M4 Toll Rip Off!!!

Swinging Looney

Hello,

I was absolutely disgusted going through the M4 Toll the other day to see they have increased their prices from 2.70 to 2.80 for cars. They are handing out leaflets showing the new rates and it says that the new rates are due to the VAT increase in the Budget! What an absolute farce!!!!!

The new VAT rate will add exactly 1.35 cent to the Toll, yet they are adding a full 10 cent as a response. I am also expecting another increase in the New Year as they usually provide!

So, who can you write to or email about this? I know it will likely make the sum total of f**k all difference but I am sick to the back teeth of this countrys money grabbing. All over the radio and papers and TV we are being told that we should shop local and keep the money here and stop going where it's cheaper, and then around every corner you find another way that you are getting screwed. If writing a snotty email will make me feel better then I'm all for it! :rolleyes:

Cookie_Monster

Tolls have to be rounded to the nearest 10c. the toll originally was €2.74.X and rounded down to €2.70, the .5% VAT increase brought it to €2.75.X and so it is rounded up to €2.80.

Still the toll company can now pocket an extra 10c(-VAT) for nothing basically, nice business to be in

Dan_B

Hence the old N4 from Kilcock to enfield and on to kinnegad is Jammers.
People just won't pay it.

kayos

Rip off? Yup
Worth it? Yup if your not doing it twice a day 5 days a week.

I know the m50 eflow thingy is cheaper with the tag but is there and option for this on the M4 as in cheaper than paying cash?

Swinging Looney

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Tolls have to be rounded to the nearest 10c. the toll originally was €2.74.X and rounded down to €2.70, the .5% VAT increase brought it to €2.75.X and so it is rounded up to €2.80.

Still the toll company can now pocket an extra 10c(-VAT) for nothing basically, nice business to be in

Jaysus you lads are as bad as me! You must be sitting at your computer looking for things to pass the time aswell!

@Cookie_Monster

Where did you get the info on the previous tolls?? I would have thought that they would have made that clear in their literature. The whole things looks just like when the Euro came in. The M50 upped their prices just beforehand, then converted the new toll to Euro and rounded it up! ARRGGHHH!!

The Tag thing is even worse in my opinion. Basically they are trying to force people to sign up for a service that includes monthly administration fees and guarantees a minimum balance in everyone's accounts. I hardly ever use toll roads -maybe 4 or 5 times a year, so it is more cost effective to pay cash than sign up for a tag. Yet the one and only time I used the M50, I paid that night online, and since then have been getting letters telling me I owe them the toll, then the 40 euro fine aswell. I can't get through on the phone and have emailed them numerous times. The latest letter say they looked into my claim and have refused it "due to the folllowing evidence: Toll not paid" What wonderful evidence indeed!

My missus keeps saying we should just get a tag and avoid the hassle. But I think that is exactly what they want most people to do.

Cookie_Monster

Swinging Looney wrote: »

@Cookie_Monster

Where did you get the info on the previous tolls?? I would have thought that they would have made that clear in their literature.

Came up on some thread previously, either here or Commuting and Transport. I think someone had rung them for an explanation and that is what they were told iirc

Fighting Irish

rip off blah blah blah, you either pay or you don't, and obviously people are paying considering the price is being hiked

Swinging Looney

Yeah sorry everyone. Just found the other threads.

All the same I am shocked at how many seem to feel that the method of calculation is fair. Adding CPI to tolls every year seems fair enough. But once you have rounded up just once at the beginning the whole thing becomes a sham:

If the toll started at 2.40 in November '05, adding CPI to the toll for each year from 2006 to 2008 gives:

2.46, 2.56, 2.68 when the toll has been 2.50, 2.60 and 2.70. So first of all eurolink has never had to charge less than the original toll times each years CPI. Eurolink have been very clever by calculating each years increase by adding CPI to the previously rounded up figures.

The latest VAT increase is a very clever piece of deception because they argue that the current toll is 2.74 (2007 toll of 2.60 plus 2007 CPI) and the new VAT makes it 2.75, which rounds up to 2.80. When in actual fact the real CPI corrected toll is 2.68 which becomes 2.69 with the new VAT rate.

And now for the clanger!!! Next month they will be allowed to add CPI for 2008 to the new toll of 2.80!!

Assuming 2008 CPI will still be around say 3% than means the new Jan '09 toll will become 2.88 rounded up to 2.90. In fact it should really be 2.69 becoming 2.77 rounded up to 2.80.

They won't ever lose. All this means that the toll has been increasing at a greater rate than CPI every year and it has gone unnoticed.

The government got hoodwinked again here. The basic toll rate should have been retained for each annual calculation and the result rounded up or down. Instead, they get to round off first. Clever people really.

rip off blah blah blah, you either pay or you don't, and obviously people are paying considering the price is being hiked

Could there be a more Irish attitude??? :cool:

Omcd

Swinging Looney wrote: »

Jaysus you lads are as bad as me! You must be sitting at your computer looking for things to pass the time aswell!

@Cookie_Monster

Where did you get the info on the previous tolls?? I would have thought that they would have made that clear in their literature. The whole things looks just like when the Euro came in. The M50 upped their prices just beforehand, then converted the new toll to Euro and rounded it up! ARRGGHHH!!

The Tag thing is even worse in my opinion. Basically they are trying to force people to sign up for a service that includes monthly administration fees and guarantees a minimum balance in everyone's accounts. I hardly ever use toll roads -maybe 4 or 5 times a year, so it is more cost effective to pay cash than sign up for a tag. Yet the one and only time I used the M50, I paid that night online, and since then have been getting letters telling me I owe them the toll, then the 40 euro fine aswell. I can't get through on the phone and have emailed them numerous times. The latest letter say they looked into my claim and have refused it "due to the folllowing evidence: Toll not paid" What wonderful evidence indeed!

My missus keeps saying we should just get a tag and avoid the hassle. But I think that is exactly what they want most people to do.

You'll still get the same sh1te with a tag when it fails to read.

mickdw

I think its a bargain! I do mayo - Dublin every second week or so. That roads takes 30 mins off the journey. There is a petrol saving made by using it. Add that to the time saving not to mention the time saved due to the lack of backed up traffic at busy times and it seems pretty good to me.
Certainly when I used to work in Dublin, the traffic on the way back to dub on sunday evenings was v bad and I would have gladly paid €2.80 to get a motorway straight into dublin.

TheBazman

Just wait til next year when we have disinflation - I'm sure the prices will be coming down

Fighting Irish

Swinging Looney wrote: »

Yeah sorry everyone. Just found the other threads.

All the same I am shocked at how many seem to feel that the method of calculation is fair. Adding CPI to tolls every year seems fair enough. But once you have rounded up just once at the beginning the whole thing becomes a sham:

If the toll started at 2.40 in November '05, adding CPI to the toll for each year from 2006 to 2008 gives:

2.46, 2.56, 2.68 when the toll has been 2.50, 2.60 and 2.70. So first of all eurolink has never had to charge less than the original toll times each years CPI. Eurolink have been very clever by calculating each years increase by adding CPI to the previously rounded up figures.

The latest VAT increase is a very clever piece of deception because they argue that the current toll is 2.74 (2007 toll of 2.60 plus 2007 CPI) and the new VAT makes it 2.75, which rounds up to 2.80. When in actual fact the real CPI corrected toll is 2.68 which becomes 2.69 with the new VAT rate.

And now for the clanger!!! Next month they will be allowed to add CPI for 2008 to the new toll of 2.80!!

Assuming 2008 CPI will still be around say 3% than means the new Jan '09 toll will become 2.88 rounded up to 2.90. In fact it should really be 2.69 becoming 2.77 rounded up to 2.80.

They won't ever lose. All this means that the toll has been increasing at a greater rate than CPI every year and it has gone unnoticed.

The government got hoodwinked again here. The basic toll rate should have been retained for each annual calculation and the result rounded up or down. Instead, they get to round off first. Clever people really.



Could there be a more Irish attitude??? :cool:

OK sure what if someone told you that you were getting paid too much for your job, would you take a paycut even though your boss was willing to pay the original pay?

towel401

TheBazman wrote: »

Just wait til next year when we have disinflation - I'm sure the prices will be coming down

it will take a long, long time before any Irish rip off artist will get the concept of reducing a price into their thick skull.

for the past 30 years at least prices only ever went up. of course they can't grasp the concept

Swinging Looney

Fighting Irish wrote: »

OK sure what if someone told you that you were getting paid too much for your job, would you take a paycut even though your boss was willing to pay the original pay?

Sorry sort of lost ya there. I assume you're backing up your other post which said as long as people are willing to pay the toll sure what's the problem.

The main problem in the past in this country has been the normal Irish attitude of not saying anything and accepting whatever is thrown at you. That's why Irish people go to a restaurant, get crap food and ****ty service, then leave a tip anyway. You're argument might fit this case where as long as the crappy restaurant gets away with it then who can argue. If you don't like the food then don't eat there. But a Toll Road like the M4 is completely different. The old N4/N6 is downright dangerous in places and the congestion, particularly in Moate (thank God it's been bypassed!) was causing huge problems. The Toll Road was designed to give a safer journey and solve the traffic issues in local villages. It was bad enough that the original toll was set at 2.40 which is feckin expensive, but to have the operator then continue to rip off drivers for using a road which is supposed to be there for safety reasons among others is unacceptable. Disincentivising the use of a safer option by increasing prices unnecessarily is negligent. The Irish attitude of sure if you don't like it don't use it is outdated and dangerous. I want to use it because it is safer. Since I use the road so seldom, I will probably continue to use it. But for those who use it regularly it may not be financially viable to continue to do so in the future. That is scandalous.

Sandwich

Look at the glass half full - wasnt it great paying 1.70 when you should have been paying 1.74?

towel401

Sandwich wrote: »

Look at the glass half full - wasnt it great paying 1.70 when you should have been paying 1.74?

no. paying for toll roads was never great

Swinging Looney

Sandwich wrote: »

Look at the glass half full - wasnt it great paying 1.70 when you should have been paying 1.74?

But that's my point! That has never been the case! At least not with the M4. From Jan 2006 onwards it has always been the other way around! It's been 2.50 when it should have been 2.46, 2.60 when it should have been 2.56 and before this month 2.70 when it should have been 2.68. Now with the latest scam it is 2.80 instead of 2.69 and will shortly become even higher!

Basic maths everyone!!

colsers22

there is an alternative, just don't use the rip off M4!!

Cookie_Monster

colsers22 wrote: »

there is an alternative, just don't use the rip off M4!!

Thats all very well if you live in Kerry or wherever but for those that live along the M4 corridor and don't fancy spending hours on the clogged up old N4 there isin't much of an option

junior_apollo

Swinging Looney wrote: »

Jaysus you lads are as bad as me! You must be sitting at your computer looking for things to pass the time aswell!

@Cookie_Monster

Where did you get the info on the previous tolls?? I would have thought that they would have made that clear in their literature. The whole things looks just like when the Euro came in. The M50 upped their prices just beforehand, then converted the new toll to Euro and rounded it up! ARRGGHHH!!

The Tag thing is even worse in my opinion. Basically they are trying to force people to sign up for a service that includes monthly administration fees and guarantees a minimum balance in everyone's accounts. I hardly ever use toll roads -maybe 4 or 5 times a year, so it is more cost effective to pay cash than sign up for a tag. Yet the one and only time I used the M50, I paid that night online, and since then have been getting letters telling me I owe them the toll, then the 40 euro fine aswell. I can't get through on the phone and have emailed them numerous times. The latest letter say they looked into my claim and have refused it "due to the folllowing evidence: Toll not paid" What wonderful evidence indeed!

My missus keeps saying we should just get a tag and avoid the hassle. But I think that is exactly what they want most people to do.

Ya dont need monthly fees, not a minimum balance..

I cant understand why people constantly moan about this saying they only use it once in a blue moon why should i pay for a tag and subscription... well ya dont have to! use the Video Registration method... you get charged ONLY when your number plate is picked up.. and then they take a direct debit from your account of the amount and send you a e-statement for that... there is no monthly charge and no annoying letters etc... :rolleyes:

Ta me anseo

junior_apollo wrote: »

Ya dont need monthly fees, not a minimum balance..

I cant understand why people constantly moan about this saying they only use it once in a blue moon why should i pay for a tag and subscription... well ya dont have to! use the Video Registration method... you get charged ONLY when your number plate is picked up.. and then they take a direct debit from your account of the amount and send you a e-statement for that... there is no monthly charge and no annoying letters etc... :rolleyes:

Jeez Apollo, fair play to ya! Must hold my hand up and say I didn't realise that. Was always told there were only two options but never looked it up myself.

Off to sign up now........

Mailman

I made a rough guesstimate
1.05 for CPI which isn't accurate but compensates for the rounding up that the Toll Operator is allowed to do.
I figure that in the 30th year of the PPP scheme we'll be paying a toll of €10.80 each way at that toll bridge. Not accurate but entirely possible.

At the current price of €2.90 for many people it really is worthwhile diverting rather than taking the motorway assuming you don't put too high a price on your time.

I wonder with the contract agreement that the operator has will there come a time when they crunch the numbers and figure occupancy and profitability on the route will increase if they don't take their toll increase. If that day comes will Government insist on keeping the higher price because they want the VAT or will they allow them to charge a lower amount.

At present I really do think they'd make more money by charging a lower toll to people accessing the road at the Enfield on-ramp and leaving the road at the Enfield off-ramp but have no traffic usage statistics to back this up.