Lisbon 2: prepare to bend over and recieve ur destiny!

Darragh29

20goto10 wrote: »

The independent report uncovered why we voted no. And there is nothing in the treaty that can be changed to address our concerns. So again, why should we automatically deserve respect? We have sabotaged the treaty and put a lot of really important agendas which the treaty is setup to resolve on hold while we have our little hissy fit. Thats what I call arrogance.

Right, so we couldn't vote no then in your opinion. What then is the point in holding a referendum in the first place then???

There is everything in the treaty that can be changed, this treaty ought to now be sticking out of the bin. The fact that these people don't want to change the treaty, is quite frankly, not our problem...

walshb

Biro wrote: »

Yes... because the only ones who'd vote no are silly people who haven't bothered to research the issue at hand and are trying to "stick it to the 'gubberment'".
Great to see the broad mindedness of the Yes camp!

Wow, those NO voters who knew nothing and VOTED NO are so much more retarded than those YES voters who knew nothing and voted YES:rolleyes:

"Hey, put your hand into that fire please and maybe you will lose your hand or don't and you will DEFINITELY not lose your hand"

This is a no brainer guys! And exactly what the govt were asking us to decide on!

YES voters voted YES when not knowing; exactly like NO voters voted NO when not knowing; now, who's more retarded? Again, a no brainer!

Doc

20goto10 wrote: »

Why does it automatically deserve respect? When the reasons for voting no are taken into consideration I do not think it deserves respect. They must accept it, which they have done, but why should they respect it?

Because if they don’t we would no longer be a democracy but a dictatorship. Your attitude is truly shocking.

I have to say that due to the fact I was out of the country at the time I could not vote in the first Lisbon vote. I have not made up my mind yet as to how I will vote but the attitude of some of the people on here who voted yes really appals me.

Just because someone doesn’t agree with your view dose not make them fools. I will consider my vote and probably won’t make my mind up until I vote but however I vote deserves respect as a citizen of the country my vote should be both accepted and respected no matter how I choose to use it.

I there has to be substantial differences between what was given to us in the first vote and the second in order for this second referendum to be justified.

20goto10

Darragh29 wrote: »

Right, so we couldn't vote no then in your opinion. What then is the point in holding a referendum in the first place then???

There is everything in the treaty that can be changed, this treaty ought to now be sticking out of the bin. The fact that these people don't want to change the treaty, is quite frankly, not our problem...

Change what? What do you want changed? I wish the nay sayers would quit yabbering rubbish and tell us all what they want changed? you can't because its got nothing to do the treaty its got to do with being anti-Europe...period. You're all a disgrace to this nation. Anything good that has happened to this country has come from Europe and this treaty sets things up to get even better. Vote no if you like, as if it will make a difference when we all have to go abroad to find work.

Darragh29

walshb wrote: »

Wow, those NO voters who knew nothing and VOTED NO are so much more retarded than those YES voters who knew nothing and voted YES:rolleyes:

"Hey, put your hand into that fire please and maybe you will lose your hand or don't and you will DEFINITELY not lose your hand"

This is a no brainer guys! And exactly what the govt were asking us to decide on!

YES voters voted YES when not knowing; exactly like NO voters voted NO when not knowing; now, who's more retarded? Again, a no brainer!

There was even a warped opinion floating around the boards during Lisbon I that sure if you didn't understand it, you were better off voting for it! This is what many yes voters were actually pushing no voters to do last time round, "don't think too hard about it, we know it's hard to grasp, but just trust us and vote yes!!!"... While muttering to themselves with their eyes thrown up to heaven as they walked off back to their investment property, "the poor little working class mites, they aren't educated enough to understand the treaty!"

walshb

20goto10 wrote: »

Change what? What do you want changed? I wish the nay sayers would quit yabbering rubbish and tell us all what they want changed? you can't because its got nothing to do the treaty its got to do with being anti-Europe...period. You're all a disgrace to this nation. Anything good that has happened to this country has come from Europe and this treaty sets things up to get even better. Vote no if you like, as if it will make a difference when we all have to go abroad to find work.

Seeing as a YES vote is so so so important for us in
you view, maybe you could tell us exactly why a YES
vote is so so so important? What's the big deal if NO gets thru?

20goto10

walshb wrote: »

Seeing as a YES vote is so so so important for us in
you view, maybe you could tell us exactly why a YES
vote is so so so important? What's the big deal if NO gets thru?

In a nutshell, a properly functioning EU that has the power to make proper decisions which will benefit the EU and, in some cases like climate change, the planet. And sh!t like this whole fiasco don't keep happening and throwing a spanner in the works.

Darragh29

20goto10 wrote: »

Change what? What do you want changed? I wish the nay sayers would quit yabbering rubbish and tell us all what they want changed? you can't because its got nothing to do the treaty its got to do with being anti-Europe...period. You're all a disgrace to this nation. Anything good that has happened to this country has come from Europe and this treaty sets things up to get even better. Vote no if you like, as if it will make a difference when we all have to go abroad to find work.

First of all, this treaty has been rejected, not once but twice, when it was a proposed constitution. Then after that rejection, it was resurected into the Lisbon Treaty and now it has been rejected again. It's time to call time of death on this whole sorry episode and stop trying to make compete f*cking twits of people in three separate jurisdictions.

You are a disgrace to this country, putting your short term, and I should also point out, rapidly diminishing, cozy living standards ahead of your right to vote and have your decision respected if it happens to concur with a majority electoral decision.

All those countries that are looking down their noses at us because we dared to vote no, the same countries didn't have the balls to give their own electorate a say on the treaty, so I don't give an RA what they think of us. Let them put the treaty to their own people and come back and have an honest conversation with us then, until then they can f*ck off in my opinion...

walshb

20goto10 wrote: »

In a nutshell, a properly functioning EU that has the power to make proper decisions which will benefit the EU and, in some cases like climate change, the planet. And sh!t like this whole fiasco don't keep happening and throwing a spanner in the works.

Wow, I am convinced now!:D

Properly functioning. So vague! And so easy. I could say and use that about anything!

Climate change? The new fad on the planet. Everyone wants to be 'part' of it; for whatever reason!

Well, what about those countries that were NOT allowed to vote that said Ireland's
vote was great and that they too would have voted NO had they the chance.
I was in France during Lisbon and the majority there were in agreement with the Irish vote

It has been widely claimed that the general public in these countries are for a NO, but didn't have the choice!

sk8board

walshb wrote: »

What's the big deal if NO gets thru?

we'll get left behind. We're now in the big-boys league, and you play ball or you get out of the way. getting out of the way (or being pushed) would be catostrophic. We would then need to allign ourselves with someone, most likely the US. It may take a few years, but that would be the end result.

we heard the No side talk of Commissioners, Abortion and Neutrality; with these things now looking like they will be legally binded into L2, does that mean Boyd-barrett and the Shinners will celebrate that they've brought about change and encourage a Yes vote? Of course not. They'll just come up with new reasons for voting No, while telling us they are pro-Europe.

Yes all the way this time around. we got what we were looking for, (didn't we?). Contrary to declan ganleys belief, not everything is a conspiracy believe it or not.

If its NO, we should do the honourable thing and resign ourselves from Europe so the others can move forward and dig themselves out of their respecitive recessions. Otherwise we'll be marginalised, and that will be much worse.
We'd be on the EU bus, but we'd be in the boot or tied to the roof.

Biro

walshb wrote: »

Wow, those NO voters who knew nothing and VOTED NO are so much more retarded than those YES voters who knew nothing and voted YES:rolleyes:

"Hey, put your hand into that fire please and maybe you will lose your hand or don't and you will DEFINITELY not lose your hand"

This is a no brainer guys! And exactly what the govt were asking us to decide on!

YES voters voted YES when not knowing; exactly like NO voters voted NO when not knowing; now, who's more retarded? Again, a no brainer!

How is it a no brainer? What are you getting at?

Darragh29

sk8board wrote: »

we'll get left behind. We're now in the big-boys league, and you play ball or you get out of the way. getting out of the way (or being pushed) would be catostrophic. We would then need to allign ourselves with someone, most likely the US. It may take a few years, but that would be the end result.

we heard the No side talk of Commissioners, Abortion and Neutrality; with these things now looking like they will be legally binded into L2, does that mean Boyd-barrett and the Shinners will celebrate that they've brought about change and encourage a Yes vote? Of course not. They'll just come up with new reasons for voting No, while telling us they are pro-Europe.

Yes all the way this time around. we got what we were looking for, (didn't we?). Contrary to declan ganleys belief, not everything is a conspiracy believe it or not.

If its NO, we should do the honourable thing and resign ourselves from Europe so the others can move forward and dig themselves out of their respecitive recessions. Otherwise we'll be marginalised, and that will be much worse.
We'd be on the EU bus, but we'd be in the boot or tied to the roof.

We aren't in "with the big boys", we're a small nation in a big club with probably more influence than we are entitled to. The fact that we have more influence than we are actually entitled to is now being used as a stick to beat us with. We are in the EU and we get what EU members are entitled to and this will continue as long as we are EU members. This crap of, "we have to play with the big boys and show them our big swinging di*ks", is starting to make me cringe...

20goto10

sk8board wrote: »

we'll get left behind. We're now in the big-boys league, and you play ball or you get out of the way. getting out of the way (or being pushed) would be catostrophic. We would then need to allign ourselves with someone, most likely the US. It may take a few years, but that would be the end result.

we heard the No side talk of Commissioners, Abortion and Neutrality; with these things now looking like they will be legally binded into L2, does that mean Boyd-barrett and the Shinners will celebrate that they've brought about change and encourage a Yes vote? Of course not. They'll just come up with new reasons for voting No, while telling us they are pro-Europe.

Yes all the way this time around. we got what we were looking for, (didn't we?). Contrary to declan ganleys belief, not everything is a conspiracy believe it or not.

If its NO, we should do the honourable thing and resign ourselves from Europe so the others can move forward and dig themselves out of their respecitive recessions. Otherwise we'll be marginalised, and that will be much worse.
We'd be on the EU bus, but we'd be in the boot or tied to the roof.

Nicely said.

Biro

20goto10 wrote: »

In a nutshell, a properly functioning EU that has the power to make proper decisions which will benefit the EU and, in some cases like climate change, the planet. And sh!t like this whole fiasco don't keep happening and throwing a spanner in the works.

Key point highlighted there, is this necessarily a good thing? What's for the benefit of the EU? Will it also be for our benefit? What was wrong with the European Economic Community?
Climate change, the planet. What a load of utter tripe. Our answer to climate change is either tax people or ship it off to China. Brilliant. The planet... What do you mean by that? Vote for Lisbon to save the Planet!

Darragh29

sk8board wrote: »

We'd be on the EU bus, but we'd be in the boot or tied to the roof.

We need to get it onto our heads in this country that we are not special and that we are just like other countries, there is certainly nothing extraordinary about us, contrary to what we've come to believe in recent years with our apparently bulletproof housing market and our apparently bulletproof economy, both of which are now lying on their backs with their t*ts in the air for all our EU neighbours to see.

The sooner we get it into our heads that we need to be sitting down on the bus like everyone else on it and not jumping up and down the isles p*ssed out of our brains entertaining everyone else on the bus, the sooner we can do away with this myth that we "need goodwill and credibility", and all these other intangible things that we are being threatened with...

SEPT 23 1989

right or wrong the Irish people voted NO so thats it WE SAID NO so why are we voting again is this what passes for democracy in the EU now?:mad:

Dyr

20goto10 wrote: »

The independent report uncovered why we voted no. And there is nothing in the treaty that can be changed to address our concerns. So again, why should we automatically deserve respect? We have sabotaged the treaty and put a lot of really important agendas which the treaty is setup to resolve on hold while we have our little hissy fit. Thats what I call arrogance.

What made this report so independent??

Burning Eclipse

I voted yes the first time, and I'll vote again and vote yes this time again. Simple as. Do I like the idea of referendums being re-run until the government gets the result it wants; no... But I still want the thing to pass.

20goto10

Biro wrote: »

Key point highlighted there, is this necessarily a good thing? What's for the benefit of the EU? Will it also be for our benefit? What was wrong with the European Economic Community?
Climate change, the planet. What a load of utter tripe. Our answer to climate change is either tax people or ship it off to China. Brilliant. The planet... What do you mean by that? Vote for Lisbon to save the Planet!

It was an example, not a reason.

passive

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

right or wrong the Irish people voted NO so thats it WE SAID NO so why are we voting again is this what passes for democracy in the EU now?:mad:

WE SAID NO... for what reasons? Are these reasons dealt with by the resolutions/commissioner change?

if YES then why vote NO again?

SheroN

passive wrote: »

WE SAID NO... for what reasons? Are these reasons dealt with by the resolutions/commissioner change?

if YES then why vote NO again?

What about all the "get a better deal for Ireland" and "save our commissioner" posters the last time round from the NO campagin?

These concerns look like being addressed before the second vote and people are still whinging?

It's not really being re-run if there's major changes to the treaty?

20goto10

walshb wrote: »

Wow, I am convinced now!:D

Properly functioning. So vague! And so easy. I could say and use that about anything!

Hey at least my opinions actually have something to do with the treaty. I'm still waiting for 1 person, anywhere on boards.ie in any of the forums to come up with a reason for voting no which has actually got something to do with the treaty. The closest has been retaining our commissioner, which does not require a change to the treaty. So come on....spit it out.

walshb

Biro wrote: »

How is it a no brainer? What are you getting at?

Are you serious?

Simple: If you were asked, "what seems the more silly approach, voting NO to something you know nothing about or voting YES to something you know nothing about."

This is IMO a no brainer; so why are the YES campaigners saying that the NO
side are retarded for this. The YES side voted YES and knew nothing; that's retarded!

sk8board

sk8board wrote:

We'd be on the EU bus, but we'd be in the boot or tied to the roof.

Darragh29 wrote: »

The sooner we get it into our heads that we need to be sitting down on the bus like everyone else on it and not jumping up and down the isles p*ssed out of our brains entertaining everyone else on the bus, the sooner we can do away with this myth that we "need goodwill and credibility", and all these other intangible things that we are being threatened with...

agreed.

My fear is that the government may not be strong enough to explain to people the consequences of voting No. One thing we hate is being preached to, and many voters may waste their votes to teach FF a lesson. Biting off our nose to spite our face.

I found it interesting that only 12 months before L1 we voted in a general election for our elected representatives (all political parties), 'representatives' being the key word. They explain to their constituenties why a Yes vote is the way to go, and we decide that we know better. Its bizzare. Why bother having elected representation at all? Just appoint private individuals like the No spokespersons.

20goto10

walshb wrote: »

Are you serious?

Simple: If you were asked, "what seems the more silly approach, voting NO to something you know nothing about or voting YES to something you know nothing about."

This is IMO a no brainer; so why are the YES campaigners saying that the NO
side are retarded for this. The YES side voted YES and knew nothing; that's retarded!

The point is if you cannot be bothered to find out about what you're voting on then you should not vote at all. Leave it to the people who do know what they're voting on, whether they be yes or no.

sk8board

Darragh29 wrote: »

We aren't in "with the big boys", we're a small nation in a big club with probably more influence than we are entitled to.

Its still counts as influence

Darragh29 wrote: »

We are in the EU and we get what EU members are entitled to and this will continue as long as we are EU members.

'As long as we are EU members'. You don't think that the other 26 members can collectively vote to marginalise us? When we promote pieces of legislation and they get mysteriously shot down every time? When we go cap in hand for this reason and that reason, and theres no money with our name on it.

Like any club of any size, you play by the rules, or you leave. If we vote No this time around, we're too small and insignificant to survive on our own.

and for the tin-foil hat brigade; don't think we wouldn't become the 51st state, in all but name. Its nearly happened before, and we joined Europe instead.
Look at Iceland; who bailed them our with the EU balked? Russia!

walshb

20goto10 wrote: »

The point is if you cannot be bothered to find out about what you're voting on then you should not vote at all. Leave it to the people who do know what they're voting on, whether they be yes or no.

Ok, lets say you brought in that dictatorial rule, would the result be a YES?
This view applies to both camps, so why keep using it
as some stick to beat the NO side with? Very narrow minded!

I say there were roughly the same amount of knowledgeable NO voters as YES
voters. What then. Would you simply discount the NO vote then?

You are no different than the govt; you too aren't accepting democracy

Some of my reasons:

Oh, maybe you will tell me that these aren't good enough and that
I HAVE to vote YES?:rolleyes:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/87518

redshoulder

Voted yes last time and will vote the same.
During the last lisbon vote, some people I know voted no because they didn't know what it was about.
If it was me i would not vote at all if I didn't know what it was about.

walshb

redshoulder wrote: »

Voted yes last time and will vote the same.
During the last lisbon vote, some people I know voted no because they didn't know what it was about.
If it was me i would not vote at all if I didn't know what it was about.

This just is not sinking in is it?

Some voted NO because they knew nothing.


Ok Ok, but also, some voted YES and knew nothing.

What is so damn difficult to understand here

Why bring it up? No disrespect, but it's the
most stupid argument ever!

"They voted NO and didn't even know why." Idiots!

Oh, but I forgot, "They voted YES and didn't even know what they were voting for." bigger bigger idiots

ShooterSF

20goto10 wrote: »

Hey at least my opinions actually have something to do with the treaty. I'm still waiting for 1 person, anywhere on boards.ie in any of the forums to come up with a reason for voting no which has actually got something to do with the treaty. The closest has been retaining our commissioner, which does not require a change to the treaty. So come on....spit it out.

Giving up vetos in exchange for a slightly stronger vote. Our vote is negiligible due to our size so vetos are worth a lot more. Handing over more legal power to the EU. Mention of self amendment that the yes side claim isnt true ; then take it out. The stupid citizen's initiative which gives power to the likes of the catholic church to put forward legislation.
Now specific positives in the lisbon treaty?