Why is there not more micro breweries in Ireland?

BeerNut

Thundercats Ho wrote: »

Now people don't even have the choice to support their local beer which i think is a discrace.

If they trot back to the pubs which ripped out the Carlow taps and order a Guinness instead, then they're not really in a position to complain. They're proving that Diageo made exactly the right move. If they want to support local brewing, they can buy bottled O'Hara's in Tesco.

Thundercats Ho wrote: »

it's not being utilised to it's full potential.

Oh it is. It's at full capacity. It's even moved out of the old Goods Store to a new, much bigger, brewery in Bagenalstown. It's just that 70% of the output goes straight to export because Irish drinkers aren't sufficiently interested.

Thundercats Ho wrote: »

We're caught up in this whole 'price of beer' situation at the moment, in so much as "i can get 6 bottles of miller in the supermarket, for the same price of one down the pub". People are brainwashed into looking for cheap beer, rather than quality, or even lesser known beers.

Craft beer will never compete with that; it doesn't anywhere else and it doesn't need to here. What we need is a realisation that the €2-a-can Guinness and Heineken are complete rip-offs when you look at the cost of production, and for people who are willing to shell out a bit extra for quality product will spend it on something made by humans, not machines, and which furthers the cause of locally-owned businesses. Craft beer will always be a niche -- it's a question of carving that out.

Thundercats Ho

BeerNut wrote: »

they can buy bottled O'Hara's in Tesco.

I'm aware of that. Plenty of other places too, just not in pubs.

BeerNut wrote: »

moved out of the old Goods Store to a new, much bigger, brewery in Bagenalstown. It's just that 70% of the output goes straight to export because Irish drinkers aren't sufficiently interested..

I'm aware of this too.
I wasn't speaking about production volumes.
It should be promoted and highlighted as a local Carlow product to be proud of more.

BeerNut wrote: »

Craft beer will always be a niche -- it's a question of carving that out.

Agreed

BeerNut

Thundercats Ho wrote: »

It should be promoted and highlighted as a local Carlow product to be proud of more.

By whom though? I'm pretty sure Seamus has been down that route before. White Gypsy are doing the same thing in Templemore at the moment: trying to promote it among the publicans and drinkers as The Beer From Here. Great idea, though I dunno how it's going.

RDM_83 again

I would say there's a price factor involved, look at the amount of Beamish thats available (and drank) these days compared to a few years ago*.
If you look at the UK many of the small companies ales also among the cheapest drink in the pub, where as in Ireland people would associate/expect a unknown beer to be more expensive (exceptions I know of are The Gingerman, Messrs and the Beirhaus in Galway and having drank in the first two a lot would say that the pint you get in either of them does not do justice to the drinks themselves).
To my mind the Porterhouse is the major culprit with its massive margins on beers even from the UK (I understand that there is the major issue of transport but it shouldn't increase it too their levels, having talked to a guy that was importing Hite Max (from Korea) he was saying he could supply a 1.6 litre bottle for e7 offsale price and this is a very small scale importer from a very far away country.


*know their now owned by the blandest brewer in the world

Brian CivilEng

BeerNut wrote: »

Noreast do corporate entertaining: junkets for publicans to the Erding beer festival in September, for instance. They have that sort of capital because there's a nice mark-up on their beers, which all come from big breweries. It's not a fair comparison between a specialty beer importer and a microbrewery.

I'll defer to your knowledge on the ins and outs of beer imports vs. microbrewing in this country Beer Nut, however the point I was trying to make was to challenge the notion that the Irish consumer wouldn't drink beer that isn't heavily advertised and not their usual tipple. I think the big brewery imported stuff shows that there is a sizeable amount who like to try new stuff and this is whom the Irish micros should be aiming for. I haven't seen much promotion for Erdinger outside of point of sale, but over a few years everyone who drinks it seemed to discover it for themselves.

Much as we'd all love to see Galway Hooker on tap in every pub that's not going to happen in the foreseeable future, I still think that it is possible to have bottles in the fridge. Only recently have I copped on that if the choice is only Heineken or Diageo I drink Coke, before that I'd ask for something different but accept the Guinness if nothing was available. So in the grand scheme of things I was seen as just another Guinness drinker.

My personal opinion is that if the Porterhouse bottled in 500ml bottles and were widely available they already have enough brand recognition to make stocking a few in the fridge of the local worthwhile.

On a matter of interest, is the O'Hara's stuff available in Tesco counted towards export since Tesco have started sourcing everything from the UK? they bottle in the UK right? So is it bought by Tesco in the UK and then shipped back here?

grenache

Thundercats Ho wrote: »

I can't see a shift in people's attitude towards beer quality (or the availability of independant irish beers) anytime soon.
We're caught up in this whole 'price of beer' situation at the moment, in so much as "i can get 6 bottles of miller in the supermarket, for the same price of one down the pub". People are brainwashed into looking for cheap beer, rather than quality, or even lesser known beers.

This is the thing you see, people are quite happy to buy cheap poor beer just so long as it will intoxicate them. Too many Irish drinkers suffer from the stupidity syndrome. They have no class and are only interested in one thing, getting drunk. We got a batch of O'Haras and Curim into the offie i work in last week and i've tried my best to get our regulars to try it but they're just not interested. Its their loss.

BeerNut

grenache wrote: »

people are quite happy to buy cheap poor beer

A bigger problem, IMO, is that people are prpared to buy expensive poor beer.

grenache

BeerNut wrote: »

A bigger problem, IMO, is that people are prpared to buy expensive poor beer.

Well yes, that is probably even more true unfortunately.

BeerNut

abitofacomedian wrote: »

the point I was trying to make was to challenge the notion that the Irish consumer wouldn't drink beer that isn't heavily advertised and not their usual tipple.

I agree that this notion has to be challenged. But the only useful way to challenge it is with numbers -- there has to be a business case for a stockist to take such beers on. I don't have the numbers; I trust that the salespeople for the breweries do.

abitofacomedian wrote: »

I think the big brewery imported stuff shows that there is a sizeable amount who like to try new stuff and this is whom the Irish micros should be aiming for.

The big crowds we get a special events is another sign of this. And I don't doubt it's the audience that the breweries are aiming for.

abitofacomedian wrote: »

I still think that it is possible to have bottles in the fridge.

Well, I've asked the Hooker lads about it and I can give you a long and boring account of why, right now, it isn't. But they're hoping to change that: they know they have customers waiting for this.

abitofacomedian wrote: »

My personal opinion is that if the Porterhouse bottled in 500ml bottles and were widely available they already have enough brand recognition to make stocking a few in the fridge of the local worthwhile.

There is a bit more to it than that. You'd need good point-of-sale gear and, most importantly, trained staff who are aware of the product and able to give it the extra push it'll need.

abitofacomedian wrote: »

On a matter of interest, is the O'Hara's stuff available in Tesco counted towards export since Tesco have started sourcing everything from the UK?

Good question. Dunno.

abitofacomedian wrote: »

they bottle in the UK right? So is it bought by Tesco in the UK and then shipped back here?

AFAIK it's all shipped straight back before being sold, so I don't think this is what happens. And I've never seen O'Hara's in a UK Tesco.

Brian CivilEng

I just dream of being able go to the bar in a pub that I didn't choose myself and get a nice drink. I'd even accept a bottle of O'Hara's Stout from the fridge. Until then I will just ask for a bottle of O'Hara's in every pub I visit despite knowing full well they don't stock anything not supplied by Diageo or Heineken. Then I can feel like I am doing my bit.

I wish the best of luck the the guys at Hooker. Excellent product, they deserve to be more widely appreciated. And the Irish public deserve to be able enjoy it.

The Minstrel

Thundercats Ho wrote: »

The Carlow Brewing Co. have some fine beers, and i've enjoyed 'sampling' them. It's a shame that it can't be got on draught in even one pub in it's home town.

Really? That's extraordinary. They've had it on tap in a pub in Bray for the Easter beer festival.

What harm is there in keeping just the one tap with the local brew in it? I bet guinness reps give better deals to pubs for keeping out the competition.

O'Hara's isn't a bad stout but I wonder does the logo throw people off it a bit...the hurley-type thing and spiral, all a bit Oirish and the gay font. Personally, I don't like that they have "celtic stout" on the bottles. Can anyone enlighten me as to what celtic stout is?

BeerNut

The Minstrel wrote: »

I bet guinness reps give better deals to pubs for keeping out the competition.

I doubt it's even come to that yet, as far as Irish microbreweries are concerned. But Heineken, who have a more diverse portfolio, are pretty aggressive at this. It's why their Paulaner now has the upper hand over Erdinger, and has all but eradicated Hoegaarden in the draught wheat beer sector.

The Minstrel wrote: »

Can anyone enlighten me as to what celtic stout is?

Something they thought it would be cool to write on the bottles. Probably works for them quite well abroad, which is the primary target market.

The Minstrel

The Minstrel wrote: »

I bet guinness reps give better deals to pubs for keeping out the competition.

Don't know about diageo, but I've been told by noreast reps that heineken offer ten free kegs to publicans if they remove erdinger taps from their pub. I imagine diageo would offer similar incentives to pubs. Its pretty hard hard to compete with that.

The Minstrel

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't know about diageo, but I've been told by noreast reps that heineken offer ten free kegs to publicans if they remove erdinger taps from their pub. I imagine diageo would offer similar incentives to pubs. Its pretty hard hard to compete with that.

Surely Erdinger are aware of this and have a few of tricks of their own up their sleeves. What's to stop a publican saying "thanks very much, I'll take those 10 free kegs", and then just reinstate the Erdinger tap as soon as he gets his free booze?

I didn't realise Paulaner was a Heineken beer, kind of puts me off it now. They have it priced pretty high, so I suppose that should set it off in people's minds that this type of beer is a premium drink....might help create a demand for more good german beers.

oblivious

The Minstrel wrote: »

Surely Erdinger are aware of this and have a few of tricks of their own up their sleeves. What's to stop a publican saying "thanks very much, I'll take those 10 free kegs", and then just reinstate the Erdinger tap as soon as he gets his free booze?.

Probable been cut of from selling Heineken maybe and all the point of sale material that Heineken provide fro both brands

BeerNut

The Minstrel wrote: »

Surely Erdinger are aware of this and have a few of tricks of their own up their sleeves.

Noreast wouldn't be able to offer the deep discounts that Heineken can -- different scale of business altogether.

The Minstrel wrote: »

What's to stop a publican saying "thanks very much, I'll take those 10 free kegs", and then just reinstate the Erdinger tap as soon as he gets his free booze?

As oblivious says, he needs Heineken more than Heineken needs him. I'm sure there's nothing to stop him reneging on the deal, but he'd most likely be shooting himself in the foot. Heineken, and Diageo, really do work on an offer-you-can't-refuse basis when it comes to pubs. They believe that a pub without their products will fail, though there are a lot more publicans out there willing to take that challenge these days, which is a good thing.

The Minstrel

BeerNut wrote: »

As oblivious says, he needs Heineken more than Heineken needs him. I'm sure there's nothing to stop him reneging on the deal, but he'd most likely be shooting himself in the foot. Heineken, and Diageo, really do work on an offer-you-can't-refuse basis when it comes to pubs. They believe that a pub without their products will fail, though there are a lot more publicans out there willing to take that challenge these days, which is a good thing.

I'm not so sure about this. If a pub is selling Erdinger in the first place, then it suggests that it's not a hillbilly or scumbag pub. Patrons will be more discerning and probably would take an alternative to Heineken if offered, especially at a cheaper price - the snobbery over price has gone. For run of the mill pubs I'd say they could survive without one of Carlsberg or Heineken, but probably not without the 2 of them.

BeerNut

The Minstrel wrote: »

I'd say they could survive without one of Carlsberg or Heineken

From what I've heard from people in the trade, these beers are not interchangeable. There's a very significant proportion of Heineken drinkers who will not order anything else. Sad but, seemingly, true.

BenShermin

This is a very interesting thread.

I was on a ferry to Dublin over the bank holiday weekend and got talking to an English ale enthusiast who asked me (one of the few people drinking pints and not getting sick:p) about the selection of beers and stouts in Ireland as he was going to be touring around. Needless to say I was embarrased to fill him in on the actual situation, all I could do was tell him about the Bull and Castle in Dublin and I told him to sample a pint of Rebel Red when he gets to Cork.

It looks like you have an uphill battle with your campaign there BeerNut, but I would suggest somehow getting support from middle class middle aged English people as they seem to take beer selection as serious as their French wine counterparts. A lot of these people holiday in Ireland now, maybe even more so than the binge British who can't afford the Euro/Sterling exchange rate when it comes to high Irish prices. Dublin City pubs in particular depend on tourism and if the McDaids and Kehoes get asked enough to stock products they might take notice.

I'd also like to add (and I don't think it's been mentioned on the forum before), my local was going to install a tap from one of the breweries talked about here, the brewer refused to make a deal with my local because the barman was only prepared to purchace a small volume of kegs. Said pub is very close to the Bull and Castle so delivery costs would not have been that high, ie the delivery truck could have delivered a keg or two to my local before going up to the Bull and Castle. If this is true it could be very hard to dream of non Diageo pubs in the future.

BeerNut

BenShermin wrote: »

I would suggest somehow getting support from middle class middle aged English people as they seem to take beer selection as serious as their French wine counterparts.

I'm not a particular fan of CAMRA's gas-based approach to beer quality, but I have met with their umbrella body EBCU and the CAMRA people there are very nice and sensible and supportive.

BenShermin wrote: »

A lot of these people holiday in Ireland now,

There used to be a speciality beer pub on the Shannon, which served cask ale to boating tourists. But it closed about 18 months ago. I don't think promoting Irish beer to foreigners is going to have much of an effect on the market as a whole. It's too seasonal for one thing. It's Irish beer drinkers to whom we'll be pitching the kerrr-azy notion of drinking beer from Irish breweries. If we make life easier for beer hunting tourists, that'll of course be a bonus.

BenShermin wrote: »

If this is true it could be very hard to dream of non Diageo pubs in the future.

I don't think anyone is realistically dreaming of non-Diageo pubs; merely the lack of total domination by the Big Two. But it is true that breweries can sometimes be their own worst enemies with stuff like this. Look at the dire websites most of them have, for instance. There's no point in trying to backseat-manage someone else's business though.

maninasia

The microbreweries need to make themselves popular with live music, food or some other attractions. Get themselves established as a brand first. They should also look at using unusual bottles or some type of marketing trick to reinforce the beer identity. Bottling beer makes it look classier. Later on, when people are more openminded about trying new things, other microbreweries can open without such investment.

BeerNut

maninasia wrote: »

The microbreweries need to make themselves popular with live music, food or some other attractions.

You need a pub for that. Most Irish micros do not have a dedicated outlet of their own. The Porterhouse, Tig Bhric and (I think) Oslo already do have live music and food. The Franciscan Well is the only tied pub I know that doesn't.

maninasia wrote: »

Get themselves established as a brand first.

Even in the current climate, advertising is expensive. But yes, I agree that they are often quite poor at promotion. It's something that the new Dungarvan Brewing Company are doing well. I hope they maintain it.

maninasia wrote: »

Bottling beer makes it look classier.

Anyone who can afford to bottle does bottle. Irish breweries do not actively choose not to bottle.

maninasia wrote: »

Later on, when people are more openminded about trying new things, other microbreweries can open without such investment.

They will still need to jump through all the administrative and financial hoops that Irish law requires. Even if we had a market more receptive to Irish craft beer (and this is something for the drinkers to change, no amount of marketing trickery will do it) it will still be far from easy to set up a new brewery in Ireland.

enda1

You say the dungarvan lads are doing a good job at promoting themselves, but sure look at their website!

http://www.dungarvanbrewingcompany.com/products.html

There's so little information.
The page of stockists is hidden in the "Find Us" page. Why there?

There's no pictures of the bottles, no mention of ABV nor volume.
It's really quite poor I think.

On the other hand, its great to see more breweries setting up and getting their foot in the door.

Boro

BeerNut wrote: »

You need a pub for that. Most Irish micros do not have a dedicated outlet of their own. The Porterhouse, Tig Bhric and (I think) Oslo already do have live music and food. The Franciscan Well is the only tied pub I know that doesn't.

The Well has live music every week as far as I know but its not anywhere near as often as in the Porterhouse for example. Theres also another pub up the road from the Franciscan Well called the Bierhaus. I'm not sure if its the same crowd that are in Galway but they have a lot of Irish microbrews on tap and in the fridge. They also have a great selection of foreign beer in on tap and bottled. Those two are my favourite spots in Cork anyway.

BeerNut

Boro wrote: »

The Well has live music every week as far as I know

And apparently they were baking pizzas outside last night.

Boro wrote: »

I'm not sure if its the same crowd that are in Galway

It's not. I've heard the Galway one is awful.

IrishWhiskeyCha

BeerNut wrote: »

It's not. I've heard the Galway one is awful.

If you want a decent selection of beer go there ... if you want to sit in a decent pubs don't :rolleyes:

Very basic and cheaply done and comes across to be more of a student bar these days.

BeerNut

IrishWhiskeyCha wrote: »

If you want a decent selection of beer go there

I go to The Salt House.

IrishWhiskeyCha

BeerNut wrote: »

I go to The Salt House.

Have not been yet must try it out but don't get out in Galway much any more ... For some reason when I first saw it I thought it was a Polish pub :rolleyes:


By the way got to pop into the little beer festival in the Oslo a while back. Was grat to taste most of the beers ... however I was a bit pissed off by how it was set up.

Eventhough there was a hand out to show you where every one was these were scarce and we could not find one until we were there for about an hour. However there was no signs or placards on any of the bars of the various breweries to let you know who's who. It is a simple thing to do and would draw attention to each distillery and get people used to their names. If I was standing in a room I know I would remember the brewery names much more easily if I just could have a pint and take it all in.

Lastly and this is the Oslo's fault ... they had a big screen showing the Leinster (I think) Rugby match and there was a group of about 20 lads drinking Heino (or the like) and totally cluttered the place up. FFS it was supposed to be a beer festival and it was very cramped because there was all these lads only interested in a Match and buying regular beer from the main bar, which had other TV's by the way. This was a total ballsup in my opinion and totally ruined the occasion for me. If ye get to talk to these guys can you first of all congratulate them for actually trying this but get them to be a bit more organised the next time.

noby

Firstly, I agree they shold be congratulated for trying this.

About the menus, I'm not sure what happened there, but they seemed to be as rare as hen's teeth. We tried to hold on to a couple to give to people looking for them, but we even had difficulty getting them. They should have been more plentiful, or offered to people at the entrance.
The breweries were not allowed hang signs or banners on the wall behind their bars. Most were hung on the front of the bars, which meant they were easily lost once a crowd built up.
I agree that showing the match was not ideal, and while it may have drawn a crowd it wasn't a beer fest crowd.

Hopefully all these things can be learned from for next year.

the long finger

new to the site(and home brew) so be patient.....

Can micro breweries sell their produce directly to the public from the brewery or do they need a pub licience???

Is their much in the way of legislation involved in setting up even on a small scale...Are home breweries a posibility or are there to many obstacles to setting up a small operation???