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Lisbon 2: prepare to bend over and recieve ur destiny!

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    #572
    Boskowski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    thelordofcheese wrote: »
    You're exaggerating because you imagine the EU to be giant boogyman here to eat your babies.
    It's not the clearest document ever, i'll grant you that, but it's not incomprehesible.
    Saying that it is betrays laziness.

    No it doesnt. There is no reason for the document being unclear other than either beaurocratic brain-deadness or deliberate obscurity or both. Not going to vote for that.
    thelordofcheese wrote: »
    Good thing it's not a constitution.

    Why does it not leave things alone that are usually governed by constitutions then?
    thelordofcheese wrote: »
    The EU has never been democratic. If it was we wouldn't be having a second vote. The EU is a political and economic union of 27 member states, it is not a democracy. It never has been. I don't know where you got that notion from.

    And it will eventually replace the European nation states. It already has in many aspects. Already the vast majority of every day laws and regulations comes from Brussels not from Dublin. I'm not going to assist something that promotes replacing the somewhat democratic nation states of Europe with something worse.
    thelordofcheese wrote: »
    So what's your solution?
    If you believe this to be true, how can there be a government at all, if the interests are by your definition, too different?

    The solution is the next big revolution. The political class is all ****ed up and really most of them belong with their backs against the wall.
    thelordofcheese wrote: »
    I think you'll find no treaty between nations ever is. What's your point?

    I think I made myself clear


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    #573
    My name is Mud
    Registered Users Posts: 647 ✭✭✭My name is Mud


    hobochris wrote: »
    As apposed to a blind "yes"?
    Ckal wrote: »
    Bingo. ;)

    A blind "no" and a blind "yes" are equal in terms of decision making. You have taken my post up wrong.

    Not knowing what the treaty is about, or "sticking it to the gubberment" is not a reason for "NO"

    Because Cowan says you have to vote yes or die, is not a reason for "YES".

    My point was - make the choice based on your own decsion.

    Not Declan Ganleys.

    Not Brian Cowans.

    Yours.

    Jeez...


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    #574
    My name is Mud
    Registered Users Posts: 647 ✭✭✭My name is Mud


    realcam wrote: »
    Already the vast majority of every day laws and regulations comes from Brussels not from Dublin.

    Such as...?


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    #575
    Boskowski
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,361 ✭✭✭Boskowski


    My name is Mud wrote: »
    Not once do you make a point for the "no" camp, just that the treaty is "bollix".

    Wtf, did you read my post? Obviously not, you just prefer to single out my one profanity.
    My name is Mud wrote: »
    In reality the treaty cleans up the reminants of other treaties in which a war-ravaged Europe was created to what you see today.

    Article A, subsection B etc, has to be included because of this.

    I grant you that.
    My name is Mud wrote: »
    And it does adhere to democratic principals.

    I brought up several reasons why not. Only you saying 'it does' wouldnt make those points go away.

    My name is Mud wrote: »
    Currently, Ireland has a disproportionate weighting of representatives in Europe for the population it has. How democratic is that? Not very.

    The QMV system will ensure that member states have equal says depending on their population size.

    That's the one thing that it would make actually more democratic. I'm not saying perfectly democratic but moire democratic. Of course it would be nice if these representatives we elect so much more equally now would actually carry some weight too.


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    #576
    boring_job_guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 89 ✭✭boring_job_guy


    melekalikimaka wrote: »
    do yoy mean is written in a way to deliberately confuse people? do you really think that, what purpose had the government to gain from that, people with an understanding of the treaty...in gerneral....extreme generalisation here from personal observation here, as a whole more yes voters.l... so the government wanted this passed, so the decided to make the infomation on it confusing to p1ss off the public??? I think not, I think they wrote the information in a way the people who wrote it felt was clear but maybe the general public, including myself found hard to grasp, I set out to inform myself on the information after this and there was more than one source of infomation on this treaty, so blaming one government leaflet is hardly rational

    I'm not talking about the government leaflet, I'm talking about the actual treaty.

    I would not put it past certain eurocrats to deliberately make a vague and confusing treaty so that later on they can do as they please without consulting the people.


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    #577
    drivealive
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭drivealive


    No!


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    #578
    SheroN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,972 ✭✭✭SheroN


    realcam wrote: »
    Wtf, did you read my post? Obviously not, you just prefer to single out my one profanity.



    I grant you that.



    I brought up several reasons why not. Only you saying 'it does' wouldnt make those points go away.




    That's the one thing that it would make actually more democratic. I'm not saying perfectly democratic but moire democratic. Of course it would be nice if these representatives we elect so much more equally now would actually carry some weight too.

    It's hard to take anything you say seriously when you're suggesting lining up politicans against a wall.


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    #579
    My name is Mud
    Registered Users Posts: 647 ✭✭✭My name is Mud


    realcam wrote: »
    Of course it would be nice if these representatives we elect so much more equally now would actually carry some weight too.

    Pardon the pun, but Brian Cowan is on the European Council therefore carries weight...

    ...for Ireland.


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    #580
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    sk8board wrote: »
    but some unknown entity called declan ganley saying these guys are crooked is a valid reason for voting no?!

    I'll trust a politican before one mans private agenda any day. Only one of them was chosen by the electorate.

    Until such point as he gets elected, he's just a political commentator, using his wealth to influence people

    No make your OWN mind up without Ganley or politicians influence. *Headbang*


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    #581
    HalloweenJack
    Registered Users Posts: 7,240 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    What is democracy?

    IMO, democracy is listening to the voice of the majority.

    So yes, the Gov/EU are being absolute arses by forcing Ireland to vote again when the majority said no.

    However, afaik, 25 of the 27 EU countries have ratified it in one way or another. So how is it fair that one nation can decided the fate of the EU?

    I think not.

    That said I'm seriously considering spoiling my vote next time round. I voted Yes the first time but we lost, deal with it. However, there's no chance of me voting no.


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    #582
    me_right_one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭me_right_one


    walshb wrote: »
    I respect every persons right to vote how they they see fit.
    Ok, the people voted less than a year ago and already,
    this Government is trying to put the vote to the people again and is using 'oh, we have
    this new assureance and that new assurance'

    My stance is simple, for the sake of democracy and for respect and solidarity to all those
    who voted on Lisbon, I believe that a NO should be voted to send out a clear
    messgae to the government, "How dare you NOT respect the vote of the electorate."

    Had I voted YES, I would now vote NO in solidarity for the right to
    democracy and that to me is correct.

    They did this with the Nice vote too. Over in Europe apologising
    because we exercised our democratic right to vote YES or NO.
    How dare they!

    They forced the 2ND Nice vote; and what happened?
    Yes, we bowed to pressure and voted YES. Instead of sending the
    message again and voting NO; with the YES camp supporting
    their fellow people and switching to NO. The electorate can be very odd!

    Just my take! The whole point I am making is not how to vote or why we should vote YES or NO, it is that we should be RESPECTED and not lectured and forced to VOTE
    a certain way, just because the govt is being dictated to by the EU

    Had some other countries had the vote, the feeling is that a lot would
    also have voted NO!




    I respect YOUR right to vote either way aswell, but come on! The reason the gov wanted us to vote yes in the first place is because ITS THE RIGHT THING TO DO! They trusted that we would have the common sense to see that and vote accordingly. But true to form, the ordinary citizens of Ireland assumed every other ordinary citizen would vote it in, and nobody did. Its kinda like when a fire alarm is going off, everybody assumes somebody already called 999, and then nobody calls it! All the head-cases came out and voted no, you had that sinister english gangster pushing for a no vote, and even sinn fein wanted a no vote. What does that tell you!

    This time round, Europe has had the good sense to look at the key issues that were pi$$ing us off, change what was bothering us the most, and offer up a compromise - Everybody's a winner - Is THAT not democracy?

    All they want now is the go ahead from us - Is THAT not democracy?

    And if we kick them in the goullies and say no again, no doubt they will look even more closley at whatever problems we have, and try to sort them out. If this was Zimbabwey, never mind a civilised, revised, "new and improved" re-run of the vote, there would have been death squads at every front door in Ireland BEFORE the vote to make sure you voted "correctly"

    And to vote no the second time, out of SPITE!?!?!?! Well thats not the gov bending you over, thats you bending yourself over for the biggest international ar$e raping since Dermot McMorough pleasntly invited a psychopathic butcher called Strongbow into our country!

    If you want to send the gov a message about being dictated to, punish THEM, not the Irish people. They're YOUR gov, YOU voted them in, so YOU can vote them out. I know the selection isnt great, but at the end of the day, they ARE your local people - from town councillors to county councillors to TD's, the power is in YOUR hands. Vote for independants who care next time. But whatever you do, do not shoot the collective Irish people in the foot by saying no to the right thing just because you're fueding with your own gov.

    All Lisbon is about is streamlining the decision-making process in Europe. Nobody is getting any extra "say". Its just a red-tape busting exercise, which can only be good. Pity they dont do something similar in the dail!!!

    The only reason anyone should vote for anything, is because it's the right thing to do, whether you like it or not. Stick to the issue, leave other fights for other arenas


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    #583
    B0X
    Registered Users Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭B0X


    HalloweenJack wrote: »
    However, afaik, 25 of the 27 EU countries have ratified it in one way or another. So how is it fair that one nation can decided the fate of the EU?

    But its written in EU law that every nation must ratify a treaty, so its undemocratic in itself to make us go again.

    I however, will still vote Yes. I think its good for us, good for them and the most important thing, bad for Ganley... who is that guy?


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    #584
    skelliser
    Registered Users Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭skelliser


    me_right_one wrote: »

    The only reason anyone should vote for anything, is because it's the right thing to do, whether you like it or not. Stick to the issue, leave other fights for other arenas

    what is this nonsense?!


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    #585
    WooPeeA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭WooPeeA


    hellboy99 wrote: »
    Taking into account the current situation with the country and the lack of concern shown by our government to help I would say it will be another "no" vote. No vote from me again.
    Another person who's gonna vote not on the Treaty but on country's inside government problem.

    How Europe can treat Ireland seriously?


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    #586
    WooPeeA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭WooPeeA


    Vegeta wrote: »
    Hmmmmm I have very mixed feelings about all of this

    I voted yes the last time.

    Saying that, if (realistically, when) this comes around again I feel like voting No.

    Not because the government couldn't run a bath but because the result was No the last time around.

    In respect of that decision, has the Treaty been changed in any significant way? (Hard to do I know especially when most of the reasons people are against the Treaty are untrue)

    If this is put to vote again I may vote No. Is that spiteful and ignorant, probably but I don't like the trend of having to re run voting in such a short space of time.
    2 things:

    1. Ireland vote of course should have been respected but vote of rest of Europe should be respected too.

    2. What if EU will show their ass back to Ireland?


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    #587
    Agent Smith
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 21,503 Mod ✭✭✭✭Agent Smith


    i'm voting yes, because quite frankly



    You're worth it Ireland....


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    #588
    cooperguy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,650 ✭✭✭cooperguy


    The announcement today by Cowen addresses nearly all the issues (however misguided they were) so there should be very little reason for people to vote No now. Apart from of coarse if you want to "Stick it to the government" but those people lack the IQ of the spoon on the desk beside me and wouldnt listen to the issues at hand no matter what they were.


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    #589
    Mrspinkbunny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 48 ✭Mrspinkbunny


    I don`t think we live in a democracy any more I think even if everyone voted no there would still be a yes outcome. I`m a real conspiracy theorist. Like lately they`ve been pumping us full of fear of guns preping us for the new bill to ban LEGAL weapons. So tell me how many LEGAL gun owners have shot people lately? I don`t think someone who goes through the rigorous assessment needed to Legally possess a weapon possesses any threat....but then again who do they possess a threat to? Maybe they`re our last line of defence when we are left in no doubt that we don`t live in a democracy.

    I`m not pro gun at all never shot or held one just passionate about my freedoms!


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    #590
    Ckal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 422 ✭✭Ckal


    WooPeeA wrote: »
    2 things:

    1. Ireland vote of course should have been respected but vote of rest of Europe should be respected too.

    2. What if EU will show their ass back to Ireland?

    I can't respect a certain country's vote when they use scaremonger tactics towards us to vote yes.


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    #591
    Mrspinkbunny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 48 ✭Mrspinkbunny


    PLEASE VOTE NO!!!SEND A LOUD MESSAGE TO THIS CORRUPT GOVERNMENT!!!
    PLEASE VOTE NO!!!SEND A LOUD MESSAGE TO THIS CORRUPT GOVERNMENT!!!
    PLEASE VOTE NO!!!SEND A LOUD MESSAGE TO THIS CORRUPT GOVERNMENT!!!


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    #592
    Ckal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 422 ✭✭Ckal


    cooperguy wrote: »
    The announcement today by Cowen addresses nearly all the issues (however misguided they were) so there should be very little reason for people to vote No now. Apart from of coarse if you want to "Stick it to the government" but those people lack the IQ of the spoon on the desk beside me and wouldnt listen to the issues at hand no matter what they were.

    There is no guarantee that these "assurances" will be followed through. I'd like it if they were, but I somehow see the EU turning around when the **** hits the fan and saying "Those 'assurances' weren't legally binding, therefore we can make changes"


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    #593
    WooPeeA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭WooPeeA


    walshb wrote: »
    I respect every persons right to vote how they they see fit.
    Ok, the people voted less than a year ago and already, this Government is trying to put the vote to the people again and is using 'oh, we have
    this new assureance and that new assurance'

    My stance is simple, for the sake of democracy and for respect and solidarity to all those who voted on Lisbon, I believe that a NO should be voted to send out a clear messgae to the government, "How dare you NOT respect the vote of the electorate."
    Treaty of Lisbon was not made to send messages to anyone. It's the most important document that has been created in the last decade.

    Why not sit down, speak to people, listen to both sides and then decide what's good and what's bad for Ireland and rest of fellow Europeans?



    Had I voted YES, I would now vote NO in solidarity for the right to
    democracy and that to me is correct.
    Next question comes: What Ireland is gonna do without Europe? Did you know that some politicians on highest levels consider that option?
    They did this with the Nice vote too. Over in Europe apologising
    because we exercised our democratic right to vote YES or NO.
    How dare they!
    The campaigns were unclear, one of the sides refused to publish source of their funds and people didn't really know what the treaty is about.

    Many decided to vote no after hearing lies about an articles of the treaty that doesn't really exist.

    You think that was ok?


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    #594
    Ckal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 422 ✭✭Ckal


    WooPeeA wrote: »

    Why not sit down, speak to people, listen to both sides and then decide what's good and what's bad for Ireland and rest of fellow Europeans?

    From what European's are saying, most don't want the treaty ratified.


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    #595
    WooPeeA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭WooPeeA


    Ckal wrote: »
    I can't respect a certain country's vote when they use scaremonger tactics towards us to vote yes.
    What tactics?


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    #596
    WooPeeA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭WooPeeA


    Mrspinkbunny wrote: »
    PLEASE VOTE NO!!!SEND A LOUD MESSAGE TO THIS CORRUPT GOVERNMENT!!!
    PLEASE VOTE NO!!!SEND A LOUD MESSAGE TO THIS CORRUPT GOVERNMENT!!!
    PLEASE VOTE NO!!!SEND A LOUD MESSAGE TO THIS CORRUPT GOVERNMENT!!!
    And automatically become responsible for kicking Ireland out of European community, then wait for the crisis which will come soon, pack your bags and immigrate to USA leaving Ireland poor and forgotten. :D


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    #597
    Ckal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 422 ✭✭Ckal


    WooPeeA wrote: »
    What tactics?

    If you don't vote yes, we'll leave you behind.


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    #598
    utick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 562 ✭✭✭utick


    WooPeeA wrote: »




    Next question comes: What Ireland is gonna do without Europe? Did you know that some politicians on highest levels consider that option?


    ?


    the vote is weather to accept or reject the lisbon treaty, just 2 choices, there is no third choice to leave the eu. the only way ireland can leave is if we vote ourselves out.


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    #599
    WooPeeA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭WooPeeA


    Ckal wrote: »
    From what European's are saying, most don't want the treaty ratified.
    UKIPers are not whole Europe, they are just that loud. :p


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    #600
    Ckal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 422 ✭✭Ckal


    WooPeeA wrote: »
    UKIPers are not whole Europe, they are just that loud. :p

    :P

    The French and Dutch rejected it by referendum. The Czech aren't keen. A good chunk of Germany don't agree with it, and so on and so forth.


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    #601
    cooperguy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,650 ✭✭✭cooperguy


    cooperguy wrote: »
    The announcement today by Cowen addresses nearly all the issues (however misguided they were) so there should be very little reason for people to vote No now. Apart from of coarse if you want to "Stick it to the government" but those people lack the IQ of the spoon on the desk beside me and wouldnt listen to the issues at hand no matter what they were.
    Mrspinkbunny wrote: »
    PLEASE VOTE NO!!!SEND A LOUD MESSAGE TO THIS CORRUPT GOVERNMENT!!!
    PLEASE VOTE NO!!!SEND A LOUD MESSAGE TO THIS CORRUPT GOVERNMENT!!!
    PLEASE VOTE NO!!!SEND A LOUD MESSAGE TO THIS CORRUPT GOVERNMENT!!!

    And my point is proven very quickly!


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