Petition To Stop Ban!!!

Sparks

So long as you don't undermine them by being rude or abusive, grassroots support can only assist the representatives on the FCP. That's the bottom line, really. No point in having the steering wheel on a car without an engine under the bonnet.

Tribunius

bunny shooter wrote: »

Target shooting with a .223 is limited to something with at least a 1 in 9 twist with at least a 75 grain bullet (hornady springs to mind) and these cost more than 6.5x55 Swede in Lapua 139 grain Scenars.

That depends on what distance you shooting out to. Out to 500m 62grain .223/5.56mm is pretty reasonable. Out past that a heavier round would be needed. Besides there aren't any civlian ranges that offer more than 600m in ireland.

bunny shooter

Tribunius wrote: »

That depends on what distance you shooting out to. Out to 500m 62grain .223/5.56mm is pretty reasonable. Out past that a heavier round would be needed. Besides there aren't any civlian ranges that offer more than 600m in ireland.

Have you tried .204 Ruger with a 40 grain bullet at this distance (600m)? Makes .223 look pretty sad

Midlands offers 1,000 yards

Tribunius

bunny shooter wrote: »

Have you tried .204 Ruger with a 40 grain bullet at this distance (600m)? Makes .223 look pretty sad

Midlands offers 1,000 yards

No I haven't. But having a look at the specs and I can see why it would. Bigger case thus higher velocity.

Really I didn't know that. Thats pretty impressive.

BrokenSpiral

Bananaman wrote: »

I think they will all agree to not accept a ban on firearms - of any kind, that we already responsibly, own.

I think they will all accept that there isn't a problem being caused by legally held firearms - of any kind.

I think they will all agree that they do not wish to have their firearms confiscated and the Minister to announce that he has removed a threat to the public safety.

They are some very good points. The only question that really matters is whether or not legally held handguns are adding to the gun crime problem either through use by their legal owners or through their theft and subsequent use by the thieves.

If not then the ban is pointless, if legally held handguns are being stolen or used then the ban will help and should be supported by EVERYONE.

Anyone have any REAL figures on the % of guns stolen and subsequently used in crime?

bunny shooter

Tribunius wrote: »

No I haven't. But having a look at the specs and I can see why it would. Bigger case thus higher velocity.

Really I didn't know that. Thats pretty impressive.

It is a really impressive calibre and running at €28 for 20 rounds of premuim ammo it is cheaper to run than 223 on similar spec ammo, similar .223 is €36 for 20 rounds. Less powder volume than .223 if I remember right, less prone to fowling and less recoil too.

.204 Ruger bucks the wind way better than .223 too.

IRLConor

BrokenSpiral wrote: »

They are some very good points. The only question that really matters is whether or not legally held handguns are adding to the gun crime problem either through use by their legal owners or through their theft and subsequent use by the thieves.

If not then the ban is pointless, if legally held handguns are being stolen or used then the ban will help and should be supported by EVERYONE.

Anyone have any REAL figures on the % of guns stolen and subsequently used in crime?

This has been asked multiple times in the Dail but the answers are usually "Getting those figures would require disproportionate use of Garda time" or they supply figures which don't provide enough detail to make a reasoned argument either way.

One problem is that there are a bunch of things which if found in the investigation of a crime would be recorded as a handgun but which isn't a handgun for the purposes of this ban. For example, starter pistols are unlikely to be banned but if one was used in a crime it would probably be recorded as a handgun.

According to the figures given in the Dail, since handguns have been licensed again there have been 27 stolen. Now, in that period, at least 5 handguns were stolen from the Gardai. It's not clear if these were or were not included in the figures. There's no breakdown as to what type each of those 27 handguns were (fullbore, smallbore, airgun, starter pistol, humane killer, airsoft device, paintball marker, whatever) so we can't tell if it's a deliberately inflated number or one which merits a real response.

The bottom line is that unless better statistics get pulled out of PULSE nobody knows.

Trojan

I don't think banning guns held for sports use will make the slightest difference in gun crime (I'm not a gun owner).

One comment on the I-Petition: it's worded and written very poorly - will not get non-sports shooters to sign it because of the way it starts.

IRLConor

Trojan wrote: »

One comment on the I-Petition: it's worded and written very poorly - will not get non-sports shooters to sign it because of the way it starts.

My other concern is that there are a lot of duplicate entries. Is it possible for the creator of such a petition clean it up?

Perhaps the paper version will fare better.

Grizzly 45

IRLConor wrote: »

The bottom line is that unless better statistics get pulled out of PULSE nobody knows.

And this is exactly the nub of the problem.WHY is it so difficult to get an answer from PULSE??[After all we all have a PULSE number,with I ASSume our details of each gun we own or are co liscensed on in there].

So if I report my shotgun nicked in Clare and two years later it is recoverd for some reason with the serial nos intact from a scumbag in Limerick.Surely that must be cross referenced in the case in the PULSE system???Ergo nicked shotgun recoverd in Limerick serial nr matches gun reported stolen by Mr Grizz in Clare .. Close that part of case,now a statistic.Add to total database of stolen /recoverd firearms.
All in all a pretty simple piece of computor work/programme, I think?

Either PULSE is worse than everyone is letting on.Or no one wants to hit the buttons and make this info public for whatever reasons.

IRLConor

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

All in all a pretty simple piece of computor work/programme, I think?

If the user interface on the program allows for it, yes, it would be pretty easy. If the user interface doesn't allow you to search for all records referencing a certain firearm then it would be hard.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Either PULSE is worse than everyone is letting on.Or no one wants to hit the buttons and make this info public for whatever reasons.

I suspect the former.

dresden8

IRLConor wrote: »

I suspect the former.

I suspect the latter.

chem

dresden8 wrote: »

I suspect the latter.

I suspect everyone! So how do we find out? How do we get to the bottom of this 27 handguns stolen problem? Has anyone ever heard of a handgun been stolen in there area? We are a close group and im sure someone here knows of a case of someones pistol been stolen (if any have been).

dresden8

Somehow I don't think pulling 27 records from PULSE and counting those 27 records by hand would take 6 months and 300 Gardai.

If they want a hand they can blank the names and addresses and I'll devote the 10 minutes or so it would take to classify those firearms.

But that's because I'm a patriot!

The Minister is talking crap because the truth doesn't suit his agenda.

IRLConor

dresden8 wrote: »

Somehow I don't think pulling 27 records from PULSE and counting those 27 records by hand would take 6 months and 300 Gardai.

If they want a hand they can blank the names and addresses and I'll devote the 10 minutes or so it would take to classify those firearms.

But that's because I'm a patriot!

The Minister is talking crap because the truth doesn't suit his agenda.

You're presuming that once you get those 27 records they have sufficient detail in them to classify them properly.

When I first got a European Firearms Pass for a Walther KK200 .22 rifle it came back with "Walther 149" in the "Make & Model" field and "105" in the "Calibre or Gauge" field. As far as I'm aware, those details were transcribed from PULSE. I wouldn't be surprised if the 27 records would come back with similarly bogus information and need to be clarified by chasing down the paper records for the firearms.

I also would not be surprised if the PULSE records for the stolen firearms didn't match the actual firearms stolen. How many people have reported changing a firearm here and when renewal time came round the old details were on the new cert?

Also, there are probably a few of the 27 firearms which weren't in PULSE to begin with. I presume Garda firearms aren't recorded in PULSE and I wouldn't be surprised if firearms held on an authorisation or permit weren't in there either. Do firearms held by RFDs go into PULSE?

dresden8

IRLConor wrote: »

You're presuming that once you get those 27 records they have sufficient detail in them to classify them properly.

When I first got a European Firearms Pass for a Walther KK200 .22 rifle it came back with "Walther 149" in the "Make & Model" field and "105" in the "Calibre or Gauge" field. As far as I'm aware, those details were transcribed from PULSE. I wouldn't be surprised if the 27 records would come back with similarly bogus information and need to be clarified by chasing down the paper records for the firearms.

I also would not be surprised if the PULSE records for the stolen firearms didn't match the actual firearms stolen. How many people have reported changing a firearm here and when renewal time came round the old details were on the new cert?

Also, there are probably a few of the 27 firearms which weren't in PULSE to begin with. I presume Garda firearms aren't recorded in PULSE and I wouldn't be surprised if firearms held on an authorisation or permit weren't in there either. Do firearms held by RFDs go into PULSE?

If that is the case it's a shocking state of affairs and somebody should be strung up by their balls.

If it's true, the point is still valid that the Minister and Gardai have absolutely no clue what the hell they're talking about. Nothing excuses their inability to come up with this information.

That's some way to make policy.

BornToKill

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

if I report my shotgun nicked in Clare and two years later it is recoverd ...All in all a pretty simple piece of computor work/programme, I think?

Didn't something like that actually happen Grizzly? They did trace the gun back to the theft from you, I think I remember?

Valmont

I feel bad for all you responsible shooters that have handguns, but there is no way this ban is being stopped. Once the public have been riled up, there's no stopping the ministers. Just buy yourselves a .30.06 rifle to feel better!

IRLConor

dresden8 wrote: »

If that is the case it's a shocking state of affairs and somebody should be strung up by their balls.

The only thing I've consistently seen make Gardai angry is mentioning the word "pulse".

dresden8 wrote: »

If it's true, the point is still valid that the Minister and Gardai have absolutely no clue what the hell they're talking about. Nothing excuses their inability to come up with this information.

That's some way to make policy.

I agree. I wasn't trying to make excuses for them, merely point out that it may not be as easy to retrieve that information as it seems.

Grizzly 45

BornToKill wrote: »

Didn't something like that actually happen Grizzly? They did trace the gun back to the theft from you, I think I remember?

Not quite...I was just using that with my handle of the above as an example.Fact was it was nicked over 15 years ago and I ID it personally when it was recoverd.Serial nos ground off,so unless they went and forensically examined it ,it was ID by personal identification and proably X refencing how many pumps were stolen in the area.

hk

IRLConor wrote: »

Also, there are probably a few of the 27 firearms which weren't in PULSE to begin with. I presume Garda firearms aren't recorded in PULSE and I wouldn't be surprised if firearms held on an authorisation or permit weren't in there either. Do firearms held by RFDs go into PULSE?

Here is the thing, Pulse is used to record everything including stolen property, ie if a Garda issue firearm was stolen then details of the theft including all known firearm details would be entered, I think that a RFD has to have a buyer for a pistol before they can bring one in so that should be moving through the application process, regardless if the firearm is stolen from a RFD and was not in pluse it would be in there after the theft.

So my take on the pulse system is, if a gun is stolen it is imput into pulse, therefor when you query how many handguns were stolen the query does not look through the registered firearms section but through the thefts or stolen property section, so in my view it would not descriminate about where they were stolen from automatically, to print off 27 crime reports and read through them to see who or where they were stolen from etc would show if they were registered sporting firearms or not.