Our constitution and the EU

Steviemak

Should Ireland amend its constitution to ensure that the State retains its full sovereignty/competence on matters related to life and family law, defence policy, taxation law except indirect taxes linked to the functioning of the EU's internal market?

Interesting article on this point in today's Times.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/1210/1228849742023.html

Steviemak

I don't think the Dail ratifying the Lisbon Treaty on the basis of this change to the constitution will fly but it would certainly allay the fears of the masses before any new referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. Or it could be done at the same time.

ChocolateSauce

Since EU law already takes precedence over our constitution if ours is in breach of fundamental rights, an amendment wouldn't do any good if the aim is to stop abortion, which is a right in the eyes of every member state except us, Poland and Malta. Only the legally binding declarations, which we already have, will stop the EU making abortion legal here.

Scofflaw

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Since EU law already takes precedence over our constitution if ours is in breach of fundamental rights, an amendment wouldn't do any good if the aim is to stop abortion, which is a right in the eyes of every member state except us, Poland and Malta. Only the legally binding declarations, which we already have, will stop the EU making abortion legal here.

It's not accurate to say that EU law takes precedence over our Constitution. It is exempt from challenge on the basis of our Constitution, but not superior to it.

Further, while the EU, through the ECJ, could determine that abortion is a service, the EU does not determine whether a service is legal or not. It can only determine that where a service is legal, it must be treated the same across the common market. Were this not the case, you would be able to to buy drugs in Dublin cafés - legally, that is - since the sale of drugs as in Amsterdam is undoubtedly a service as per common market rules.

cordially,
Scofflaw

sink

Scofflaw wrote: »

It's not accurate to say that EU law takes precedence over our Constitution. It is exempt from challenge on the basis of our Constitution, but not superior to it.

Further, while the EU, through the ECJ, could determine that abortion is a service, the EU does not determine whether a service is legal or not. It can only determine that where a service is legal, it must be treated the same across the common market. Were this not the case, you would be able to to buy drugs in Dublin cafés - legally, that is - since the sale of drugs as in Amsterdam is undoubtedly a service as per common market rules.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I can see the 'No' campaign for lisbon II latching on to this and declaring lisbon will legalise cannabis.

thebman

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Since EU law already takes precedence over our constitution if ours is in breach of fundamental rights, an amendment wouldn't do any good if the aim is to stop abortion, which is a right in the eyes of every member state except us, Poland and Malta. Only the legally binding declarations, which we already have, will stop the EU making abortion legal here.

We'd be better off making it legal and then regulating it so it only occurs in circumstances where the majority of people think it is okay to have an abortion such as rape cases etc... At least then we'd have some control over it. As it is, abortion in Ireland is governed by British law essentially as people just go there to have an abortion. Classic Ireland solution to an issue really, you can't do it here but we have no problems with you going somewhere else to do it and coming back afterwards. Half-a**ed solution to this issue.

Personally I wish Lisbon would force us to make abortion legal but I don't think it does. Anyway if your against abortion and its legal in other states doesn't that make them mass murderers in your eyes? In which case, why would you want to be in any kind of community or relationship with those people?

Seems a lot of people that think abortion is murder think its fine to do business with people/countries that in their eyes commit mass murder.

This thread will probably descend into madness now that abortion has been brought up. Mods can delete this post if they feel it'll provoke too much but I think the point of debating how you can do business with people who you disagree with completely on matters such as abortion is an important debate to have although maybe I need my own thread for that issue

oscarBravo

I'm not going to delete the post, but I am going to make it clear right now that if anyone tries to turn this thread into a debate on abortion, they will be banned, and there will be no further warnings.

Steviemak

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm not going to delete the post, but I am going to make it clear right now that if anyone tries to turn this thread into a debate on abortion, they will be banned, and there will be no further warnings.

The debate I was hoping for was around provisions in our constitution and how they would stand up to EU law. But I guess just like the Lisbon debate it gets dragged into the gutter by scaremongering.

oscarBravo

I think Scofflaw's post (#4) makes the position quite clear.

thebman

Steviemak wrote: »

The debate I was hoping for was around provisions in our constitution and how they would stand up to EU law. But I guess just like the Lisbon debate it gets dragged into the gutter by scaremongering.

That's fine.

I think we shouldn't be required to do anything like that though.

The EU should respect our wishes and if we have strong objections to something listen to us same as they would any other member in the union.

I think they do that. They are listening (or at least trying to) listen to why we voted no and trying to arrive at a solution to the problem that will keep everyone happy.

They haven't tried to be fascists so far so i don't see any reason to suspect it will happen in future.

They have tried to please everyone and frankly I've been impressed with how they have even tried to come with solutions to please the Irish on the issues that weren't real issues but were just propoganda by Libertas.

It doesn't really serve much purpose to upset other member states as the more friends you have in the EU, the more weight you have. This is why people said us voting no has damaged us in Europe I imagine.

Steviemak

I always understood it that any country can leave the EU at anytime. Therefore if the EU goes down a particular route we can leave. Although the EU has so far been very positive in my view. And i don't see this changing under Lisbon.

oscarBravo

Steviemak wrote: »

I always understood it that any country can leave the EU at anytime.

There has never been a formal mechanism for this to happen. Lisbon introduces just such a mechanism.

ChocolateSauce

sink wrote: »

I can see the 'No' campaign for lisbon II latching on to this and declaring lisbon will legalise cannabis.

If only :rolleyes:

Ok, to debate...I think EU law should take precedence over our constitution. I found the sadly defunct EU constitution to be a superior document to ours. It was more modern, promised more freedom and was simpler. There hasn't been a single ECJ decision which I have issue with, and indeed the EU has forced Ireland to give women equal rights, for example. It has dragged Ireland kicking and screaming into the 21st century, and all for the better. One can only hope the EU someday forces certain member states to respect all human rights and make them promise equality for all.

On another note, I find it almost offensive to my sensibilities that anyone would accuse the EU of being fascist. It was created by 6 countries which had been reduced to rubble by fascism, and with the express intent of ensuring fascism never happened again. Fascism saw Britain, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Italy, Poland, Denmark, The Czech republic, Slovakia, Romania, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Greece, Hungary and Malta all dragged into the war, with some of them being leveled to nearly nothing. Spain and Portugal also had fascist dictatorships. Considering these countries represent the vast majority of the states and population of the EU, I don't think fascism is on its agenda. Further, I find accusations of fascism rich coming from a country which was virtually a fiefdom of the catholic church until 20 years ago.

turgon

Steviemak wrote: »

life and family law

No, because the Irish electorate is by and large a bunch of catholic conservative bigots, who for some reason think that a 15 year old girl, with two social welfare supported wasters, should be legally obliged to have her kid even though both the kid and the mother are ****ed from the word go.

The Irish electorate should be given the least amount of power over themselves as possible, which is one of the good things about the EU.

O'Morris

turgon wrote: »

The Irish electorate should be given the least amount of power over themselves as possible, which is one of the good things about the EU.

Irish people are less intelligent on average than people from other European countries. Our average IQ (see here) is down at the bottom of the EU. It probably would make sense for us to hand over power to people from countries where the average level of intelligence is higher than our own. I would still have a very strong emotional attachment to the idea of us holding onto our national sovereignty though.

Scofflaw

O'Morris wrote: »

Irish people are less intelligent on average than people from other European countries. Our average IQ (see here) is down at the bottom of the EU. It probably would make sense for us to hand over power to people from countries where the average level of intelligence is higher than our own. I would still have a very strong emotional attachment to the idea of us holding onto our national sovereignty though.

I wouldn't agree at all. Intelligence is unrelated to political persuasion, or to social conservatism. Some highly intelligent people have also been bigots, racists, homophobes - and Catholics, of course.

The government failed to explain to the Irish electorate why it wanted them to allow it to ratify Lisbon. Unsurprisingly, the electorate withheld their permission. Nothing stupid about it.

Mind you, I suspect you're not serious.

cordially,
Scofflaw

O'Morris

Scofflaw wrote: »

Mind you, I suspect you're not serious.

I am totally serious. I'm still opposed to us handing over any more of our sovereignty to the EU even though I think there might be good reasons for us to hand over that sovereignty.

Scofflaw

O'Morris wrote: »

I am totally serious. I'm still opposed to us handing over any more of our sovereignty to the EU even though I think there might be good reasons for us to hand over that sovereignty.

Oh, well. In that case I'll have to hand you over to thehighground for a serious beating for disrespect of the electorate.

I think I know what you mean - we'll make mistakes, but they'll be our mistakes?

cordially (apart from the beating, obviously),
Scofflaw

Dob74

O'Morris wrote: »

Irish people are less intelligent on average than people from other European countries. Our average IQ (see here) is down at the bottom of the EU. It probably would make sense for us to hand over power to people from countries where the average level of intelligence is higher than our own. I would still have a very strong emotional attachment to the idea of us holding onto our national sovereignty though.

I dont think anyone could actually take that IQ book seriously. The article above states clearly that the test is not proven science. Only two controversial academic's opinions.
I am sorry to see so many irish with self loathing tendencies. If you want an abortion go to England its not that far.
I voted No because I do want to give too much power to foreign powers. Why be independant from the UK only to join up to a new Empire? No thanks.

O'Morris

Scofflaw wrote: »

I think I know what you mean - we'll make mistakes, but they'll be our mistakes?

Exactly. And they'll be smaller mistakes and they'll have less severe consequences and we'll be able to quickly recover from them. I think we can get by alright with a good standard of living here in our own little country.

O'Morris

Dob74 wrote: »

I am sorry to see so many irish with self loathing tendencies.

We are a bit of a pathetic country when you think about it though.

turgon

O'Morris wrote: »

I would still have a very strong emotional attachment to the idea of us holding onto our national sovereignty though.

This is where we differ. When I think of Ireland in terms of my personal nationalism I think two things: the dumb conservatism of the people and the rain. I think nationalism clouds much of the debate on the EU.

turgon

O'Morris wrote: »

We are a bit of a pathetic country when you think about it though.

I know, but imagine the place 15 years ago. Rain, and condom ban.

Scofflaw

turgon wrote: »

I know, but imagine the place 15 years ago. Rain, and condom ban.

Oh, 1993 wasn't that bad. You should have tried the Eighties - the rural Eighties.

Ah, the grim Soviet Paddy's Day Parades of yesteryear. Rain, freezing wind, and floats 'celebrating' the Milk Production Board's achievement of quota, crawling up a smoke-blackened O'Connell Street past wooden-faced politicians in heavy wool coats. The Magic Bus, the MV St. Columba, an interview suit and ferry ticket on graduation. A mostly derelict city centre, with buildings held apart by steel beams to prevent them falling into the holes left by the collapsed ones. More rain.

grimly,
Scofflaw

O'Morris

Scofflaw wrote: »

Oh, 1993 wasn't that bad. You should have tried the Eighties - the rural Eighties.

Ah, the grim Soviet Paddy's Day Parades of yesteryear. Rain, freezing wind, and floats 'celebrating' the Milk Production Board's achievement of quota, crawling up a smoke-blackened O'Connell Street past wooden-faced politicians in heavy wool coats. The Magic Bus, the MV St. Columba, an interview suit and ferry ticket on graduation. A mostly derelict city centre, with buildings held apart by steel beams to prevent them falling into the holes left by the collapsed ones. More rain.

Things were fairly depressing alright back before we joined the EU. Although, wait a minute...

Scofflaw

O'Morris wrote: »

Things were fairly depressing alright back before we joined the EU. Although, wait a minute...

Ah, no - for that you need to go even further back, to things like the marriage ban, the social acceptability of lower or no pay for women, legal penalisation of illegitimate children, complete economic and intellectual reliance on the UK despite much verbal Brit-bashing, a business world restricted by a thousand privileged arrangements and special understandings. Our main assets back then were an unspoiled landscape resulting from a complete dearth of industry and infrastructure, and an incredibly strong community ethos which was great as long as it didn't turn against you.

It took a while to prise Ireland out of the iron grip of living bishops and dead heroes.

cordially,
Scofflaw

mumhaabu

Abortion will never solve nothing it is murder of those who are unable to defend themselves and while there is life there is hope. Ann Dunham could have had an abortion back in 1961 when she a White Woman was pregnant to a Black mans baby who later grew up in a under privileged society to become the President of the United States of America. Abortion would have robbed the world of the talented individual. I may not be a fan of his polices but I admire his ability and what he has promised to. In 1961 Interracial Marriage was illegal in the United States and having a multi-racial child was a major social faux pas, Abortion would have been the easy way out, however she held our Head and we probably have the defining character of the next 25 years as a result.

I am highly suspect that Scofflow and O'Morris are some sort of utopian visonaries who would have more in common with the British colonisers who often referred to Irish people in similar a manner and they are racist towards Irish people. but the PC Brigade will of course (naturally) will give this the green light as it ok to discriminate against natives.

I Hope that there is a record turnout and that people gives it an even bigger defeating than ever before. Fine Gael may as well shut up shop if they decide to campaign against the wishes of Irish people.

Scofflaw

mumhaabu wrote: »

Abortion will never solve nothing it is murder of those who are unable to defend themselves and while there is life there is hope. Ann Dunham could have had an abortion back in 1961 when she a White Woman was pregnant to a Black mans baby who later grew up in a under privileged society to become the President of the United States of America. Abortion would have robbed the world of the talented individual. I may not be a fan of his polices but I admire his ability and what he has promised to. In 1961 Interracial Marriage was illegal in the United States and having a multi-racial child was a major social faux pas, Abortion would have been the easy way out, however she held our Head and we probably have the defining character of the next 25 years as a result.

Relevance?

mumhaabu wrote: »

I am highly suspect that Scofflow and O'Morris are some sort of utopian visonaries who would have more in common with the British colonisers who often referred to Irish people in similar a manner and they are racist towards Irish people. but the PC Brigade will of course (naturally) will give this the green light as it ok to discriminate against natives.

You may be highly suspect, but it would still be nice if you could counter the arguments instead of dissing the posters.

mumhaabu wrote: »

I Hope that there is a record turnout and that people gives it an even bigger defeating than ever before. Fine Gael may as well shut up shop if they decide to campaign against the wishes of Irish people.

Well, of course, there's a sense in which Fine Gael always campaign against the wishes of the Irish people.

cheekily,
Scofflaw

oscarBravo

oscarBravo wrote: »

...I am going to make it clear right now that if anyone tries to turn this thread into a debate on abortion, they will be banned, and there will be no further warnings.

mumhaabu wrote: »

Abortion will never solve nothing it is murder of those who are unable to defend themselves and while there is life there is hope.

Banned.

WooPeeA

Steviemak wrote: »

I always understood it that any country can leave the EU at anytime. Therefore if the EU goes down a particular route we can leave. Although the EU has so far been very positive in my view. And i don't see this changing under Lisbon.

If you agree with today's Europe that's fine.

But I don't, I want power in the hands of democratic Parliament, not unelected commission, common protection, not common fear and fights on EU level between the countries, and other needed laws. And Treaty of Lisbon was made to provide changes that I and many need.

ChocolateSauce

WooPeeA wrote: »

If you agree with today's Europe that's fine.

But I don't, I want power in the hands of democratic Parliament, not unelected commission, common protection, not common fear and fights on EU level between the countries, and other needed laws. And Treaty of Lisbon was made to provide changes that I and many need.

The EU parliament is elected, and they are the ones who pass laws, the commission only enforces them, and the commission is appointed by our directly elected representatives.