Botulism outbreak claims life of heroin user in Dublin

Kipperhell

boring_job_guy wrote: »

Another easily preventable death.

And another "victory" for America's "abstainance only" approach to drugs (which we blindly follow).

during prohibition in america thousands died coz of contamined alcohol, not so high and mighty now....eh?

This wouldn't have happened if it was quality controlled like in switzerland.

I am pretty sure the "abstinence only " rule is a result of the opium wars more so than anything to do with the US.

There will always be idiots and addicts and I don't exclude myself from them.

Dudess

Ah Shane, I wouldn't be surprised if people hadn't heard of Katy French.

Licksy wrote: »

Yet you readily berate people for being 'ignorant' of something you clearly say they can never know? Boggle.

Well no... I was coming from the perspective that it's ignorant to make assumptions and sweeping statements without anything to back it up, and without knowing what one is talking about. Hardly that mind boggling...

Stabshauptmann

boring_job_guy wrote: »

Otherwise there'd be no more problems with it than tobacoo (which is equally addictive).

You know, I'd heard that so many times that when I met a recovered heroin addict it was one of the first things I asked him. He said it was one of the most ludicrous and idiotic things hes ever heard.

He did say that he never succeeded in giving up the fags, but that was because he hadnt the motivation to give them up. He was at the stage where if he didnt give up heroin he would die, so he did.

The thing that really struck me was that Id never have guessed he was a former junkie. Id known him a few months before I found any of this out.

Jesus1222

Nobody deserves to die just because they've taken heroin. The people who spew out the "junkie scum" line any time drugs are mentioned are very impressionable I feel. They don't think for themselves and are also probably quite religious. It's something they've learned at home or in their environment.

cornbb

ordinary_story wrote: »

Its human nature, we laugh at other peoples misfortune, Laurel and Hardy wouldnt have been successful if people werent so amused by watching other people get hurt.

The overwhelming attitude here is "I dont take heroine so therefore I'm not affected by this. I am more fortunate/better than those that do"

You can argue that we should be tolerant and have sympathy but it may be easier to accept that life is not fair and people are generally assholes

Absolute rubbish, there is currently a thread in the Galway forum mourning the death of a 19 year old guy in a road accident today. Possibly a guy who caused the accident through his own careless driving. People are generally sympathetic towards others misfortunes, but prejudice quickly clouds that over in many unfortunate cases.

This girl was 17, she was a CHILD, it is likely that her habit started before she reached an age where no-one could possibly understand the potential consequences of taking a drug like heroin.

Dudess

Deleted User wrote: »

lol what a useless bastard, would hate to be his sister

I would also - because she was gang-raped. Well she's dead now - killed herself. I see you just skimmed over my point that heroin withdrawal is actually physically painful as well as making the addict violently sick.

Kipperhell

shane86 wrote: »

How? You arent the first person I have heard say this, and it baffles me, as even if (like me) you had zero interest in her private life or whatever shop she was opening, fact is she was in the paper 7 days a week for 8 or 9 months before her death.

Katie French was not in the media that much before her death. Only the tabloids had her in them all the time or sport/social sections did. So if you actually read a "news" paper you wouldn't have known about her. I had no idea who she was other than an occasional picture but I would have recognised the Fas girl before Katie French.

brow_601

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

I disagree, Id never heard about katie french before she died.

+1 neither had I

boring_job_guy

boring_job_guy wrote: »

no, but it's their regime that caused the death. Otherwise users would have just taken their safe, quality controlled heroin (and medical grade heroin is quite safe- they give it to cancer patients) and death-rates would drop drastically.

hang on heroin cures cancer and the US are to blame for our junkies dying?

Dudess wrote: »

Once again, the usual judgemental, heartless, hypocritical high-horse mounting from people who haven't got a clue what they're on about and no doubt plenty of them go out and get absolutely smashed at least one night a week and may develop alcoholism in years to come, or serious liver problems, and ruin the lives of those around them... but that's ok, because alcohol is legal.

get over it, this is after hours ffs. Actually I would even go so far as to say alcohol causes more problems in Ireland than Heroin does, but like you say its legal. Maybe if we legalise heroin our heroin related problems will disappear in the same way??

We could make everything legal and live in crime free bliss

0ubliette

cornbb wrote: »

There are lots of things that people do/take in life that can kill them, and yet we don't demonise them as "junkie scum".

Why don't we demonise rock stars or celebrities that spend their lives taking heroin? William S. Burroughs was a heroin addict for 50 years and he is only remembered as a brilliant author. Think of Kurt Cobain, etc. You lot are not lashing out at a drug: you are lashing out at one of Ireland's poorest, most vulnerable social castes and using the drug as a hollow excuse.

I don't get it, what are people being so callous and blaseé about a young woman they know virtually nothing about, except for the fact that she habitually injected a substance into her arm? Did it occur to any of you that maybe she brought some form of good to the world?

Edit:

+1,000,000, I'm a glutton for punishment

Did William Burroughs or Kurt Cobain ever mug you with a syringe?
Your argument is retarded.
Go to Tara St. Station any day of the week and see how much good smackheads bring into the world. Take a walk down the alley behind liberty hall and when you get mugged with a syringe, youll see just how much good they bring into the world, and that yeah, people really only hate them because theyre poor and homeless and ewww they smell bad, i need to go home to my mansion in dalkey for a shower and some champagne etc..

havana

havana wrote: »

Why why why do i continue to open these threads. I know as i'm doing it i'm going to regret it. Some people make me despair for the human race. And i'm not talking about the 'junkies' here.

open the threads somewhere else, its afterhours what do you expect

Stabshauptmann

shane86 wrote: »

How? You arent the first person I have heard say this, and it baffles me, as even if (like me) you had zero interest in her private life or whatever shop she was opening, fact is she was in the paper 7 days a week for 8 or 9 months before her death. Unless you completely cut yourself off from all print media I find it very surprising you never heard of her.

Because everyone reads the tabloids? :rolleyes:

Its only in the last month that I started getting the metro, before that I walked to work. I read (as part of my job) the Financial Times and the Sunday Business Post - Id be honestly amazed if you told me she was in either of those.

Speaking of the metro, I am aware that there are pictures in it and a show biz section, but I dont see them. I never heard of Hancock until i was sitting in the cinema before it came on and it apparently had one of the biggest advertising campaigns of all the recent movies. Its very easy to tune this **** out. There was a celebrities related conversation in the canteen over lunch today, but Ive no idea what the conversation was about because I dont care.

I can only name one model, Samantha Mumba, and thats only because she was in a film in Ireland. Edit. Apparently shes not really a model, she's famous for being a singer

Terry

Dudess wrote: »

It's totally a case of whether it's legal or not - the people here who regularly moralise about drug use never express any outrage about binge-drinking. In fact they condone it.
And don't tell me some kid whose illiterate mother had him when she was 16 and offers him a home with absolutely zero stability and often neglects him and he lives in extreme poverty and squalour and has dropped out of school barely into his teens... don't tell me that kid isn't a victim and is strong enough to refuse or resist heroin.

It's extremely arrogant and ignorant of people here to think "oh if I were him I'd just flat out refuse to take it". Like you'd fukking know...

And you know?
Using the poverty angle is really ****ing lame.
It comes back to the 'poor little timmy didn't know any better' arguement.

I don't care who you are or where you came from. Everyone knows that the majority of people who take heroin on a regular basis will become addicted.

With that addiction comes the associated scumbaggery.

If you want to go down that path, then **** off down it, but don't expect me to have any sympathy for you when you are lying in a gutter and crying out for your next hit.

There is only one legal drug as addictive as heroin and it's not alcohol, despite what people here would have you believe.
The majority of people in this country can have a few drinks at the weekend and it doesn't consume their lives. That's why alcohol is legal and heroin isn't.

Yeah, your mate John took it once and it didn't kill him and he didn't become addicted.
Here's the thing, if he was to continue to take it, even once a week, he would end up hooked on it.

Armchair weed smokers really piss me off.
You all think you know everything about heroin because someone told you a story about it once when you were stoned.

Get the **** back to your cosy little middle class suburb and read up a bit more about it and the effects it takes on people's lives.

That guy on the street pointing a syringe at you is robbing you to feed his addiction and he would still do it if heroin was legal.
The only thing on the mind of a heroin addict is where their next fix is coming from and don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise.

you are all too ready to accept government warnings about alcohol, but when they warn you about heroin, your little minds tell you that they must be lying. ****ing double standards.

It's an insidious poison that will consume the life of anyone who takes it regularly and no amount of bull**** you read on some stoner website will change that.

If you are foolish enough to take it enough to get hooked, then you deserve no sympathy. The same way smokers deserve no sympathy.

All I see here is people bitching and moaning about someone smoking a cigarette and blowing the smoke in their faces as they walk by.

Think about that the next time someone holds a syringe to your neck weigh up the differences and tell me which is worse.

Do you feel sorry for the junkie who just robbed your house and took your playstation?
Like **** you do.

Get real and see this drug for what it is.

Remember that there are over 10,000 heroin addicts in the Dublin area alone. They didn't become addicts by accident or because their mammy didn't love them.
They became addicts because they were stupid enough to take that crap in the first place.

I have no sympathy for them at all and people who do or people who try to justify their addiction are complete tools who know absolutely nothing about the situation or are too blinkered to see the truth right in front of them.

cornbb wrote: »

There are lots of things that people do/take in life that can kill them, and yet we don't demonise them as "junkie scum".

Why don't we demonise rock stars or celebrities that spend their lives taking heroin? William S. Burroughs was a heroin addict for 50 years and he is only remembered as a brilliant author. Think of Kurt Cobain, etc. You lot are not lashing out at a drug: you are lashing out at one of Ireland's poorest, most vulnerable social castes and using the drug as a hollow excuse.

I don't get it, what are people being so callous and blaseé about a young woman they know virtually nothing about, except for the fact that she habitually injected a substance into her arm? Did it occur to any of you that maybe she brought some form of good to the world?

Edit:

+1,000,000, I'm a glutton for punishment

**** kurt Cobain.
He might have been talented, but he was still stupid enough to get hooked.

boring_job_guy

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

You know, I'd heard that so many times that when I met a recovered heroin addict it was one of the first things I asked him. He said it was one of the most ludicrous and idiotic things hes ever heard.

He did say that he never succeeded in giving up the fags, but that was because he hadnt the motivation to give them up. He was at the stage where if he didnt give up heroin he would die, so he did.

The thing that really struck me was that Id never have guessed he was a former junkie. Id known him a few months before I found any of this out.

Statistacally tobacco is as addictive as heroin, i've never been addicted to either so i don't know for sure, but that's what i was told.

The fact that he never gave up cigarettes doesn't prove that they're easier to give up.

havana

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

You know, I'd heard that so many times that when I met a recovered heroin addict it was one of the first things I asked him. He said it was one of the most ludicrous and idiotic things hes ever heard.

He did say that he never succeeded in giving up the fags, but that was because he hadnt the motivation to give them up. He was at the stage where if he didnt give up heroin he would die, so he did.

The thing that really struck me was that Id never have guessed he was a former junkie. Id known him a few months before I found any of this out.

Yet many on here would have written him off and hoped he'd wiped himself out before he got himself clean.

as for the heroin/tobacco debate. I assume this is coming from the fact that heroin itself is a generally clean drug. Its the adulterants, lifestyle and poor injecting practices that cause many of the problems for people

Dudess

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually I would even go so far as to say alcohol causes more problems in Ireland than Heroin does, but like you say its legal. Maybe if we legalise heroin our heroin related problems will disappear in the same way??

We could make everything legal and live in crime free bliss

Yeah, it would help reduce or even end gangland crime. It would prevent heroin being cut with poison also.

0ubliette wrote: »

Did William Burroughs or Kurt Cobain ever mug you with a syringe?
Your argument is retarded.
Go to Tara St. Station any day of the week and see how much good smackheads bring into the world. Take a walk down the alley behind liberty hall and when you get mugged with a syringe, youll see just how much good they bring into the world, and that yeah, people really only hate them because theyre poor and homeless and ewww they smell bad, i need to go home to my mansion in dalkey for a shower and some champagne etc..

Oh wait... thought we were talking about taking the drug here, not what it causes the addict to do. Back along the thread I see the "they're idiots for taking it" line on a loop. So the Burroughs/Cobain point is extremely valid, not "retarded", because they were stupid enough to take the drug and knew the consequences etc, yet they're not the objects of such venom. They had money so they didn't NEED to go out mugging to finance their habits.

cornbb

0ubliette wrote: »

Did William Burroughs or Kurt Cobain ever mug you with a syringe?
Your argument is retarded.
Go to Tara St. Station any day of the week and see how much good smackheads bring into the world. Take a walk down the alley behind liberty hall and when you get mugged with a syringe, youll see just how much good they bring into the world, and that yeah, people really only hate them because theyre poor and homeless and ewww they smell bad, i need to go home to my mansion in dalkey for a shower and some champagne etc..

Did this 17 year old girl ever mug you with a syringe?

My argument is retarded? I'm well aware that junkies mug people. What argument are you trying to make? I've never been to Dalkey in my life.

Jesus1222

0ubliette wrote: »

Did William Burroughs or Kurt Cobain ever mug you with a syringe?
Your argument is retarded.
Go to Tara St. Station any day of the week and see how much good smackheads bring into the world. Take a walk down the alley behind liberty hall and when you get mugged with a syringe, youll see just how much good they bring into the world, and that yeah, people really only hate them because theyre poor and homeless and ewww they smell bad, i need to go home to my mansion in dalkey for a shower and some champagne etc..

I often walk down that laneway and have never never been mugged. Nobody is saying heroin is groovy and that addicts are actually quite jolly. It's a terrible problem. People like you have a hate filled attitude towards them which is wrong.

Dudess

Dudess wrote: »

Yeah, it would help reduce or even end gangland crime. It would prevent heroin being cut with poison also.

of course it would end crime, there would be no laws to break if we got rid of them

shane86

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

Because everyone reads the tabloids? :rolleyes:

I dont buy any papers, I read what is lying around work or what the houemates buy. Metro, Indo, Sunday Tribune, occasionally Sunday Times, the *ugh* *spits* Sunday Indo. She appeared in all of the above multiple times. Fair enough, despite being mainly a soccer fan with a general interest in others like boxing, I am completely tuned out to rugby (once told a French girl my name and she said "ah! Like, Shane Horgan?" I quite litreally asked her to remind me who he was, which surprised her somewhat), but I find it unbelieveable that someone could have went around for 10 odd months last year without having ever heard of her unless they completely shut themselves off from all non financial media.

I can only name one model, Samantha Mumba, and thats only because she was in a film in Ireland. Edit. Apparently shes not really a model, she's famous for being a singer

You really arent big on popular culture are you?


Anyway, again, was this user actually 17?

Jesus1222

Terry wrote: »

Armchair weed smokers really piss me off.
You all think you know everything about heroin because someone told you a story about it once when you were stoned.
If you are foolish enough to take it enough to get hooked, then you deserve no sympathy. The same way smokers deserve no sympathy.

Much anger, I see. Do you have sympathy for lung cancers sufferers? Not even on their death bed?

It has nothing to do with weed. Nobody is saying heroin is cool and you should take it. People who are hooked on heroin deserve at least some sympathy. It's a living hell and they will die very young. It's a life I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. They might annoy the ****e out of you bugging you for change or put you off your dinner with the putrid smell sometimes, that's natural, but on some human level you have to have sympathy.

Terry

Deleted User wrote: »

hang on heroin cures cancer and the US are to blame for our junkies dying?



get over it, this is after hours ffs. Actually I would even go so far as to say alcohol causes more problems in Ireland than Heroin does, but like you say its legal. Maybe if we legalise heroin our heroin related problems will disappear in the same way??

We could make everything legal and live in crime free bliss

Yeah, legalise heroin and the junkies will stop stealing.

Or we could give it away free.

Here's an idea. Everyone could do it without any consequences and we would all be blissfully happy and not ever worry again.

boring_job_guy

Terry wrote: »

That guy on the street pointing a syringe at you is robbing you to feed his addiction and he would still do it if heroin was legal

Wrong. Heroin is dirt cheap to produce. €5 a day would easily cover as much as an addict could ever possibly want. There's no need to mug people for such a tiny amount of money.

You don't see people mugging for cigarettes, i doubt it would happen very often for legal heroin.

btw in a certain country muggings (and petty crime in general) dropped substantially when prescription heroin was brought in. Not only that, but the addicts were then able to get jobs and get their lives back on track instead of spending all day on the streets looking for their next fix.

cornbb

Terry wrote: »

It comes back to the 'poor little timmy didn't know any better' arguement.

What about a child that takes heroin, can they be held accountable for their actions?

The majority of people in this country can have a few drinks at the weekend and it doesn't consume their lives. That's why alcohol is legal and heroin isn't.

I would argue that the cumulative negative affect of alcohol addiction in this country is far greater than the affects of heroin addiction, which is more or less confined to dublin city centre. Alcohol gives us domestic violence, fights, stabbings, accidental drownings, road-traffic accidents, alcohol-induced murders, congestion of A&E departments, broken families, the list goes on.

Terry

Jesus1222 wrote: »

Much anger, I see. Do you have sympathy for lung cancers sufferers? Not even on their death bed?

It has nothing to do with weed. Nobody is saying heroin is cool and you should take it. People who are hooked on heroin deserve at least some sympathy. It's a living hell and they will die very young. It's a life I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. They might annoy the ****e out of you bugging you for change or put you off your dinner with the putrid smell sometimes, that's natural, but on some human level you have to have sympathy.

No, I have no sympathy for people with lung cancer, but only if it's tobacco related.

I wouldn't expect anyone to have sympathy for me when I eventually get it from my 40 a day habit.

I made the decision to start smoking.

I could have taken heroin when I was 13, but I didn't. Wanna know why?
Because I ****ing knew I would get addicted.

Big pat on the back for me and no sympathy whatsoever for the idiots who chose to take it.

havana

Deleted User wrote: »

open the threads somewhere else, its afterhours what do you expect

Very true but unfortunately such narrow minded views aren't restricted to after hours

Terry

cornbb wrote: »

What about a child that takes heroin, can they be held accountable for their actions?

Yes. I knew from a young age that it messes you up. Did you?
If you grow up in an environment where heroin is prevalent, then you are even more aware of the effects it has on people's lives.

I would argue that the cumulative negative affect of alcohol addiction in this country is far greater than the affects of heroin addiction, which is more or less confined to dublin city centre. Alcohol gives us domestic violence, fights, stabbings, accidental drownings, road-traffic accidents, alcohol-induced murders, congestion of A&E departments, broken families, the list goes on.

I would argue that because the majority of adults in this country drink alcohol, that those statistics are inevitably going to be higher.

I would also argue that heroin brings the same problems.

As for it being confined to Dublin city centre, you really need to get out more.

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/mum-shoplifted-to-feed-children-1559180.html
Second article.
Guy lives around the corner from me and both him and his brother are junkies.
They also have many junkie friends around the area.

Jesus1222

Terry wrote: »

No, I have no sympathy for people with lung cancer, but only if it's tobacco related.

None whatsoever? You'd walk down to the hospice, go to someone's death bed (due to lung cancer), watch them in agony and struggling to breath, coughing up blood and you'd just say "**** em"?

I think you're lying.

spurious

cornbb wrote: »

What about a child that takes heroin, can they be held accountable for their actions?

What about a child whose first taste of heroin was in the womb, do they get the same vitriol when the addiction they were born with and suffering the damage from comes back and grabs them in their teens?

There is a whole generation of 'junkies' out there who were born to using mothers.

I am pie

Poverty doesn't cause people to become addicts. Poverty, despair, isolation , disenfranchisement and any myriad of other factors like lack of education / awareness do. Possibly an addict knows it'll kill them in the end, maybe nihilism is the only way out of a particularly sh1tty situation. I don't know. You don't know. I don't poverty is being offered up as a cause of addiction, however it is being latched onto for the purposes of a spot of soap box polemic.

On a human level it'd be nice if we could rise above celebrating the death of other people, some people are maybe a little to wrapped up in their own self-important morality, maybe a little too quick to laugh and judge. Lets hope it's never us on the other end of that sharp and sh1tty stick wondering how the fk we got there.

It's got nothing to do with being this class or that class. Get a grip.

I'm no bleedin heart liberal. I'd love never to see another addict on the street. I hate seeing them..i wish they could be taken off the streets and rehabilitated. I dunno how alas. Sounds like we have a few on here who walk past an addict and wish them dead, which is altogether spiteful.

If as someone suggested there are 10000 addicts in Dublin we should be allocating more resources to the problem. Unfortunately it can't be ignored, it significantly contributes to crime and anti-social behaviour. I don't know how the problem can be solved but there are certainly betters ways to go about it than 'fuk em'...'let em die' etc etc etc.

Dudess

Terry wrote: »

And you know?
Using the poverty angle is really ****ing lame.

And there's nothing wrong with it because it's valid. I don't know, I just prefer to take things on a case-by-case basis rather than being rigidly black-and-white. I guess I just can't understand the mindset of "that person was found dead on a street corner but FUK them, they knew what they were doing when they first took heroin". I guess I'm just bearing in mind that people do stupid things, even stuff they know is stupid - being young, immature, selfish, naive, wanting to be rebels, believing they're invincible, genuinely believing "ah no harm in trying it out just the once" (which was the case with me and smoking when I was 14 - and I'm sure the case with countless others) and then they regret it intensely five or 10 years later - I don't know, call me foolish for having sympathy for people like that.
I guess I don't like being judgemental in these situations and I'd prefer to consider the person's background story before leaping in with "they were stupid enough to take it in the first place".
/shrug

I don't care who you are or where you came from. Everyone knows that the majority of people who take heroin on a regular basis will become addicted.

There's no talking to a lot of 13-year-olds. Please, just open your mind and be a bit more flexible.

With that addiction comes the associated scumbaggery.

No doubt about it there is scumbaggery - however what I'm referring to is people becoming sick and dying. I find it despicable to believe they don't deserve sympathy.

Yeah, your mate John took it once and it didn't kill him and he didn't become addicted.
Here's the thing, if he was to continue to take it, even once a week, he would end up hooked on it.

Meh, I never once gave any indication I've a story like that. I don't disagree that heroin is an extremely addictive drug, with people majorly craving it after one smoke, then the effects of smoking start to wear off so they move on to injecting. Here's the thing though: many people AREN'T aware that they'll get to the point where smoking won't do anything for them. That's why they succumb to the addiction. I doubt everyone wants to use a needle when they first get into it.

Armchair weed smokers really piss me off.
You all think you know everything about heroin because someone told you a story about it once when you were stoned.

Again, not applicable to me.

Get the **** back to your cosy little middle class suburb and read up a bit more about it and the effects it takes on people's lives.

Wow, the aggression is phenomenal.
Anyhoo, all these "I'd just refuse to take it" bullsh1t comments are also very much indicative of people who come from cosy, middle-class backgrounds as they seem to have zero grip on reality.

That guy on the street pointing a syringe at you is robbing you to feed his addiction and he would still do it if heroin was legal.
The only thing on the mind of a heroin addict is where their next fix is coming from and don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise.

Of course. I never said it wasn't.

you are all too ready to accept government warnings about alcohol

"All"? Strange that, considering I'm constantly hearing about our binge-drinking culture.

but when they warn you about heroin, your little minds tell you that they must be lying.

"Lying"? Oh please... Just because I and others think the callousness and lack of compassion towards a teenage girl dying due to heroin is disgusting, doesn't mean we think heroin's actually ok and all the horror stories are lies. FFS... :rolleyes:

Do you feel sorry for the junkie who just robbed your house and took your playstation?
Like **** you do.

Damn straight I wouldn't. I would however consider the drug addiction a reason for him/her doing it. And I'd have a lot more sympathy for them than a scumbag who robbed my house but DIDN'T have an addiction.

Remember that there are over 10,000 heroin addicts in the Dublin area alone. They didn't become addicts by accident or because their mammy didn't love them.
They became addicts because they were stupid enough to take that crap in the first place.

Along with loads of other factors, including their mammy not loving them.

I have no sympathy for them at all and people who do or people who try to justify their addiction are complete tools who know absolutely nothing about the situation or are too blinkered to see the truth right in front of them.

Ah yes, more generalisations. Great arguing tool.

Stabshauptmann

boring_job_guy wrote: »

Statistacally tobacco is as addictive as heroin, i've never been addicted to either so i don't know for sure, but that's what i was told.

The fact that he never gave up cigarettes doesn't prove that they're easier to give up.

You've completely misunderstood me.

The tobacco - heroin comparison stems from, I think, the relative numbers of those who try to give up an succeed.

Now assuming the same % of people succeed in giving up fags and heroin, that doesnt meant they are equally addictive. It actually suggests that heroin is more addictive - despite the enormous benefits of giving it up compared to cigs, it doesnt have a higher success rate.

What happened to this guy is that he was in an accident, had had major surgery, his body was in complete **** and if he didnt give up heroin he was going to die. He told me about the withdrawal, cravings and how difficult and painful it was. He did it because if he didnt he would have died. Had he not been hospitalised, he might not have succeeded.

When he tried to give up the fags, he found it a bit hard and thought to himself, have I that much to gain? Then said **** it, meh.

From hearing the experience of a man who tried to give up both, and some basic ****ing logic, there I dont believe the two are comparable.

sam34

Dudess wrote: »

Once again, the usual judgemental, heartless, hypocritical high-horse mounting from people who haven't got a clue what they're on about and no doubt plenty of them go out and get absolutely smashed at least one night a week and may develop alcoholism in years to come, or serious liver problems, and ruin the lives of those around them... but that's ok, because alcohol is legal.

how are you so confident that these people "havent got a clue what theyre talking about"? .bit of a sweeping generalisation there. maybe they have witnessed siblings/partners/friends become junkies and as such have developed firm opinions regarding it. maybe they themselves have been users in teh past... there's noone quite as zealous as the reformed addict.

or perhaps, like myself, they've been at the front line in psychiatric wards and have seen over and over again addicts who use every excuse in the book to justify their ongoing drug use, but who never seem to accept personal responsibility for their actions. they believe they are addicts because mammy didnt love them/granny died/they were bullied/their friends influenced them/the weather was bad/yadda yadda yadda... when the reality is they are addicts because they kept popping/snorting/smoking/injecting. noone else forced them to do it.

Dudess wrote: »

It's totally a case of whether it's legal or not - the people here who regularly moralise about drug use never express any outrage about binge-drinking. In fact they condone it.
QUOTE]

again, a sweeping generalisation.
and i see nothing wrong about being outraged at illegal activity. but a lot of people who use drugs dont like to be reminded that what they're doing is illegal.they'd just prefer to think of themselves as liberal and the rest of us as puritannical prudes who are secretely jealous of all the "fun" they're having.

and a lot of people who disapprove of drug atking ahve the same attitude to binge-drinking

Dudess wrote: »

Ah Shane, I wouldn't be surprised if people hadn't heard of Katy French.
Well no... I was coming from the perspective that it's ignorant to make assumptions and sweeping statements without anything to back it up, and without knowing what one is talking about. Hardly that mind boggling...

so you don't approve of sweeping statements? oh wait...

rubadub

shane86 wrote: »

How? You arent the first person I have heard say this, and it baffles me, as even if (like me) you had zero interest in her private life or whatever shop she was opening, fact is she was in the paper 7 days a week for 8 or 9 months before her death.

Never heard of her before either, I might well have seen her in the metro but not known her name and didn't recognise her face.

cornbb wrote: »

Why don't we demonise rock stars or celebrities that spend their lives taking heroin? William S. Burroughs was a heroin addict for 50 years and he is only remembered as a brilliant author. Think of Kurt Cobain, etc.

Many people cannot accept that their could possibly be functional addicts of illegal drugs. And they cannot accept that people could be addicted yet take it in small controlled doses, like many heroin addicted doctors do, who can obtain a pure clean, dose-controlled supply. Some would call Winston Churchill an alcoholic and have no problem accepting him as "functional", and of course there are countless functional nicotine addicts.

Now this may come as a shock to some people, but scumbags who mug you might actually use your money to purchase legal drugs which they are addicted to.

The fact is people think every single heroin addict looks like the junkie on the street. They are the only OBVIOUS heroin addicts they have seen. If alcohol was illegal and none of your mates took it you would probably presume all alcoholics were like begging winos, sitting in their own piss & puke out of their minds all day. If you got mugged by a drunk you would then brand them all robbing scumbags. And if they died from contaminated poitin you would probably have no sympathy. But alcohol is legal, and your mammy does like a glass of wine with dinner, so if you heard of somebody dying from illegally drinking contaminated poitin you probably would not feel the same. Even though they had taken illegal drugs.

Terry

Jesus1222 wrote: »

None whatsoever? You'd walk down to the hospice, go to someone's death bed (due to lung cancer), watch them in agony and struggling to breath, coughing up blood and you'd just say "**** em"?

I think you're lying.

Well I wouldn't actually go into the hospice and say that. I do have a sense of decorum.
There's a time and a place for ranting about addicts, but a hospice is not one of those places.

Dudess wrote: »

And there's nothing wrong with it because it's valid. I don't know, I just prefer to take things on a case-by-case basis rather than being rigidly black-and-white. I guess I just can't understand the mindset of "that person was found dead on a street corner but FUK them, they knew what they were doing when they first took heroin". I guess I'm just bearing in mind that people do stupid things, even stuff they know is stupid - being young, immature, selfish, naive, wanting to be rebels, believing they're invincible, genuinely believing "ah no harm in trying it out just the once" (which was the case with me and smoking when I was 14 - and I'm sure the case with countless others) and then they regret it intensely five or 10 years later - I don't know, call me foolish for having sympathy for people like that.
I guess I don't like being judgemental in these situations and I'd prefer to consider the person's background story before leaping in with "they were stupid enough to take it in the first place".
/shrug

There's no talking to a lot of 13-year-olds. Please, just open your mind and be a bit more flexible.

No doubt about it there is scumbaggery - however what I'm referring to is people becoming sick and dying. I find it despicable to believe they don't deserve sympathy.

Meh, I never once gave any indication I've a story like that. I wouldn't argue that heroin is an extremely addictive drug, with people majorly craving it after one smoke, then the effects of smoking start to wear off so they move on to injecting. Here's the thing though: many people AREN'T aware that they'll get to the point where smoking won't do anything for them. That's why they succumb to the addiction. I doubt everyone wants to use a needle when they first get into it.

Again, not applicable to me.

Wow, the aggression is phenomenal.
Anyhoo, all these "I'd just refuse to take it" bullsh1t comments are also very much indicative of people who come from cosy, middle-class backgrounds as they seem to have zero grip on reality.

Of course. I never said it wasn't.

"All"? Strange that, considering I'm constantly hearing about our binge-drinking culture.

"Lying"? Oh please... Just because I and others think the callousness and lack of compassion towards a teenage girl dying due to heroin is disgusting, doesn't mean we think heroin's actually ok and all the horror stories are lies. FFS... :rolleyes:

Damn straight I wouldn't. I would however consider the drug addiction a reason for him/her doing it. And I'd have a lot more sympathy for them than a scumbag who robbed my house but DIDN'T have an addiction.

Along with loads of other factors, including their mammy not loving them.

Ah yes, generalisation central. Great arguing tool.

I'm not going to reply to the whole post there.
I'll just say that only the first part of that post was a mild reference to your post and the rest was a general rant.

cornbb

Terry wrote: »

Yes. I knew from a young age that it messes you up. Did you?
If you grow up in an environment where heroin is prevalent, then you are even more aware of the effects it has on people's lives.

Yes, I was aware of that, but I don't think a person of 13 is mature enough to make the correct life-choices all the time.

I would argue that because the majority of adults in this country drink alcohol, that those statistics are inevitably going to be higher.

Just because more people drink alcohol doesn't mean that the effects of alcohol-related problems should somehow be more forgiveable than heroin-related problems.

Should the negative effects of one drug be more forgiveable than the negative effects of another, simply because one is legal and the other is not, or because one is socially acceptable and the other is stigmatised?

As for it being confined to Dublin city centre, you really need to get out more.

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/mum-shoplifted-to-feed-children-1559180.html
Second article.
Guy lives around the corner from me and both him and his brother are junkies.
They also have many junkie friends around the area.

I said largely confined. I'm aware that heroin is used all over the country. I still think my point about alcohol problems being more prevalent stands - alcohol-related problems are far more pervasive than heroin problems, and although maybe they are not as individually hard-hitting, I think they have a bigger cumulative effect.

Stabshauptmann

havana wrote: »

Yet many on here would have written him off and hoped he'd wiped himself out before he got himself clean.

Bear in mind this was a good friend of mine; from what he told me about what he used to do, I would have had no sympathy for him the time of his accident if Id known him or if he died. As it happened it was a turning point in his life.

as for the heroin/tobacco debate. I assume this is coming from the fact that heroin itself is a generally clean drug. Its the adulterants, lifestyle and poor injecting practices that cause many of the problems for people

I think you've your info mixed up. Pure heroin wont make you sick / decrepit looking - but you'd get addicted even faster, and the addiction is not comparable to a tobacco addiction from what I hear

cornbb

rubadub wrote: »

Many people cannot accept that their could possibly be functional addicts of illegal drugs. And they cannot accept that people could be addicted yet take it in small controlled doses, like many heroin addicted doctors do, who can obtain a pure clean, dose-controlled supply. Some would call Winston Churchill an alcoholic and have no problem accepting him as "functional", and of course there are countless functional nicotine addicts.

Yep. Its a fairly-well accepted fact that a heroin addict can live a long and normal life as long as they can afford the habit.

The fact is people think every single heroin addict looks like the junkie on the street. They are the only OBVIOUS heroin addicts they have seen. If alcohol was illegal and none of your mates took it you would probably presume all alcoholics were like begging winos, sitting in their own piss & puke out of their minds all day. If you got mugged by a drunk you would then brand them all robbing scumbags. And if they died from contaminated poitin you would probably have no sympathy. But alcohol is legal, and your mammy does like a glass of wine with dinner, so if you heard of somebody dying from illegally drinking contaminated poitin you probably would not feel the same. Even though they had taken illegal drugs.

Good analogy.

Jesus1222

Terry wrote: »

Well I wouldn't actually go into the hospice and say that. I do have a sense of decorum.
There's a time and a place for ranting about addicts, but a hospice is not one of those places

That's not quite the point I was making. I was making the point that in principle, you WOULD have sympathy for somebody in that situation. Therefore in principle, you SHOULD have sympathy for a chronic heroin addict.

Dudess

sam34 wrote: »

how are you so confident that these people "havent got a clue what theyre talking about"?

I'll tell you how I'm so confident: they're not heroin addicts so they don't know how hellish it is.

or perhaps, like myself, they've been at the front line in psychiatric wards and have seen over and over again addicts who use every excuse in the book to justify their ongoing drug use, but who never seem to accept personal responsibility for their actions. they believe they are addicts because mammy didnt love them/granny died/they were bullied/their friends influenced them/the weather was bad/yadda yadda yadda... when the reality is they are addicts because they kept popping/snorting/smoking/injecting. noone else forced them to do it.

I'm not arguing against that... I'm just saying we need to consider the circumstances of each case rather than just being black and white about it.
And also, who's to say some kid WASN'T coerced into taking it?

again, a sweeping generalisation.

Well it's a generalisation based on what I've observed here sam, as that's all I'm referring to. There generally ISN'T condemnation of getting smashed on alcohol here.

and i see nothing wrong about being outraged at illegal activity.

Not the point I'm making. People get all moralistic about the physical damage heroin does, but not the physical damage excessive alcohol consumption does... and the reason for that is: alcohol's legal. Yet physical damage is physical damage.

they'd just prefer to think of... the rest of us as puritannical prudes who are secretely jealous of all the "fun" they're having.

I would say that's actually applicable to some vehemently anti-drug people.

Terry

I honestly cannot believe people are justifying the use of heroin and comparing it to alcohol, which while it can be addictive, is not always. Heroin on the other hand will drag everyone in.

I'm done for the moment.
I just can't get my head around any justification for regular heroin abuse.

Wertz

So basically heroin junkies deserve to die....that's the crux of this thread?

Why bother waiting for the botullism to get them at all? Why don't we just go out and shoot them now and save all the trouble? If necessary we could have a convention afterwards where people could point and laugh at the corpses and share witty one liners they picked up and generally be arseholes to their hearts' content.

Terry, you bring a lot of baggage to this thread...I too have had friends and acquaintances who went on to heroin, as a seemingly natural progression from dope, E's etc and of course booze...and I was of the opinion "f*ck them it's their life, silly bastards" and left them to it...that doesn't mean I want them to die, it doesn't mean that if and when they died that I didn't go to pay my respects...they were foolish to get involved with the drug, that is unquestionable...but do you honestly believe that for that they deserve to die of something that wouldn't normally even be associated with heroin usage? If you do, then you're not the person I took you for (not that you give a sh*t)

If this were at the other end of the social spectrum and it was some woman who died after the wrong dose of botulinum toxin was subcutaneously delivered to her system during a botched cosmetic op, would the same bunch of morons in this thread be as vocal in their delight at a pointless death?
It's alright though because she's just some scumbag teen who was only going to end up costing the country money and mugging us down an alley...

boring_job_guy

Terry wrote: »

That guy on the street pointing a syringe at you is robbing you to feed his addiction and he would still do it if heroin was legal.

The only thing on the mind of a heroin addict is where their next fix is coming from and don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise.

Wrong! heroin is dirt cheap to produce. €5 a day could easily buy an addict as much as they could ever possibly want. They're not going to mug people for such tiny amounts of money. You don't hear of people mugging for cigarettes that often do you?


btw, in a certain country, muggings (and petty crime in general) dropped substantially when they brought in prescription heroin. Not only that but the addicts were than able to get jobs and pick up their lives instead of spending all day on the streets looking for their next fix.

why was this post deleted first time? nothing offensive in it.

Dudess

Terry wrote: »

I honestly cannot believe people are justifying the use of heroin and comparing it to alcohol, which while it can be addictive, is not always. Heroin on the other hand will drag everyone in.

I'm done for the moment.
I just can't get my head around any justification for regular heroin abuse.

Oh for ****'s sake, nobody's justifying it. People are just appealing for a bit more compassion for people who get sick and die from it...

havana

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

Bear in mind this was a good friend of mine; from what he told me about what he used to do, I would have had no sympathy for him the time of his accident if Id known him or if he died. As it happened it was a turning point in his life.


I think you've your info mixed up. Pure heroin wont make you sick / decrepit looking - but you'd get addicted even faster, and the addiction is not comparable to a tobacco addiction from what I hear

sounds like it would have been your loss then.

and I'm not implying that pure heroin is not addictive. What i am saying is that there are also other factors that add to the difficulties of you're average heroin user.

cornbb

Terry wrote: »

I honestly cannot believe people are justifying the use of heroin and comparing it to alcohol, which while it can be addictive, is not always. Heroin on the other hand will drag everyone in.

I'm done for the moment.
I just can't get my head around any justification for regular heroin abuse.

Nobody here is justifying heroin abuse! We're saying that a "f*ck them, they deserve to die" attitude is unjustified. And I wasn't comparing the physical effects of taking alcohol to the physical effects of taking heroin, I was comparing their cumulative effects on society. Which you know I was doing, so please don't pretend otherwise. I'll be going out for pints after work but I'm not gonna be shooting up some smack...

monkey9

This whole thing is an absolute outrage, to be honest. We're now living in an age where a junkie can't inject himself or herself with heroin without the fear of death hanging over them!!
I mean, imagine it. There they are, limping down the road, a bottle of orange in their hand and a John Player Blue hanging from their mouth. Shouting "Trace-eeeey. Trays-eeeeeeeeeeeeee, Come back!!!!!". (even though Tracy is only 2 yards away from them.) Next thing they know, they're on the ground dying. Dying!!!!! Satan dressed as an empty needle ready to take his puss stained ar$e down to the depths of Hell, all because he injected himself with heroin!!
We are a nation in crisis, people! Truly, these are the last days!

havana

Terry wrote: »

I honestly cannot believe people are justifying the use of heroin and comparing it to alcohol, which while it can be addictive, is not always. Heroin on the other hand will drag everyone in.

I'm done for the moment.
I just can't get my head around any justification for regular heroin abuse.

I have not heard one person on here justify its use. I see its affects everyday and don't condone or justify its use. But i am realistic about the issue and condeming everyone you uses it will in no way help resolve the situation.

sam34

Dudess wrote: »

I'll tell you how I'm so confident: they're not heroin addicts so they don't know how hellish it is.

well, neither are you, therefore, by your own logic, you dont know what the hell you're on about either

I'm not arguing against that... I'm just saying we need to consider the circumstances of each case rather than just being black and white about it.
And also, who's to say some kid WASN'T coerced into taking it?

yeah. 'cause there are big bad bogeymen going around forcibly injecting people with heroin. :rolleyes:

Well it's a generalisation based on what I've observed here sam, as that's all I'm referring to. There generally ISN'T condemnation of getting smashed on alcohol here.

lol at how it's ok for you to generalise yet you criticise others for it
QUOTE]

Terry

Jesus1222 wrote: »

That's not quite the point I was making. I was making the point that in principle, you WOULD have sympathy for somebody in that situation. Therefore in principle, you SHOULD have sympathy for a chronic heroin addict.

I'd probably feel some sadness if it was someone I knew, but I wouldn't feel sympathy for them.
Maybe older people because smoking was seen to be cool in the past, but these days nobody can use that excuse.

Wertz wrote: »

So basically heroin junkies deserve to die....that's the crux of this thread?

Why bother waiting for the botullism to get them at all? Why don't we just go out and shoot them now and save all the trouble? If necessary we could have a convention afterwards where people could point and laugh at the corpses and share witty one liners they picked up and generally be arseholes to their hearts' content.

Terry, you bring a lot of baggage to this thread...I too have had friends and acquaintances who went on to heroin, as a seemingly natural progression from dope, E's etc and of course booze...and I was of the opinion "f*ck them it's their life, silly bastards" and left them to it...that doesn't mean I want them to die, it doesn't mean that if and when they died that I didn't go to pay my respects...they were foolish to get involved with the drug, that is unquestionable...but do you honestly believe that for that they deserve to die of something that wouldn't normally even be associated with heroin usage? If you do, then you're not the person I took you for (not that you give a sh*t)

If this were at the other end of the social spectrum and it was some woman who died after the wrong dose of botulinum toxin was subcutaneously delivered to her system during a botched cosmetic op, would the same bunch of morons in this thread be as vocal in their delight at a pointless death?
It's alright though because she's just some scumbag teen who was only going to end up costing the country money and mugging us down an alley...

I never wished death on anyone.
Like I said earlier, if someone uses heroin and gets addicted, then they deserve the consequences. If you want to read that as me wishing death on them, then so be it, but it's not what I mean.

boring_job_guy wrote: »

Wrong! heroin is dirt cheap to produce. €5 a day could easily buy an addict as much as they could ever possibly want. They're not going to mug people for such tiny amounts of money. You don't hear of people mugging for cigarettes that often do you?


btw, in a certain country, muggings (and petty crime in general) dropped substantially when they brought in prescription heroin. Not only that but the addicts were than able to get jobs and pick up their lives instead of spending all day on the streets looking for their next fix.

why was this post deleted first time? nothing offensive in it.

Do you honestly think that addicts stop at a €10 bag?
Over time you become immune to the effects and therefore need more to get the hit, or to even feel normal.
The longer you are on it, the more you need. Therefore you need more money.

Dudess wrote: »

Oh for ****'s sake, nobody's justifying it. People are just appealing for a bit more compassion for people who get sick and die from it...

I do believe that some people tried to justify legal heroin.
See above for the reasons not to legalise it.
Not to mention the fact that were it legalised, the amount of people ready to abuse that system would be immense.
Give it only to junkies?
Watch the number rise as more and more take it because they know that the government will subsidise their addiction.
You're going to be mugged by the government instead of a junkie and something like schools or hospitals will end up paying the price because the heroin addict needs their fix and there's not enough money left for things that matter.