ask you if you truly were an atheist how did you switch all the way to Christianity? I'm not the first person to do this, surely it cant seem that inconceivable to you?

Rev Hellfire

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I got a hint of insincerity about the actual natural of your atheism in comparison to the atheists on here.

And thus the great inter-atheist wars begin...

Zombrex

midlandsmissus wrote: »

It's when I talk about myself at all, it's having to defend yourself over and over again that gets to me.

I imagine the thread you are referring to was the thread about how you used to be an atheist and have now found religion.

I do think the responses were a bit unfair to you, the claim that you weren't really an atheist, and also that these responses made atheism out to be something more than I feel it is.

I think your thread got peoples back up because often "I was an atheist but now I see the light" type stories are used in a sort of propaganda battle to demonstrate that atheism is ultimately unnatural and irrational. Though in fairness atheists often use the "I once believed but now I don't" stories themselves to support atheism.

Both sides seem to respond with the "but you weren't really were you" claims.

It is often said that Christians who are now atheists weren't really Christians because they didn't have Jesus' love and spirit in them, if they did they would never question if Jesus actually existed or not.

Likewise atheists post with bewilderment when someone says that they now believe in God, asking how could someone disregard all the logic and reason behind the atheist position and start accepting personal experience as some how meaning something significant enough to believe in supernatural deities.

Ultimately both arguments come down to the idea of other people defining what you were, often for the purposes of then attacking you, so I can perfectly understand why it would annoy someone.

CerebralCortex

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

And thus the great inter-atheist wars begin...

Not at all I'm not implying there is one way to be atheist or anything I just find it hard to imagine an atheist converting back to a very specific form of belief/religion. When it comes to religion I think it can be as helpful as it is dangerous it all depends on the practitioner.

Mlm I sincerely hope I'm not one of those abrasive atheists I may have been in the past but its not what I aspire to. Thanx for the reply.

eoin5

I get frustrated with believers usually when they come out with ignorant statements like religion does more good than harm or that because so many people are doing it it has to be true.

That stuff irks me!

An Fear Aniar

midlandsmissus wrote: »

It's strange....I used to be an atheist, and now I cant even remember what it was like....

Yeah, me too. I used to be an atheist but now God is in my life and it's wonderful. I'm not a Christian though, and I'm not signed up for any religion, I dislike religion, too much certitude. Jesus never wrote a book, did he?


.

Dave!

Just his memoir, Jesus: A Life.

pH

oeb wrote: »

Does anyone else feel the same frustration? I see threads, like the ones on evolution for example, where some of the posters are just so WRONG that I think they must be trolling, or just taking the piss, but regardless of if they are or not, there is actually people out there who believe this. No amount of conventional science, or clear evidence will convince them otherwise.

Is this necessarily a theist or religious thing? Most of us have things we hold true or believe that no amount of logical debate could ever or would ever shift.

Imagine how frustrated a classical music aficionado would be in a logical discussion with a metal head. By any logical objective analysis, most would agree that Mozart's music is better than some random metal band, but we all know that no amount of logic or debate could ever change that fan's mind.

There's a saying something along the lines "You can't use reason and logic to get someone to change their view if they didn't use reason and logic to establish that view". That goes for heavy metal fans (not picking on them, football fans, ABBA fans etc etc) and theists alike I think.

It's possibly why you shouldn't be using reason and logic in these debates/discussions - it's not going to work, why not try ridicule and emotional appeals instead? - they just might work.

Mark Hamill

oeb wrote: »

Some days I find myself getting very frustrated when discussing religion with people (either in life, or online). I'm sure theists feel the same, something they see as so obvious, just gets rejected out of hand by someone else because it does not fit with their world view (however correct or incorrect it may be). But I read a story online a few days ago that sums it up, and I thought I would share it with you. I can't find my oridginal source, so this is phrased from memory.

A doctor is treating a patient in a mental hospital. This particular man is convinced that he is dead. He still walks around, talks and breathes, but nothing anyone can say will convince him he is in fact alive. During a session, the doctor tries a new approach.
"Can a dead man bleed?"
"Of course not!" answers the man.

Without a word, the doctor reaches out with a pin he had conceled and jabs the man in the finger. A drop of blood quickly forms on the wound.

"Ouch" cries the man "Wow! I can't believe how wrong I was!" he states, "Dead men CAN bleed!"

Should have buried him, then problem solved for everyone.

aidan24326

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

Yeah, me too. I used to be an atheist but now God is in my life and it's wonderful. I'm not a Christian though, and I'm not signed up for any religion, I dislike religion, too much certitude. Jesus never wrote a book, did he?

But shorn of religious rituals, prayer, going to mass, observing religious customs, following doctrine etc, what exactly is left? In what way is god in your life?

CerebralCortex

aidan24326 wrote: »

But shorn of religious rituals, prayer, going to mass, observing religious customs, following doctrine etc, what exactly is left? In what way is god in your life?

Careful the western man will just use the dreaded dot on you.


.

midlandsmissus

Wicknight wrote: »

I imagine the thread you are referring to was the thread about how you used to be an atheist and have now found religion.

I do think the responses were a bit unfair to you, the claim that you weren't really an atheist, and also that these responses made atheism out to be something more than I feel it is.

I think your thread got peoples back up because often "I was an atheist but now I see the light" type stories are used in a sort of propaganda battle to demonstrate that atheism is ultimately unnatural and irrational. Though in fairness atheists often use the "I once believed but now I don't" stories themselves to support atheism.

Both sides seem to respond with the "but you weren't really were you" claims.

It is often said that Christians who are now atheists weren't really Christians because they didn't have Jesus' love and spirit in them, if they did they would never question if Jesus actually existed or not.

Likewise atheists post with bewilderment when someone says that they now believe in God, asking how could someone disregard all the logic and reason behind the atheist position and start accepting personal experience as some how meaning something significant enough to believe in supernatural deities.

Ultimately both arguments come down to the idea of other people defining what you were, often for the purposes of then attacking you, so I can perfectly understand why it would annoy someone.

Hi wicknight,

Thank you for a very interesting reply. I understand to an extent that an atheist could find it hard to believe that some-one like them could turn to religion. Because it is such a complete shift of mentality. It is possible though, because I know I was at the complete other end of the spectrum and I have had a radical change of thinking.

"how could someone disregard all the logic and reason behind the atheist position and start accepting personal experience as some how meaning something significant enough to believe in supernatural deities."

I understand this point of view. But if you consider that we are living on a globe suspended in space which a) can't go on for infinity and b) can't not go on for infinty, alot of things don't make that much sense. What is space? It cant have boundaries and yet it can't not have boundaries. That seems stranger to me than our souls leaving our bodies when we die and going to a higher plane.

CerebralCortex

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Hi wicknight,

Thank you for a very interesting reply. I understand to an extent that an atheist could find it hard to believe that some-one like them could turn to religion. Because it is such a complete shift of mentality. It is possible though, because I know I was at the complete other end of the spectrum and I have had a radical change of thinking.

"how could someone disregard all the logic and reason behind the atheist position and start accepting personal experience as some how meaning something significant enough to believe in supernatural deities."

I understand this point of view. But if you consider that we are living on a globe suspended in space which a) can't go on for infinity and b) can't not go on for infinty, alot of things don't make that much sense. What is space? It cant have boundaries and yet it can't not have boundaries. That seems stranger to me than our souls leaving our bodies when we die and going to a higher plane.

Souls(which is really just conciousness) that can go on for an infinity? Souls that were created by an entity that is infinite yet has human emotions?

As Carl Sagan put it aptly:
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

An Fear Aniar

Dave! wrote: »

Just his memoir, Jesus: A Life.

"How I saved the world and why I wish I hadn't bothered" by JH Christ.


.

midlandsmissus

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Souls(which is really just conciousness) that can go on for an infinity? Souls that were created by an entity that is infinite yet has human emotions?

As Carl Sagan put it aptly:
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

Souls(which is really just conciousness) that can go on for an infinity? Souls that were created by an entity that is infinite yet has human emotions?

How is that stranger than space going on for infinity?

oeb

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Souls(which is really just conciousness) that can go on for an infinity? Souls that were created by an entity that is infinite yet has human emotions?

How is that stranger than space going on for infinity?

Space does not go on for infinity. It's getting bigger all the time.

midlandsmissus

oeb wrote: »

Space does not go on for infinity. It's getting bigger all the time.

Right it doesn't go on for infinity. Where are the edges then.

Copied this from wikipedia to back me up!

The concept of space is considered to be of fundamental importance to an understanding of the universe although disagreement continues between philosophers over whether it is itself an entity, a relationship between entities, or part of a conceptual framework.

Nobody has understood space yet. It therefore doesnt seem to me any less strange than there being a god.

Dave!

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Nobody has understood space yet. It therefore doesnt seem to me any less strange than there being a god.

Why does it have to be one or the other for you?

Couldn't it be, the universe is constantly expanding..... or....... we don't understand it yet.

See? No need for god there

It's just like this:

knowledgeknowledgeknowledge| *gap in knowledge* |knowledgeknowledgeknowledgeknowledge

as opposed to

knowledgeknowledgeknowledge| *god* |knowledgeknowledgeknowledgeknowledge

midlandsmissus

Dave! wrote: »

Why does it have to be one or the other for you?

Couldn't it be, the universe is constantly expanding..... or....... we don't understand it yet.

See? No need for god there

It's just like this:

knowledgeknowledgeknowledge| *gap in knowledge* |knowledgeknowledgeknowledgeknowledge

as opposed to

knowledgeknowledgeknowledge| *god* |knowledgeknowledgeknowledgeknowledge

Because Wicknight origiinally said this to me

how could someone disregard all the logic and reason behind the atheist position and start accepting personal experience as some how meaning something significant enough to believe in supernatural deities."

and I'm saying, how is believing in a supernatural deity stranger than believing we are on a globe suspended in space that cant possibly be either infinite or finite.

Because that's what I personally find strange. There's nothing stranger than life!

oeb

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Because Wicknight origiinally said this to me

how could someone disregard all the logic and reason behind the atheist position and start accepting personal experience as some how meaning something significant enough to believe in supernatural deities."

and I'm saying, how is believing in a supernatural deity stranger than believing we are on a globe suspended in space that cant possibly be either infinite or finite.

Because that's what I personally find strange. There's nothing stranger than life!

See one of the problems with the position of Theists is what's known as 'The God of the Gaps'. We do not say space is finite, or infinite, we take the evidence that we have, and we make an educated guess. What's more, then we keep on gathering evidence, and keep on trying to find out as much as possible. A theist (like yourself) seems happy to simply say "God did it" and leave it at that.

CerebralCortex

I think we need desperately need to get away from this idea of "stranger". For a start I don't think the idea of god is strange I think its simplistic as I've said countless times its just an anthropomorphism of lack of undersatnding(at least evidence leads me to believe that) and its very personal, religion being a manipulation of that process. Strange to me is cool what is strange to me though and I think this is where the confusion came from is that someone would outsource their quest for truth to religion as opposed to science, engineering, philosophy whatever etc. The reason for your existence is all of a sudden just a god who will condemn those who do not worship him (I don't think you believe that) or who made a complete universe vastly greater than our needs just to so he could trial run our ability to be as gracious as he (which is nonsense considering "he" is infinite).

midlandsmissus

oeb wrote: »

See one of the problems with the position of Theists is what's known as 'The God of the Gaps'. We do not say space is finite, or infinite, we take the evidence that we have, and we make an educated guess. What's more, then we keep on gathering evidence, and keep on trying to find out as much as possible. A theist (like yourself) seems happy to simply say "God did it" and leave it at that.

A theist (like yourself) seems happy to simply say "God did it" and leave it at that

Dear Oeb,

Please dont ever assume I say anything, and please don't bunch all theists together. That is a specific kind of ignorance I don't like.
I personally believe in God because of numerous unusual things that happened to me pyschologically and physically. I don't know everything about christianity, and I am reading up on it. I personally think as the bible was written by man, it is not all correct. It is more about your own personal relationship with god.
So em, you're wrong I dont go round saying "la la la God did it" and leave it at that. Just because you're a christian doesn't mean you can't have an analytical mind.

CerebralCortex

midlandsmissus wrote: »

A theist (like yourself) seems happy to simply say "God did it" and leave it at that

Dear Oeb,

Please dont ever assume I say anything, and please don't bunch all theists together. That is a specific kind of ignorance I don't like.
I personally believe in God because of numerous unusual things that happened to me pyschologically and physically. I don't know everything about christianity, and I am reading up on it. I personally think as the bible was written by man, it is not all correct. It is more about your own personal relationship with god.
So em, you're wrong I dont go round saying "la la la God did it" and leave it at that. Just because you're a christian doesn't mean you can't have an analytical mind.

I really don't see how you can be offended by what Oeb said, it has been said on this forum many times I thought you'd come to expect that phrase? I'm curious if you had the above experiences in lets say Tokyo do you think you'd be now researching Shinto? I can understand the belief in god maybe as far as deism like Eintsein but to go all the way to believing christianity is the one is beyond my faculties(for want of a better term).

On the analytical thinking comment, in terms of the nature of the existence of the universe being of any religious persuasion means you never need to have an analytical mind. What think you ?

In fact you now cleary have what you believe to be the truth, the way and the life, why go any further?

Disclaimer: these are all sincere questions, with no mal intent, following the fact that you are in the AA forum I think it fair for me to ask them and willingly concede you the right to ignore them.

oeb

midlandsmissus wrote: »

A theist (like yourself) seems happy to simply say "God did it" and leave it at that

Dear Oeb,

Please dont ever assume I say anything, and please don't bunch all theists together. That is a specific kind of ignorance I don't like.
I personally believe in God because of numerous unusual things that happened to me pyschologically and physically. I don't know everything about christianity, and I am reading up on it. I personally think as the bible was written by man, it is not all correct. It is more about your own personal relationship with god.
So em, you're wrong I dont go round saying "la la la God did it" and leave it at that. Just because you're a christian doesn't mean you can't have an analytical mind.

Clarify your point then.

We do not understand 'space' != There is a god.

midlandsmissus

oeb wrote: »

Clarify your point then.

We do not understand 'space' != There is a god.

That's not what I said. i said: there are alot of things that dont make sense in the world, therefore it is not that illogical to me to believe in a deity.(combined with my experiences of course)

midlandsmissus

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I really don't see how you can be offended by what Oeb said, it has been said on this forum many times I thought you'd come to expect that phrase? I'm curious if you had the above experiences in lets say Tokyo do you think you'd be now researching Shinto? I can understand the belief in god maybe as far as deism like Eintsein but to go all the way to believing christianity is the one is beyond my faculties(for want of a better term).

On the analytical thinking comment, in terms of the nature of the existence of the universe being of any religious persuasion means you never need to have an analytical mind. What think you ?

In fact you now cleary have what you believe to be the truth, the way and the life, why go any further?

Disclaimer: these are all sincere questions, with no mal intent, following the fact that you are in the AA forum I think it fair for me to ask them and willingly concede you the right to ignore them.

He said "all christians do this'. and 'all christians say this'. I hate being grouped. How would you like it if I said 'all atheists are a bunch of pr*cks'! i'll get back to the rest of your comment later, as i have to get off...

oeb

midlandsmissus wrote: »

He said "all christians do this'. and 'all christians say this'. I hate being grouped. How would you like it if I said 'all atheists are a bunch of pr*cks'! i'll get back to the rest of your comment later, as i have to get off...

Well no, I called you a theist, and I stated theists always seem to be making that claim (Which in my opinion you made), and then I went off in a rant about why the 'god of the gaps' argument is pure junk.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

That's not what I said. i said: there are alot of things that dont make sense in the world, therefore it is not that illogical to me to believe in a deity.(combined with my experiences of course)

So, let me get this straight. Your point is that because the evidence that is out there, and our current understanding of it, does not completely satisfy you : That this makes a perfectly good case for god? Would that be correct?

A lack of evidence for one theory, is not a substitution for evidence for another.

Now, would you like to explain to me exactly why it is logical to believe in a deity?