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Lisbon 2: prepare to bend over and recieve ur destiny!

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    #452
    SheroN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,972 ✭✭✭SheroN


    Terry wrote: »
    Really?
    You just want referendum after referendum?

    Great idea, especially in a time of recession.

    Wait for the "they're trying to bully us into voting yes by making us falsely believe the treaty will help us out of recession" argument.


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    #453
    hobochris
    Registered Users Posts: 2,164 ✭✭✭hobochris


    Terry wrote: »
    Really?
    You just want referendum after referendum?

    Great idea, especially in a time of recession.
    When something as important as I don't know... OUR NEUTRALITY is concerned. Then Yes, Yes I do want to vote!


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    #454
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    SheroN wrote: »
    Wait for the "they're trying to bully us into voting yes by making us falsely believe the treaty will help us out of recession" argument.

    I think he means the cost of it. That we cannot afford to keep voting?


    You know a lot of people will still stick to their votes based on the last treaty, even if things are changed... That's not good. We all know that everyone isn't going to read it all.


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    #455
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Im standing by my previous vote.


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    #456
    Nehaxak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,717 ✭✭✭Nehaxak


    If Fianna Fail/PD/Greens are still in power by the time this referendum comes around, regardless of whether or not it's good for the country and regardless of whether or not I agree or disagree with it - I'm stil voting no. Protest vote and two fingers to this incompetent pissant government.

    I'd probably be happy otherwise this time around to vote yes, even if I am pissed off at them pissing on us all for voting no the last time but I'm still voting NO as a protest. Don't like it ? Call a general election then before the referendum.


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    #457
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    “Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly – all the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way”.

    Valerie Giscard D’Estaing, Architech of the Lisbon Treaty

    Got a reference for this? The source I've seen mentioned is Le Monde, 14th June 2007, but I had a look through (online) and there's no mention of Giscard or Lisbon. Any idea what page? The title of the article?


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    #458
    SheroN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,972 ✭✭✭SheroN


    Nehaxak wrote: »
    If Fianna Fail/PD/Greens are still in power by the time this referendum comes around, regardless of whether or not it's good for the country and regardless of whether or not I agree or disagree with it - I'm stil voting no. Protest vote and two fingers to this incompetent pissant government.

    I'd probably be happy otherwise this time around to vote yes, even if I am pissed off at them pissing on us all for voting no the last time but I'm still voting NO as a protest. Don't like it ? Call a general election then before the referendum.

    The mature approach.


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    #459
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    SheroN wrote: »
    The mature approach.

    Every bit as informed and considered as your decision.


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    #460
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    Dave! wrote: »
    Got a reference for this? The source I've seen mentioned is Le Monde, 14th June 2007, but I had a look through (online) and there's no mention of Giscard or Lisbon. Any idea what page? The title of the article?

    http://www.forumoneurope.ie/index.asp?locID=113&docID=1638


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    #461
    ben bedlam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 261 ✭✭ben bedlam


    Regardless of people on both sides urging the public to vote for or against the treaty, the fact of the matter is that many many people are fed up with the government and will use Lisbon 2 as a protest against the government. (At least it will mean Cowen resigning)


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    #462
    SheroN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,972 ✭✭✭SheroN


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    Every bit as informed and considered as your decision.

    Potentially, but at least I'm approaching the thing like an adult.


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    #463
    hobochris
    Registered Users Posts: 2,164 ✭✭✭hobochris


    SheroN wrote: »
    Wait for the "they're trying to bully us into voting yes by making us falsely believe the treaty will help us out of recession" argument.

    SheroN wrote: »
    Potentially, but at least I'm approaching the thing like an adult.

    If you say so.


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    #464
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    http://www.forumoneurope.ie/index.asp?locID=113&docID=1638
    Ah, "Susan Philip, Co Wicklow", silly me!


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    #465
    SheroN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,972 ✭✭✭SheroN


    hobochris wrote: »
    If you say so.

    I may as well say so, while I still can. You know by this time next year the evil EU will own all independent thoughts.


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    #466
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    SheroN wrote: »
    Potentially, but at least I'm approaching the thing like an adult.

    This is democracy working at its most beautiful in my opinion. This government KNOW that they are hugely unpopular and hated by the electorate. Do you think they would have the courage of their convictions and call a general election before the next Lisbon referendum, in order to greatly diminish the chances of a protest vote against themselves, ending up being responsible for a rejection of Lisbon on the second occasion???

    Ok, they would be voted out of office but Lisbon might be ratified, which is apparently more important than our own economic problems???

    Come next October, no to Lisbon, we are rid of Lisbon, rid of Brian Cowen, rid of Mary Coughlan, rid of Brain Lenihan and rid of Fianna Fail.

    That's rid of five useless birds with one stone.

    Lisbon isn't that important to these saps, at least not more important than them remaining in office.


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    #467
    SheroN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,972 ✭✭✭SheroN


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    This is democracy working at its most beautiful in my opinion. This government KNOW that they are hugely unpopular and hated by the electorate. Do you think they would have the courage of their convictions and call a general election before the next Lisbon referendum, in order to greatly diminish the chances of a protest vote against themselves, ending up being responsible for a rejection of Lisbon on the second occasion???

    Come next October, no to Lisbon, we are rid of Lisbon, rid of Brian Cowen, rid of Mary Coughlan, rid of Brain Lenihan and rid of Fianna Fail.

    That's rid of five useless birds with one stone.

    Gerry adams for leader of the world.


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    #468
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    hobochris wrote: »
    Take out the ability of the eu to change our constitution and I would happily vote Yes.

    'Any amendments to the treaties, which have not already been espoused to would require national ratification. In Irelands case if it impacts our constitution we would require a referendum. False both in the specific claim, and in the implication. The Council can agree proposed amendments, which then need to be ratified by all member states according to their own constitutional requirements - which in our case may or may not require a referendum, depending on the specific amendment. If it would have required a referendum as part of a Treaty, it will still require a referendum as an amendment.'

    Ie, they can't just go around changing it.


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    #469
    hobochris
    Registered Users Posts: 2,164 ✭✭✭hobochris


    SheroN wrote: »
    I may as well say so, while I still can. You know by this time next year the EU will own all independent thoughts.

    It seems clear to me that you have don't have any respect for any opinions/views that differ to yours on this issue.

    people here are presenting their reasons for the way they are going to vote on this issue. While I disagree with you on which way to vote here I still respect your opinion and am discussing it in a civil and respectful manor the same in return would be appreciated. or is that to much to ask? at present you comments seem to be aimed at mocking the People who swayed more towards a no vote.


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    #470
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    Dave! wrote: »
    Ah, "Susan Philip, Co Wicklow", silly me!

    I just Googled it. He admitted saying these words though after the election, but of course they were completely taken out of context, yakedy yakedy yak...


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    #471
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    SheroN wrote: »
    Gerry adams for leader of the world.

    I don't think I've seen one constructive comment posted here by you in 30 plus pages of discussion.


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    #472
    SheroN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,972 ✭✭✭SheroN


    hobochris wrote: »
    It seems clear to me that you have don't have any respect for any opinions/views that differ to yours on this issue.

    people here are presenting their reasons for the way they are going to vote on this issue. While I disagree with you on which way to vote here I still respect your opinion and am discussing it in a civil and respectful manor the same in return would be appreciated. or is that to much to ask? aT present you comments seem to be aimed at mocking the People who swayed more towards a no vote.

    In Afterhours. Yes it is too much to ask.

    I was discussing it in a civil manner too, you're the one who called the french "surrender monkies".


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    #473
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    I just Googled it. He admitted saying these words though after the election, but of course they were completely taken out of context, yakedy yakedy yak...

    Who cares what he said? I've read it and it's not true, that's what matters.
    He can say what he wants. I imagine he was pissed at being kicked off the team :-)


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    #474
    20goto10
    Registered Users Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭20goto10


    The funny thing is we already got our legal assurances on abortion, neutralilty yada yada yada with the Nice treaty. Whether you voted No based on abortion, neutrality etc or not the fact still remains that a lot of people did. This will be enough to persuade them to vote Yes. Those who are anti-Europe will be anti-Europe no matter what they are being asked to vote on. There is no way of giving these people reassurances....its physically impossible.


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    #475
    SheroN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,972 ✭✭✭SheroN


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    I don't think I've seen one constructive comment posted here by you in 30 plus pages of discussion.

    The same could be said of the ****e you are posting.


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    #476
    Nigsy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34 ✭Nigsy


    What a joke.

    The other 25 have signed the treaty, so how are we supposed to be voting on something different.

    SCAM, this EU lot need to be shot down again.


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    #477
    Nehaxak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,717 ✭✭✭Nehaxak


    SheroN wrote: »
    Potentially, but at least I'm approaching the thing like an adult.

    I already voted, I voted no. Who is the child here throwing their dummy out of the pram by insisting Irish people are stupid, how dare you all vote no last time, I want a second vote, blah blah blah... ?

    I and many many others will vote no and I will campaign myself for all friends, family, neighbors, anyone I know, to also vote no because the vote we gave the last time has been pissed on and the Irish people's vote was not respected. That and as I've said, I absolutely fcking despise this government for all their corruption and incompetance.

    There is nothing that will change my mind and I will do everything I possibly can to get others to vote No also unless there is a change of government beforehand.

    You can live in your blinkered world in thinking for some reason the government will be trusted this time around and believed. People are sick of them, sick of their bully boy tactics and childish attitudes toward the Irish people and sick of their incompetence.
    I have NEVER seen before the vast public opinion that is out there now against the government, bordering on absolute hatred at times.
    They are so far up their own arse if they think they'll get a yes vote this time around.

    This next referendum should also be monitored so as to stop potential vote rigging by the yes campaign.


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    #478
    hobochris
    Registered Users Posts: 2,164 ✭✭✭hobochris


    Tar.Aldarion wrote: »
    'Any amendments to the treaties, which have not already been espoused to would require national ratification. In Irelands case if it impacts our constitution we would require a referendum. False both in the specific claim, and in the implication. The Council can agree proposed amendments, which then need to be ratified by all member states according to their own constitutional requirements - which in our case may or may not require a referendum, depending on the specific amendment. If it would have required a referendum as part of a Treaty, it will still require a referendum as an amendment.'

    Ie, they can't just go around changing it.
    that's what this treaty is doing now, in effect wavering this need to hold a referendum. once they have the ability to change our constitution, they can just take that part out.


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    #479
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    SheroN wrote: »
    The same could be said of the ****e you are posting.

    I'm not the one slagging everyone off here... Obviously your argument lacks any substance when the only contribution you can make is slagging people who don't agree with you...


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    #480
    IvySlayer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,187 ✭✭✭✭IvySlayer


    20goto10 wrote: »
    The funny thing is we already got our legal assurances on abortion, neutralilty yada yada yada with the Nice treaty. Whether you voted No based on abortion, neutrality etc or not the fact still remains that a lot of people did. This will be enough to persuade them to vote Yes. Those who are anti-Europe will be anti-Europe no matter what they are being asked to vote on. There is no way of giving these people reassurances....its physically impossible.

    I'm pro-Europe but I'm, voting like last time, no.

    The only changes in this complicated piece of writing I can see are tax, eu law superior to our own. I'm in favour of abortion, but still voting no, but thats a whole other discussion.

    And just so people know, we're technically not neutral.


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    #481
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    hobochris wrote: »
    that's what this treaty is doing now, in effect wavering this need to hold a referendum. once they have the ability to change our constitution, they can just take that part out.

    As I said, no it's not. Come on, let's see the part where it does this?
    Not having a dig at you, but over the months of people saying this there was no proof.


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