Assisted suicide/euthanasia

sink

There is a documentary on tonight on Sky Real Lives called 'Right To die' which will show a man committing suicide with the assistance of a firm called dignitas in Switzerland. I'm wondering what's the opinion of my fellow atheists, do you support full euthanasia, assisted suicide or neither?

I think I support either assisted suicide or euthanasia but i'm not sure due to so many complex ethical dilemmas. For instance someone who has gone senile might not have supported euthanasia prior to the onset of their condition but now do so but their cognitive function might no longer be capable of making an informed decision. Do you follow their wish when they were fully aware or do you follow their current wishes even though they have a diminished mental facility?

Here is were I heard about the documentary.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/north_yorkshire/7774351.stm

oeb

sink wrote: »

There is a documentary on tonight on Sky Real Lives called 'Right To die' which will show a man committing suicide with the assistance of a firm called dignitas in Switzerland. I'm wondering what's the opinion of my fellow atheists, do you support full euthanasia, assisted suicide or neither?

I think support either assisted suicide or euthanasia but i'm not sure due so many complex ethical dilemmas. For instance someone who has gone senile might not have supported euthanasia prior to the onset of their condition but now do so but their cognitive function might no longer be capable of making an informed decision. Do you follow their wish when they were fully aware or do you follow their current wishes even though they have a diminished mental facility?

Here is were I heard about the documentary.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/north_yorkshire/7774351.stm

It's a tricky issue, and TBH I'm not really sure how I would feel if it actually came up in my life (IE an old or sick relative wanting to die).

Without putting too much thought into it, I would like to say that a persons wishes should be respected. (But with regard to people who are 'failing' mentally. I really have no idea.)

toiletduck

I wouldn't dare presume to tell a person what is their own business.

Galvasean

I've made it quite clear to my own family that if i ever end up in a PVS (persistent vegative state) that they may 'pull the plug' on me so to speak.

seamus

Tbh, the only moral dilemma here is deciding whether or not someone is of sound mind to make that decision.
Our social norms tell us that if someone wants to die, then they are by definition mentally unwell - what person in their right mind would want their life to end?

But then we know that there are cases where this doesn't fit - someone who's in crippling pain and is destined to be so for years, or someone who is destined to die in complete agony, but who isn't in pain right now.

So that's the only question here. The question of whether it's right is irrelevant - if that's what the person wants, then there's no ethical or moral dilemma.
But how do we decide who's well enough to make the decision and who's not?

Any controls we put in place to "prevent" mentally unwell people from legally topping themselves will just mean they'll go off and do it some other way. But I guess someone who's mentally well wouldn't want to go through the pain of badly injuring yourself or the stress/risk of overdose. So I guess it does make sense to provide for people who would want to choose this route.

For some reason, I think the fairest route is to require confirmational signatories. So you get a doctor who's been treating/known you for at least 2 years, and four blood relatives who can't be more than one "jump" from you - so parents, siblings, aunts/uncles, or nieces/nephews. Why did I choose 4? No idea. I guess it seems like an appropriate number of people that they can't *all* make a mistake, and the person in question would have to discuss it with one before they could sign.

Rev Hellfire

Its a question of where do you draw the line and how do you determine someone's worth. Certainly most people will understand the mercy killing of someone with no hope of living and in pain. But should you assist someone who simply is too much the coward to work their way through the issues they're dealing with?

At times I wonder if there is a significant difference between say a DNR and Euthanasia. The former been legal the later not

Hivemind187

Your life is your own property and as such it is yours to do with as you see fit.

Laws threatening the freedom of the loved ones of someone who ends their life by means of assisted suicide is coercing that individual and is frankly abhorrent.

Provided a person is capable of making a rational decision with regard to whether they want to end their life or not they should have no interference, threats, corecion, condemnation etc from the authorities.

What really irks me is the self-satisfied theists claiming "all life is sacred"and the "only god has the right to giveth and taketh" etc.

Dades

There's a thread about it running in Humanities also.

Anyone should have the right to end their own life, regardless if some third party thinks them to be cowards because it. As suggested however, there are the cases of diminished mental capacity where I don't believe it would be ethical to offer 'assistance'.

--amadeus--

I think that one of the reasons this is such a hard argument to pin down is because it is multi faceted.

On the one hand you have the total right of everyone to run thier own life as they see fit (assuming that causes no harm to anyone else). I think that should include the right to end your own life at a time and in a manner of your choosing. However many of the people who attempt suicide are clearly and demonstrably mentally ill. Depression is an illness with clear indicators that can be diagnosed and treated by any competent GP. Once properly treated the suicidal impulses often fade.

The second facet to this is the difference between me deciding - for example - that I want to die because I have a degenerative illness and so jumping off a cliff or whatever and someone who is no longer physically able to take thier own life being assisted to do so.

Personal suicide is a huge problem in this country - particularly among young men - and more work on suicide prevention would be a great thing. I think Assisted Suicide is fine in theory but it needs tight and strict controls to prevent abuse but that the patients own wishes must be paramount.

aidan24326

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Your life is your own property and as such it is yours to do with as you see fit.

Agreed.

Where it is clear that the person wishing to die is of sound mind and has made the decision to die either to escape an unbearable situation or avoid one that is forthcoming, then it's really nobody's business to tell them they can't do it.

Bottle_of_Smoke

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya_uJHdOtdc

Rev Hellfire

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya_uJHdOtdc

Truly awesome

lostexpectation

whats it got do to with atheism?

Dades

lostexpectation wrote: »

whats it got do to with atheism?

Perhaps it's that non-believers can discuss the question from a purely ethical viewpoint, as for the most part they are not sidetracked by the idea that you might provoke the wrath of some god for ending your own life.

lostexpectation

yes but the op never mentioned god, only hivemind and you now did.

oeb

lostexpectation wrote: »

yes but the op never mentioned god, only hivemind and you now did.

I think you will find however that he posted it in the Atheism group. This is as relevant here as a post on abortion or gay marriage would be.

ChocolateSauce

I think it is deeply immoral to prohibit it, provided the person in question permits it.

lostexpectation

oeb wrote: »

I think you will find however that he posted it in the Atheism group. This is as relevant here as a post on abortion or gay marriage would be.

as in not very relevant.

oeb

Ok, I'll spell this out for you.

Some atheists (myself included) are of the opinion that modern societies general attitude towards such things as homosexuality, euthanasia and abortion are a direct result of religious dogma.

Is that a bit clearer?

Rev Hellfire

lostexpectation wrote: »

yes but the op never mentioned god, only hivemind and you now did.

Its pretty safe to infer that by posting in the athiest/agnostic forum they're looking for an answer without the ethical considerations which may arise from religion entering into the discussion.

Naturally that's a foolish assumption for this forum

sink

I was indeed looking for an answer without religious overtones. In my mind the only reason assisted suicide/euthanasia is illegal is because it goes against catholic teachings and I wanted to get away from that.

Dades

lostexpectation wrote: »

as in not very relevant.

Your posts are the only irrelevant ones in this thread. I'm not sure what your point is, but assume it's been made and move on.

robindch

Jesus and Mo on assisted suicide:

lostexpectation

sink wrote: »

I was indeed looking for an answer without religious overtones. In my mind the only reason assisted suicide/euthanasia is illegal is because it goes against catholic teachings and I wanted to get away from that.

now your getting there, I wouldn't say that's the only reason, i don't think you've given a good argument that that's the only reason, which is why i questioned his post, thank you revhellfire.

sink

lostexpectation wrote: »

now your getting there, I wouldn't say that's the only reason, i don't think you've given a good argument that that's the only reason, which is why i questioned his post, thank you revhellfire.

But I also didn't want to get into a religious debate, I wanted religion to be left completely out of it. Now I don't think that was ever very likely on this forum.

johnnyskeleton

sink wrote: »

There is a documentary on tonight on Sky Real Lives called 'Right To die' which will show a man committing suicide with the assistance of a firm called dignitas in Switzerland. I'm wondering what's the opinion of my fellow atheists, do you support full euthanasia, assisted suicide or neither?

Surely if you are an atheist euthanasia and assisted suicide are political questions. A such there is nothing about being an atheist that would inform your beliefs about euthanasia one way or another?

If you want a general view on euthanasia and assisted suicide, you should post in either humanities or politics.

sink

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Surely if you are an atheist euthanasia and assisted suicide are political questions. A such there is nothing about being an atheist that would inform your beliefs about euthanasia one way or another?

I am also a humanist.

lostexpectation

sink wrote: »

But I also didn't want to get into a religious debate, I wanted religion to be left completely out of it. Now I don't think that was ever very likely on this forum.

but you said

In my mind the only reason assisted suicide/euthanasia is illegal is because it goes against catholic teachings

so how can we have a discussion about euthanasia without mentioning the society we are currently in and the I mean i 'd like to be strictly atheist about this and make no mention of religion but I think a reason some people thinks its the 'only reason assisted suicide/euthanasia is illegal is because it goes against catholic teachings'.

one may wonder that even atheists can't ignore religion.

Rev Hellfire

The key to the question is in the opening post.

sink wrote: »

I'm wondering what's the opinion of my fellow atheists, do you support full euthanasia, assisted suicide or neither?

For me there are two questions which are applicable to euthanasia and these are (in my ohh so humble view):

a) Does a person have right to self-termination ?
I think that's one which most people here agree with, myself included.

b) Should we allow a person exercise that 'moral' right ?
That is less clear in my view. If we assume that human life is special (above and beyond that of animal or inanimate object) then we have a obligation to protect it where possible. Naturally if we assume a human life is no better or worse than any other animal then this isn't such an issue.
And you can view human life sacrosanct without religion. If for example the only consideration for protecting a human life is the possible impact it may have on others. Then its open session on the homeless from what I can see

Dades

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

If you want a general view on euthanasia and assisted suicide, you should post in either humanities or politics.

Did you read the OP?

sink wrote: »

I'm wondering what's the opinion of my fellow atheists, do you support full euthanasia, assisted suicide or neither?

lostexpectation wrote:

so how can we have a discussion about euthanasia without mentioning the society we are currently in and the I mean i 'd like to be strictly atheist about this and make no mention of religion but I think a reason some people thinks its the 'only reason assisted suicide/euthanasia is illegal is because it goes against catholic teachings'.

If you read this thread over you'll find it's your interjections that have derailed what was a non-religious discussion on the morality of suicide. Just because you have forced the religious element to the surface doesn't mean anyone has to now involve it. You are spoiling this thread.

condra

Just for the record regarding abortion, gay marriage etc:
-They are all completely seperate, devisive issues, and being secular doesn't make someone pro abortion, pro gay marriage etc by default.

Anyway - back on topic-
I find it utterly terrifying, that I could be kept alive, in agony, against my will.

I personally feel that when someone is dying and in pain, assisted suicide is one of the most beautiful, courageous and compassionate things a human can do for another.