Where does my money go?

pullandbang

Each week I pay €40 to shoot 100 clays at various registered shoots around the country. I know that some of the €40 comes back as prize money and some is profit for the shoot owner, but where does the rest go?

IRLConor

I don't know the economics of clay shooting but the smallbore competitions run by DURC over the years I've been a member swing between making a small profit and a big loss. Usually the determining factor is the number of people who turn up, but the availability of targets for 50m has been a problem too.

Entry is usually €15 or so.

pullandbang

IRLConor wrote: »

Entry is usually €15 or so.

€15 is understandable as there is no target cost as such (unlike clays). How much of the €15 is given back as prize money? Is it a fixed percentage? Does any of the €15 go to your governing organisation?

dave999

pullandbang wrote: »

Each week I pay €40 to shoot 100 clays at various registered shoots around the country. I know that some of the €40 comes back as prize money and some is profit for the shoot owner, but where does the rest go?

P&B,
I get asked this at nearly every shoot. The perception is that the grounds make a great deal of profit and I'm constantly having to state that it is not the case. As I'm partner in a shooting ground, I have the breakdown.

To explain:
€7.00 per shooter goes to ICPSA for levies
€6.00 goes into the 'prize' fund for winners at that shoot
€10.00 is the cost of clays per 100 shot (includes very small % for testing trap set up, show birds, no birds etc)
€5.50 (on average) goes to the running cost of that shoot, this covers a shoot levy of €20.00 per shoot, paid to the ICPSA, fuel and any payments for labour helping run the shoot.
€11.50 is retained by the club for payment of bank charges, traps, maintenance (equipment and grounds), lease and future investment.

I hope this expalins fully where your €40.00 goes.
Dave

Additional clarification to original reply:
I should add that none of the 'operational costs' of €5.50 include any payments made to managers/volunteer's who operate and run the shoots. Without them you could'nt shoot and these are people who are dedicated to the sport, god bless them.

Sparks

pullandbang wrote: »

€15 is understandable as there is no target cost as such (unlike clays). How much of the €15 is given back as prize money? Is it a fixed percentage? Does any of the €15 go to your governing organisation?

€1 goes to the NGB (or is meant to, it doesn't happen as often as not), and it's usually €15 for adults, €10 for students/juniors. Of the remaining money, most goes on prizes. Only in the years where there's a good turnout will DURC do anything but break even and if they do make a profit the money goes back into running the club. WTSC are the same except that I don't think we've ever broken even on a match yet - we do a lot of local fundraising to compensate.

IRLConor

pullandbang wrote: »

€15 is understandable as there is no target cost as such (unlike clays). How much of the €15 is given back as prize money? Is it a fixed percentage? Does any of the €15 go to your governing organisation?

Prizes are typically not cash, but crystal glasses or medals. There are usually prizes for each class, so cash isn't really feasible.

The 50m paper targets cost enough that they have to be budgeted for.

A few Euro went to the NTSA back when I last saw the figures.

dave999

pullandbang wrote: »

Each week I pay €40 to shoot 100 clays at various registered shoots around the country. I know that some of the €40 comes back as prize money and some is profit for the shoot owner, but where does the rest go?

P&B,
I should have added that if you were a Junior (which I know you're not!), you would pay €20.00 entry fee per shoot (upto the age of 18, but Juniors 'insist' that it is upto the age of 21!!), we actually loose money because we still have to pay the full levies, prize, clays and shoot operating costs!

And we are supposed to encourage juniors to shoot.

dave999

dave999 wrote: »

P&B,

€11.50 is retained by the club for payment of bank charges, traps, maintenance (equipment and grounds), lease and future investment.
quote]

And, I should have added, €375 per annum (2008) for club affiliation fee's to the ICPSA.

Well you asked!
Dave

pullandbang

dave999 wrote: »

And, I should have added, €375 per annum (2008) for club affiliation fee's to the ICPSA.Well you asked!

I certainly did and I didn't expect such a detailed reply!!!!:)

Seems that a large percentage of clay money goes back to the NGB compared to the bullet money - 17.5% of entry fees compared to 6.6%.

Also seems a bit odd that juniors get half price entry (which is good) but still pay full price levy (which is bad)!

dave999

pullandbang wrote: »

I certainly did and I didn't expect such a detailed reply!!!!:)

Seems that a large percentage of clay money goes back to the NGB compared to the bullet money - 17.5% of entry fees compared to 6.6%.

Also seems a bit odd that juniors get half price entry (which is good) but still pay full price levy (which is bad)!

No comment on the & costs to NGB as these are the rules we abide by, but don't always agree. I have made representation about reducing Junior levies, but no luck.

dave999

pullandbang wrote: »

Each week I pay €40 to shoot 100 clays at various registered shoots around the country. I know that some of the €40 comes back as prize money and some is profit for the shoot owner, but where does the rest go?

P&B,
There is a ground swell of opinion amongst the ground owners (especially the 'up gun' ones!) that the grounds and shooters are limited by options and restricted by many rules (the % of NGB rules governing grounds is astounding). The opinion also includes the fact that grounds are seen as competing against one another, which is not the way things are.

In UK shooters enjoy 'shooting for birds' at registered shoots, but we cannot provide this here, so I'm told. We already know that shooters want this.

Also to be fair we (The Mountain) had a great start with a lot of support from other ground owners and the NGB, but the climate has changed. Grounds getting 3 or 4 squads is making the whole thing difficult, when there can be good shooting at fewer registered shoots.

The ground owners are going to meet early next year to iron a few things out and hopefully you will get more for your hard earned €40.00.

All comments very welcome (be nice please!)
Dave

jwshooter

with regard to the icpsa it goes into running the association ,teams ,legal matters ,also training people that cant shoot how to train people to shoot ,

pullandbang

dave999 wrote: »

In UK shooters enjoy 'shooting for birds' at registered shoots, but we cannot provide this here, so I'm told. We already know that shooters want this.

That'd it be a good idea. I know a few lads who don't want to join the ICPSA or do registered shoots but would love to have a go at a 100 bird shoot.

dave999 wrote: »

The ground owners are going to meet early next year to iron a few things out and hopefully you will get more for your hard earned €40.00.

Look forward to it!

pullandbang

jwshooter wrote: »

with regard to the icpsa it goes into running the association

Agree, we have a full time secretary who is excellent.

jwshooter wrote: »

teams

Other than entry fees what do team members get? They have to pay for their own uniforms, clothing, travel etc.[/quote]

jwshooter wrote: »

legal matters

Ouch! Don't go there!:mad:

jwshooter wrote: »

,also training people that cant shoot how to train people to shoot ,

Must mention to our former Olympian that he can't shoot!:D

Sparks

Former Olympian???

jwshooter

pullandbang wrote: »

Agree, we have a full time secretary who is excellent.



Other than entry fees what do team members get? They have to pay for their own uniforms, clothing, travel etc.

Ouch! Don't go there!:mad:



Must mention to our former Olympian that he can't shoot!:D[/QUOTE]

were not england with thousands of shooters so money is tight , iv shot many time for ireland in trap and sporting .when you step up to take your first shots of a international and put on the green blazer money matters little .there is lads coaching that would not hit the parish the live in.i think to spend money on training coaches they should have some standard of shooting .

Sparks

The thing is jw, coaching is coaching and shooting is shooting. There's precious little cross-over. I know guys and girls who can outshoot anyone else on the line, but who could never tell you how they did it, let alone how to improve someone else.

Best coachs I ever knew never broke 560 in air rifle; but they've coached every Irish air rifle shooter that's represented us abroad for years and damn near every national-level air rifle shooter out there has been trained or coached by them at one time or another.

TrapperJohn

its a common misconception that good shooters make good coaches and this has been well proven both academically and in practice.

i' know a dtl shooter who was a good alrounder and who won a few high profile competitions. he used this as a track record to sell himself as a top dtl coach over the years but sadly the coaching ability and the shooting ability didn't quite match and i suspect they never will.

it requires a different set of personal skills to coach and anyone who goes down that path should be encouraged for if we don't have coaches we'll go nowhere as a sport.

dave999

TrapperJohn wrote: »

it requires a different set of personal skills to coach and anyone who goes down that path should be encouraged for if we don't have coaches we'll go nowhere as a sport.

+1
I totally agree, but if I could be so bold as to return to the original post by P&B, which was about €40.00 and what happens to it.

I think we could continue the debate on 'value for money' (VFM) invested in coaching and other critical developments (without naming individuals of course!).

I really would like to see the debate develop into what VFM grounds/clubs can offer to the paying shooter to enhance the person & the sport.

If this is not the forum for finding out what is the best way forward, can someone let me know?

Also I assume everyone has seen the ICPSA website www.icpsa.ie on the 'strategic plan', it includes a questionnaire, I have completed it, will be nice to see how it translates in the plan.
Dave

bigred

dave999 wrote: »

+1
I totally agree, but if I could be so bold as to return to the original post by P&B, which was about €40.00 and what happens to it.

I think we could continue the debate on 'value for money' (VFM) invested in coaching and other critical developments (without naming individuals of course!).

I really would like to see the debate develop into what VFM grounds/clubs can offer to the paying shooter to enhance the person & the sport.

If this is not the forum for finding out what is the best way forward, can someone let me know?

Also I assume everyone has seen the ICPSA website www.icpsa.ie on the 'strategic plan', it includes a questionnaire, I have completed it, will be nice to see how it translates in the plan.
Dave

I'm not a clay buster myself, but as an outsider, judging by the website and the amount of shoots, ICPSA looks like a great outfit. The lack of matches for what I do is frustrating, but you guys have somewhere to go EVERY weekend! You even had ole Biffo at the shoot in Esker. I'd happily pay €40 if I had somewhere to go every weekend.

TrapperJohn

dave999 wrote: »

+1
Also I assume everyone has seen the ICPSA website www.icpsa.ie on the 'strategic plan', it includes a questionnaire, I have completed it, will be nice to see how it translates in the plan.

this is a very positive move from the association and the more information and good ideas we can feed in the better.

the association has moved on well in the last few years and i think we won't be dissapointed if we feed them good ideas that they will get looked at.

unless we tell the association what we want then we can't blame them for what we get.

pullandbang

dave999 wrote: »

I really would like to see the debate develop into what VFM grounds/clubs can offer to the paying shooter to enhance the person & the sport.

The only way grounds can offer good value for money is if they are happy with their income from registered shoots. One way of helping in this regard is to allow "birds only" shooters at these events. It's a revenue stream for the ground owners and a way of attracting new blood into the sport. Let lads shoot a 100 bird competition for €20 or so - no levy to ICPSA, no contribution to the prize fund and no entitlement to a prize.

Another issue is the season for shooting - winter is the pits for Trap shooting. What with bad light, freezing wet weather, long distances to travel on icy roads etc. it's no wonder very few turn up. How can a shoot owner justify opening for a handful of guns. Maybe it's time to look at extending the season and moving the Home Countries Internationals back a bit. This would allow more shoots to take place in better weather.

It's also the "real" shooting season for a lot of lads and I certainly wouldn't have the trap gun out from Nov to Jan!

dave999 wrote: »

Also I assume everyone has seen the ICPSA website www.icpsa.ie on the 'strategic plan', it includes a questionnaire, I have completed it, will be nice to see how it translates in the plan.
Dave

Yep, I've done it too and every member should do it.

dave999

pullandbang wrote: »

The only way grounds can offer good value for money is if they are happy with their income from registered shoots. One way of helping in this regard is to allow "birds only" shooters at these events. It's a revenue stream for the ground owners and a way of attracting new blood into the sport. Let lads shoot a 100 bird competition for €20 or so - no levy to ICPSA, no contribution to the prize fund and no entitlement to a prize.

The birds only option needs to be a little bit more than €20.00 (say €25 to €30 - subject to checking Insurance) as fixed costs below show. Though there is a great value to the grounds and shooters if we have to open up anyway!

€10.00 is the cost of clays per 100 shot (includes very small % for testing trap set up, show birds, no birds etc). = fixed cost per shooter

€5.00 (on average, adjusted to take out ICPSA shoot levy) goes to the running cost of that shoot, this covers fuel and any payments for labour helping run the shoot.

= €15.00 base costs.

I have not factored in any Insurance (not sure of this on a registered shoot day). I'll check.

pullandbang wrote: »

Another issue is the season for shooting - winter is the pits for Trap shooting. What with bad light, freezing wet weather, long distances to travel on icy roads etc. it's no wonder very few turn up. How can a shoot owner justify opening for a handful of guns. Maybe it's time to look at extending the season and moving the Home Countries Internationals back a bit. This would allow more shoots to take place in better weather.

It's also the "real" shooting season for a lot of lads and I certainly wouldn't have the trap gun out from Nov to Jan!

Except for the chosen few that make the International level competitions, we could certainly vote for a 'tweak' to the season. Last weekend we had 21 DTL'ers and 4 ABT'ers (down 100% on prev shoot), so for those who braved the icy roads, we were happy to open.

Sparks

pullandbang wrote: »

The only way grounds can offer good value for money is if they are happy with their income from registered shoots. One way of helping in this regard is to allow "birds only" shooters at these events. It's a revenue stream for the ground owners and a way of attracting new blood into the sport. Let lads shoot a 100 bird competition for €20 or so - no levy to ICPSA, no contribution to the prize fund and no entitlement to a prize.

Yeah, but if you shoot the same match as everyone else and get ranked with everyone else, then why would you bother to pay the extra dosh when you're fairly sure you won't beat the Olympic champions/DTL champions, etc?
Maybe if there was a reduced levy for the bird-only shooters instead of none at all?
Or if you could come to one or two matches to start off with as bird-only, but after you got a taste for it you paid the full whack?
There's always another way to do it, after all.

Another issue is the season for shooting - winter is the pits for Trap shooting. What with bad light, freezing wet weather, long distances to travel on icy roads etc. it's no wonder very few turn up. How can a shoot owner justify opening for a handful of guns. Maybe it's time to look at extending the season and moving the Home Countries Internationals back a bit. This would allow more shoots to take place in better weather.

It's something rifle shooting also has to cope with - but shutting down shooting completely when the weather's a bit off isn't really a runner in Ireland
Try a Polar Bear shoot instead
(It works for BBQs!)

dave999

dave999 wrote: »

I have not factored in any Insurance (not sure of this on a registered shoot day). I'll check.

Checked:
All ICPSA members are Insured on a registered shoot day.
Non members pay the €5.00 ICPSA day Insurance.

Also:
I have just spoken to gang in UK and registered shoot entry (DTL/ABT) is £40.00 and birds only entry is £30.00. Not sure if the same applies in the North.

pullandbang

Sparks wrote: »

Yeah, but if you shoot the same match as everyone else and get ranked with everyone else, then why would you bother to pay the extra dosh when you're fairly sure you won't beat the Olympic champions/DTL champions, etc?)

Those of us who shoot registered competitions don't really mind paying full price because there is a fairly good classification system in place - you compete with your peers.
It's the non ICPSA members, or maybe someone who is a member but is trying out a new gun - they're the people I'm thinking of. If they could shoot birds only it provides additional revenue to the shoot owners who in turn will plough that money back into the grounds - well most of them!

As an aside, wouldn't it be a sickener if you went birds only and came out on top:eek:

dave999

dave999 wrote: »

Also:
I have just spoken to gang in UK and registered shoot entry (DTL/ABT) is £40.00 and birds only entry is £30.00. Not sure if the same applies in the North.

UK rules are interesting for target only entries!
"They will be permitted at all registered events, with the exception of Major and Minor Championships and other events defined by the management board of the CPSA. Targets-only competitors at all registered events other than Major and Minor Championships will enjoy the same rights and privilages as 'prize' shooters, except that they will not recieve prize entry money, but are eligable to win trophies, titles or donated prizes (including 'specific sponsored cash'), either as overall winners or in their class. Targets-only shooters are not eligable to shoot for regional or County teams taking part in National Championships"

So, if I read this right, your score counts for class, hi-gun during registered events, but I'm not sure if your score gets included in the clasifications. So, I'm off to check the ICPSA rules book!

pull!the other

I have been watching this debate with interest and was wondering if anyone actually asked the ICPSA these questions?

From my knowledge, birds only is optional at all registered shoots and costs the entry fee less the portion normally put in the prize fund. On the upside it reduces the cost. On the downside you will kick yourself in you win plus the eventual winner will also find the prize fund reduced.

The CPSA rules are used by the ICPSA also and a new International Clay Target Shooting Council “unified” rule book with all reference to any specific Association removed is currently in preparation so that Ireland, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland can all have access without the association costs.

The €7 levy is a thorny issue. The levy has €3 going to the shooters fund, €3 to the ICPSA and €1 to the provincial Associations.

With regard to juniors, the number of members under 18 who do not pay full entry fees will not break either the clubs or the ICPSA so why not propose a reduced levy for such members at the next ICPSA AGM? Did anyone suggest it in their questionnaires for the strategic plan? For the junior members chancing their arm who are over 18…rules are rules and remind them of this! I believe that Dave 999 has a sign at the entry office along the lines of “Pi** Off I am busy” which would deal with this?

Anyone around long enough will remember when Ireland Team members had to pay for their shoot costs and banquet tickets. Nowadays Team members get their entry paid, banquet tickets, Team freebies (fleece jackets/polo shirts/bags etc).

The portion going to the ICPSA is put towards running the Association which if anyone looks at the annual accounts is not a cheap affair.

This would be a good time to let the ICPSA know what you think and the Strategic Plan is your way forward.

Sparks

Specifically on the Juniors issue, why is it seen that being aged over 18 but under 21 and claiming junior status is chancing your arm? ISSF defines it that way (well, specifically, they say you have to be under 21 on Dec 31 in the year you're claiming junior status so often it works out at being under-20).
That's certainly how we've always defined it for the NTSA just for the sake of simple rules.

pull!the other

Sparks wrote: »

Specifically on the Juniors issue, why is it seen that being aged over 18 but under 21 and claiming junior status is chancing your arm? ISSF defines it that way (well, specifically, they say you have to be under 21 on Dec 31 in the year you're claiming junior status so often it works out at being under-20).
That's certainly how we've always defined it for the NTSA just for the sake of simple rules.

The "under 18" and "chancing of arms" refers to discounted entry and membership rather than competition status.

The ICPSA gives discounted membership to all those under 18 and those under 23 who are in full time education but only those under 18 get the discounted entry...some of the juniors over 18 who are looking for the discounted entry probably have more disposable income than some of us older campaigners do!

For competition purposes a junior is someone under 21 on the day of the shoot.

dave999

pull!the other wrote: »

This would be a good time to let the ICPSA know what you think and the Strategic Plan is your way forward.

I encourage everyone, of whatever shooting denomination to give their views to this plan. We have some great idea's for improving the way forward which may be of benefit to others in the wider shooting fraternity.

As a 'ground' I would like to see some feedback here on what you 'the shooter' want in terms of value for money, so that we can develop our own plan to fit in (BTW we are holding back on setting up a pistol range till the heat dies down on the 'other' debate).
Dave