Why is there not more micro breweries in Ireland?

JæKæ

I'm in Canada at the moment, and every place with any more than a few thousand people has it's own micro-brewery serving up fine selections of beers, ales and stouts. It's great trying all the different ales in each town. And the off licenses have serious selection; there's IPA, Pale Ales, Cream Ales, Red Ales, Winter Ales, 9% ales. And that's just the ales.
At home about 90% just drinks Bud, Heineken, Carlsberg, Miller, Guinness or Smithwicks. Any different pinks like the Czech and German ones always cost more in pubs.
I'm from Carlow, and to be honest I didn't really support the Carlow breweries beers when I was at home. The main reason being the prices and the fact they are not very readily available. I will buy theirs when I go home though.

So why is there no micro-breweries in Ireland? Does it cost too much to produce for them to be competitive?

JIZZLORD

dunno if the market is ready yet, most people are rooted with the macro brews. people are unwilling to change to be honest. one night in the pub i got a bottle of maisels weiss and one of the lads asked me "why the hell are you drinking that ****e" and not "what is that ****e you're drinking"
i suppose advertising plays a part in the drinking habits of most people. why else do you think people think smirnoff is über premium stuff?

kenmc

Unfortunately the vast majority of people are mindless lemmings, and unless they see it being drunk on the television they consider it unfit for public consumption.
Oh, and it also tends to be a major turn-off if it actually tastes of something :rolleyes:

c - 13

kenmc wrote: »

Unfortunately the vast majority of people are mindless lemmings, and unless they see it being drunk on the television they consider it unfit for public consumption.
Oh, and it also tends to be a major turn-off if it actually tastes of something :rolleyes:

Its not only that though - I find a lot of my Irish friends are very unyielding on everything they consume and completely balk at trying something new. Same goes for beer a lot of them would prefer to drink something they like the taste of other than drop a few euro on something that they may not like.

Dont understand it personally, even if what I try tastes like fermented leper's arse I like to know that i've tried it.

BeerNut

It's a number of interrelated reasons. One is the consolidation of the market: the Big Two managed to get into a dominant market position years before the beer-drinking public became concerned about quality or variety. As a result they now have a massive amount of leverage and can make life very difficult for anyone trying to break into the market. They have a powerful grip on both the retailers and the customers because they can afford to discount at will, offer all manner of incentives, and advertise heavily.

The other big issue is the licensing regime. In countries with lots of microbreweries -- Canada too, I'm sure -- it's possible to apply to a local authority to be granted a licence to serve beer. You can't do that in Ireland. You have to buy an existing licence on a private marketplace which guards the price very closely, since it's a pension scheme for lots of holders. The licensees also have the political backing to maintain the status quo. The upshot of this is when you've decided to go into the pub trade, the overheads you've paid out are enormous before the first pint is served. You need to get as many people in as possible, and get them drinking beer with good margins on them. The risks associated with stocking beer from smaller breweries -- where marketing is less and supply might not be constant -- is too great. So they stick with the safe option of macrobeer.

And then there are other smaller factors, like the red tape Revenue have in place to make setting up a new brewery very difficult. And then there's the unfortunate fact that an awful lot of Irish beer drinkers see beer as a route to intoxication rather than something to be tasted and enjoyed.

fatboypee

I wholly agree with all considerations, it is disappinting, the narrow mindedness associated with consumption of food or drink here. Not simply generational either. Where I live, we have seen 2 indian restaurants come and go and the staple diet of 'forrin' food is still chinese (with more than a smack of sweet'n sour chicken balls & chips), the god-send that is the international beer house appears to exist purely to feed an ex-pat and an irish-enlightened(by ex pats) succession of trade, yet, the staple of it's sales still remains the old standby's..

For my money, (returning to topic), the only way different beers will become available, is if people who drink crapwicks are offered a credible alternative (imagine, an ale with a bit of taste ), from there, god & govt' willing, we may see the loosening of licensing (the cafe culture beer bill thingy would've gone someway to letting in some competition methinks) and the emergence of quality micro breweries who have an access to the market that I think is there....

/fbp

BeerNut

fatboypee wrote: »

the only way different beers will become available, is if people who drink crapwicks are offered a credible alternative

No, that won't work. It's in the interests of the macrobrewers and publicans that this doesn't happen, and they won't want it to. It has to start with the drinker: demanding better beer and drinking it wherever it can be found. Until then, the trade can simply shrug and say "there's no demand for that sort of thing".

Franciscan Well are happy to get their beers out into other pubs, and will assist with rebadging and point-of-sale advertising for any licensee who takes their stuff. Galway Hooker are also willing to distribute, so long as the pub in question isn't too far off their existing delivery route. And Carlow beers are easy to get hold of in bottled form at least. The alternative beers are there, but the drinkers have to demand them.

fatboypee

BeerNut wrote: »

No, that won't work. It's in the interests of the macrobrewers and publicans that this doesn't happen, and they won't want it to. It has to start with the drinker: demanding better beer and drinking it wherever it can be found. Until then, the trade can simply shrug and say "there's no demand for that sort of thing".

Franciscan Well are happy to get their beers out into other pubs, and will assist with rebadging and point-of-sale advertising for any licensee who takes their stuff. Galway Hooker are also willing to distribute, so long as the pub in question isn't too far off their existing delivery route. And Carlow beers are easy to get hold of in bottled form at least. The alternative beers are there, but the drinkers have to demand them.

Whereas I agree in theory, my gut reaction remains that unless a consensus size of the existing market is exposed to the fact that ales can taste better than what they currently imbibe (aka crapwicks and maybe bass), there will be insufficient leverage behind a revolution...

fbp

BeerNut

fatboypee wrote: »

unless a consensus size of the existing market is exposed to the fact that ales can taste better than what they currently imbibe (aka crapwicks and maybe bass)

And how do you see this happening? Who should be doing what? How do we take the process beyond this thread?

Also, I'm not sure why you're limiting this to ales, since they're a tiny part of the market. Turn every Smithwick's drinker into a Rebel Red drinker tomorrow and very little will have changed. But have half the people who drink Guinness and Heineken turn to microbrewed beer and then the industry will sit up and take notice.

fatboypee

BeerNut wrote: »

And how do you see this happening? Who should be doing what? How do we take the process beyond this thread?

Also, I'm not sure why you're limiting this to ales, since they're a tiny part of the market. Turn every Smithwick's drinker into a Rebel Red drinker tomorrow and very little will have changed. But have half the people who drink Guinness and Heineken turn to microbrewed beer and then the industry will sit up and take notice.

Your points are of course very valid, I cannot see this happening for the very reasons you outline (particularly the issue of publican licensing). If it were easier and cheaper to do, I would certainly be in favour of opening a pub myself that caters for just such a market, along with it, I would sell food in the way I have experienced it in country pub style establishments (not gastro pubs as such, but a good balance). To live, to hope, to dream maybe..... but in short, I have no answers, merely observations which, are pretty useless I will admit...

FBP

The Agogo

isnt there already a pub that sells <i>only</i> micro brewed beers called the Porterhouse?

They do alot of good brews (and absolute sh*te aswell, such as "oyster stout" which tastes like grass and lynx).

And they refuse to sell Heino, Bud, etc.,

mayordenis

The Agogo wrote: »

isnt there already a pub that sells <i>only</i> micro brewed beers called the Porterhouse?

They do alot of good brews (and absolute sh*te aswell, such as "oyster stout" which tastes like grass and lynx).

And they refuse to sell Heino, Bud, etc.,

They don't only sell micro brewed beers.
They sell a fairly wide range of beers from around the world aswell.
Oyster stout is great - your description of it is not.

oblivious

The Agogo wrote: »

isnt there already a pub that sells <i>only</i> micro brewed beers called the Porterhouse?

They do sell there own and a range of international beers, also there is Messrs Maguire

Dob74

The beer tastes nice from mirco breweries but it gives me a terrible hang-over. It also makes me go a little crazy too. If you are in cork and you would like to try one, go to the Francisian Well on the North Mall.

nowhereman

Surely thant cant be it, what is wrong with this country are we we still in dark ages or are there just not enough of us to put a spark to this thing.

BeerNut

nowhereman wrote: »

Surely thant cant be it

We're open to alternative theories.

nowhereman wrote: »

are we we still in dark ages

Yes. Haven't you been watching the news?

nowhereman wrote: »

are there just not enough of us to put a spark to this thing.

That's precisely it. Have you ceased drinking everything made by Heineken and Diageo? Until you do, you're part of the problem.

nowhereman

BeerNut wrote: »

We're open to alternative theories.

Yes. Haven't you been watching the news?

That's precisely it. Have you ceased drinking everything made by Heineken and Diageo? Until you do, you're part of the problem.

Is there a bunch of you guys that meet and dicuss these issues somewhere?

BeerNut

Yup. See my sig (the big orange bit).

nowhereman

Thanks for that BEERNUT i'll be in touch.:D

The Minstrel

Some of the porterhouse stouts and so on are great. It's a shame they don't sell them in other pubs. I can't remember what Messrs Maguires beers are like, I must wander down there some night. The craft beer scene just needs one or two well known "institutions" to kick it off...a Stag's Head or a Mulligans maybe. Braindead people will always get the Millers etc but I can never understand that some very good pubs would have a selection of, what are to my mind, the exact same beers: Millers, Coors, Heineken, Carsberg, Bud etc...all on sale in the one pub! It's like having a fridge full of different brands of water. It is changing though...beginning to see the occasional alternative option even in some of the wanky bars

The Minstrel

Aren't the English introducing some legislation to crack the large-brewery strangehold on the bar trade? Something to do with large breweries not being able to control any more than 75 or 80% of a pubs drinks menu. Publicans will be compelled to offer alternatives.

gbee

http://www.franciscanwellbrewery.com/

BeerNut

The Minstrel wrote: »

It's a shame they don't sell them in other pubs.

You'll get Temple Brau in The Palace, Oyster Stout in Bentley's, Hersbrucker and Oyster Stout in The Salt House in Galway. The bottled range is sold in The Bull & Castle

The Minstrel wrote: »

I can't remember what Messrs Maguires beers are like, I must wander down there some night.

Try the MM Munich that's on at the moment -- it's gorgeous.

The Minstrel wrote: »

The craft beer scene just needs one or two well known "institutions" to kick it off...a Stag's Head or a Mulligans maybe.

The Stag's Head used to sell Dublin Brewing Company beer on draught, much good that it did that brewery.

The Minstrel wrote: »

I can never understand that some very good pubs would have a selection of, what are to my mind, the exact same beers: Millers, Coors, Heineken, Carsberg, Bud etc...all on sale in the one pub! It's like having a fridge full of different brands of water. It is changing though...beginning to see the occasional

The Irish are among the most brand-loyal consumers in the developed world. That all those beers taste more-or-less the same is largely irrelevant when you're a [insert brand here] drinker.

Anyway, two new Irish breweries brought beers to the market for the first time this week: Dungarvan and Trouble Brewing. Both run by longtime Boardsies too.

old hippy

I always like to try any of the smaller, new brands when home. I like variety - that's the one plus about living in the UK, there are hundreds and hundreds of beers to chose from. Is there an Irish equivalent of CAMRA, I wonder?

They brought Smithwicks here last year to the O' Neill's chain. More creamy, like Kilkenny is. Prefer the home stuff. I did try a few pints in the States and that's closer to the original.

BeerNut

old hippy wrote: »

Is there an Irish equivalent of CAMRA, I wonder?

Sort of. In July there will be Beoir: a campaign group for better choice and quality in Irish beer. We're currently signing people up as founder members so we can sort out our Constitution and what we're going to do once we get going properly. More details here. Please join us if more variety and better beer is something you'd like to see in Ireland.

Where we're not like CAMRA is that we don't care where the gas in our beer comes from as long as it's nice to drink.

_blank_

BeerNut wrote: »

Sort of. In July there will be Beoir: a campaign group for better choice and quality in Irish beer. We're currently signing people up as founder members so we can sort out our Constitution and what we're going to do once we get going properly. More details here. Please join us if more variety and better beer is something you'd like to see in Ireland.

Where we're not like CAMRA is that we don't care where the gas in our beer comes from as long as it's nice to drink.

Please start a thread about that if you want, publicise it more.

I would wholeheartedly allow it.

BeerNut

Sorry Des -- that was supposed to be a quick answer to the question and kinda got away from me

I'll be in touch about a proper thread in due course.

old hippy

BeerNut wrote: »

Sort of. In July there will be Beoir: a campaign group for better choice and quality in Irish beer. We're currently signing people up as founder members so we can sort out our Constitution and what we're going to do once we get going properly. More details here. Please join us if more variety and better beer is something you'd like to see in Ireland.

Where we're not like CAMRA is that we don't care where the gas in our beer comes from as long as it's nice to drink.

Oh fantastic, fair play to you

Brian CivilEng

I think that we are being a little harsh on the Irish consumer, it has been shown that when there is a slightly better beer available then a small but significant number of people will try it. Look at the popularity of Budvar, not a major player but still widely available. Most pubs in Dublin now have a few bottles of it in the fridge. Or my personal beer of choice in non-B&C/Porterhouse pubs is Erdinger. Neither of these beers have had significant advertising campaigns that I can remember but gained their success through point of sale advertising, and I believe they outsell any of the Irish micros. Plenty of people tried the Polish beers when they became available just because of their prominence in the fridge.

If we want people to drink the likes of Hooker or O'Hara's then it should be slowly expanded to more pubs instead of a big band campaign. Building up some loyal drinkers through point of sale advertising and price specials is the way to go, until there is enough drinkers and brand recognition to convince people to ask for them in other pubs and for publicans to request them in their bars. This is something in which I hope that Beoir will be instrumental. there is no reason why every Irish town with at least 10,000 inhabitants can't have one pub with some craft beer, whether on tap or in the fridge. Once there is a choice those that want them will seek them out.

BeerNut

abitofacomedian wrote: »

it has been shown that when there is a slightly better beer available then a small but significant number of people will try it.

That number is not yet sufficiently economically significant for the publican, from what I can see anecdotally. So Ely pulled both O'Hara's and Porterhouse Plain last year; The Thirsty Bull pulled Plain not long ago; Tramco has a big range of Irish craft beer in your face when you come in the door and I've never seen anyone (other than people I'm with) order them.

abitofacomedian wrote: »

Most pubs in Dublin now have a few bottles of it in the fridge.

I'm guessing you don't have numbers to back this up. My, again anecdotal, experience is that most do not.

abitofacomedian wrote: »

they outsell any of the Irish micros.

There's a logistical reason for that: the company which imports them both (Noreast) doesn't have to do anything other than distribute the beer. Compare that to a widespread micro like Hooker where you have just two guys, and one of them has to actually brew the stuff while they both take turns driving the van to customers in Cork, Donegal, and many points in between. And they have to arrange the point of sale stuff themselves: Noreast just get it in, pre-done, with the deliveries. Noreast do corporate entertaining: junkets for publicans to the Erding beer festival in September, for instance. They have that sort of capital because there's a nice mark-up on their beers, which all come from big breweries. It's not a fair comparison between a specialty beer importer and a microbrewery.

abitofacomedian wrote: »

Plenty of people tried the Polish beers when they became available just because of their prominence in the fridge.

Again, bottling is fine for a big Heineken or SABMiller subsidiary in Poland, but it's beyond the means of most Irish micros.

abitofacomedian wrote: »

Building up some loyal drinkers through point of sale advertising and price specials is the way to go, until there is enough drinkers and brand recognition to convince people to ask for them in other pubs and for publicans to request them in their bars. This is something in which I hope that Beoir will be instrumental.

That's the plan all right. As you say: it has to start with building the customer base.

abitofacomedian wrote: »

there is no reason why every Irish town with at least 10,000 inhabitants can't have one pub with some craft beer, whether on tap or in the fridge. Once there is a choice those that want them will seek them out.

There is a reason at the moment: publicans. But once demand increases things should start getting better. Though as soon as Diageo and Heineken start seeing their figures being affected there will be a whole new battle to fight.

Thundercats Ho

The Carlow Brewing Co. have some fine beers, and i've enjoyed 'sampling' them. It's a shame that it can't be got on draught in even one pub in it's home town.

I remember the initial publicity campagain when they opened up. Free pints for everyone, and everyone agreed that it tasted nicer than Guinness or Swithwicks (the Curim didn't really take off even though it's prob my favourite).

As soon as the free pints dried up, there were very few people interested, and they just went back to their usual tipple. I suppose thats fair enough at the outset, as it's their choice. What pissed me off was that in the pubs where it did become popular, it disappeared, as the pubs were offered incentives by the macro's (dunno if i should say anymore, it's anecdotal evidence anyway). Now people don't even have the choice to support their local beer which i think is a discrace.

I went into the brewing co. before and was taken on a tour, sampled the beers etc. it was great to do it, but was sad in a way knowing that we have this thing on our doorsteep, and it's not being utilised to it's full potential.

I can't see a shift in people's attitude towards beer quality (or the availability of independant irish beers) anytime soon.
We're caught up in this whole 'price of beer' situation at the moment, in so much as "i can get 6 bottles of miller in the supermarket, for the same price of one down the pub". People are brainwashed into looking for cheap beer, rather than quality, or even lesser known beers.