Lisbon 2: prepare to bend over and recieve ur destiny!

cooperguy

OPENROAD wrote: »

So despite what we were told before vote number 1, it was negotiable

Not ideally no, the irish in their wisdom have just made the commision more inefficent. There is no such thing as a commissioner working for Ireland they deal with EU wide issues and risk loosing their jobs if they show bias, therefore we just insisted in a commission more bloated than it needs to be. And it was the only deal on the table at the time

Mrspinkbunny

cooperguy wrote: »

Well I suppose Ill give one quick example. That third world infrastructure your on about, have you noticed any of the new first world stuff? The motorways etc. Now have you noticed the big signs saying funded by the EU?

Also I suppose the full employment up until this year was another happy side effect of the EU

Wow your right I really feel my life has been enriched by the M50...your kidding right. We never had full employment. And those jobs people did have were bulls**t anyway they weren`t real jobs or skills thats why they were the first to go....and it enabled them to get those extorsionate houses that the bank knew would have them in negative equity and that shiny new flooring and furniture that they`ll never be able to pay for....(not that I feel sorry for anyone silly enough to buy into the whole thing) I do however feel very sorry for those thosands of sick people who are at this very moment on trolleys in corridors wondering if there going to have to spend yet another day there (I have had the personal experience of being on a corridor for 48 hour with no blanket because they didn`t have one believe me that would put a bee in your bonnet! And I felt much more sorry for the 93 year old who was to my left for even longer.) You say shiny I say third world when it really matters!

cooperguy

Mrspinkbunny wrote: »

Wow your right I really feel my life has been enriched by the M50...your kidding right. We never had full employment. And those jobs people did have were bulls**t anyway they weren`t real jobs or skills thats why they were the first to go....and it enabled them to get those extorsionate houses that the bank knew would have them in negative equity and that shiny new flooring and furniture that they`ll never be able to pay for....(not that I feel sorry for anyone silly enough to buy into the whole thing) I do however feel very sorry for those thosands of sick people who are at this very moment on trolleys in corridors wondering if there going to have to spend yet another day there (I have had the personal experience of being on a corridor for 48 hour with no blanket because they didn`t have one believe me that would put a bee in your bonnet! And I felt much more sorry for the 93 year old who was to my left for even longer.) You say shiny I say third world when it really matters!

There is more to infrastructure than the M50 you know. And those upgrade works guess who is paying for them too. Where would our infrastructure be without the billions invested by Europe?

Full employment is exactly what we had by the way. 3% unemployment is considered full employment because there is always a small percentage of people who dont want to or cant work.

And dont kid yourself all the "real" jobs from multinationals are only here because of our EU membership which gives the companies the ability to move goods throughout Europe without border controls or taxes (and of coarse our low corporate tax rate). I assume you consider industries involved in medical devices, pharmaceuticals, IT etc. real jobs.

At this stage I do have to ask you, are you actually of voting age?

ShooterSF

Away from debating the treaty Im glad to see the current poll scores showing similar to the last vote.
I'd be disheartened if people who originally voted No were conned by people coming back with the exact same treaty word for word with 1 promise tacked on that has anything to do with Lisbon and 3 promises that should have been accompanied with promises that we wont have to give up meat, beer and sex which are as present in the treaty as abortion conscription and tax.

skelliser

in fairness we gave up one of the richest fishing grounds in the world.
And all these new shiny infastructure like the m6/m7 m50 are tolled roads, we pay for them everytime we use them!
Plus we were nearly 25 years in europe before there was any talk of the celtic tiger.
This idea that we owe europe is a poor one at best and has nothing to do with lisbon. If you voted yes based on that then your just as foolish and ignorant as the no idiots who voted just to get one over on the gov.

Mrspinkbunny

cooperguy wrote: »

There is more to infrastructure than the M50 you know. And those upgrade works guess who is paying for them too. Where would our infrastructure be without the billions invested by Europe?

Full employment is exactly what we had by the way. 3% unemployment is considered full employment because there is always a small percentage of people who dont want to or cant work.

And dont kid yourself all the "real" jobs from multinationals are only here because of our EU membership which gives the companies the ability to move goods throughout Europe without border controls or taxes (and of coarse our low corporate tax rate). I assume you consider industries involved in medical devices, pharmaceuticals, IT etc. real jobs.

At this stage I do have to ask you, are you actually of voting age?

Don`t patronise me I`m almost thirty.I think its you who is immature and naive. They just should have given everyone a million or two because they got enough money to...where did it go? Rights so where are these jobs now? What positive elements are we left with now that the bubbles burst? Rich richer poor poorer any update? Any rebuttal to my comment on our third world health centre?.... Don`t worry you`ll have some when your sick! But then I take it from your views that your one of the "richer" still in your big office?...are you here because business is slow or because you have minions...Anyway you won`t be heading to the same hospitals as the rest of us will you?...

cooperguy

Mrspinkbunny wrote: »

Don`t patronise me I`m almost thirty.I think its you who is immature and naive. They just should have given everyone a million or two because they got enough money to...where did it go? Rights so where are these jobs now? What positive elements are we left with now that the bubbles burst? Rich richer poor poorer any update? Any rebuttal to my comment on our third world health centre?.... Don`t worry you`ll have some when your sick! But then I take it from your views that your one of the "richer" still in your big office?...are you here because business is slow or because you have minions...Anyway you won`t be heading to the same hospitals as the rest of us will you?...

Actually im in my twenties and far from these rich people you talk of. However my job like thousands and thousands more that are still around is only here because we are a member state of the EU. I work for a large american multinational, where do you work? It is probably dependant whether directly or indirectly on these multinationals which are still here by the way no matter how often you repeat otherwise. That is a point you never took me up on. Do you not consider all those jobs in IT, Medical, pharmaceuticals etc. real. That also answers your question on positive elements that are still here after the bubble.

Have you noticed the job announcements from many major medical multinationals in the last few months? Hell Abbott are running radio adverts at the moment. All real jobs.

And finally another positive even though the bubble is gone is all the infrastructure that has been built and skelliser the vast majority of these are not tolled so stop trying to pretend that all this infrastructure is.

And as for the health service what do you want me to say about it? Im not saying its amazing but how are you saying its the EUs fault. That is ridiculously bad money management on behalf of the HSE and the government.

Tomohawk

No means No! Well it used to mean that in a democracy, I'm just not sure anymore.

tedstriker

People need to understand there place. We are a small island with 4 million people. The EU has 500,000,000 people. If we decide that the lisbon treaty is a no go then there is only 1 thing that will happen. We will remain in the EU but the 26 other countries will create another treaty themselves and they will push ahead with the very needed changes to the structure of the EU or at least their section of the EU.

Think about this, the population of mainland China is about 1.3 BILLION and in about 15 or 20 years they will be running the world. They have an educated, capable work force who work for less money. Europe needs to be placed well if it is to deal with the rise of other super powers, particularly China.

Economies like Germany for example, who have a GDP of about $2.8 Trillion compared with Ireland who have a GDP of about $188 billion, will look at Ireland as being the country between them and sturdy future.

The reason for lisbon 2 coming so quick is because the other countries will not delay their stance anymore and are more than happy to cut Ireland out of the loop if we vote no again.

If we weren't in the EU or the Euro then we would, right now, be worse off than Iceland so europe is good for us. That is as plain as the nose on your face.

This lisbon treaty is not about small issues such as "Jaysus, they might schneak in abortion and all that craic". At least 5,000 people travel to just the UK each year for an abortion. "Well jaysus, artent we a newtral country, i'm not going to war" - Our history is soaked with the blood of war so get over your moral high ground. (We even sent condolences to the Nazis after Hitlers death). You've got your reassurances now anyway.

I could go on.

Put things into perspective. We are a small land and we need Europe (especially now) more than they need us. This is a very important decision, that can not be understated so if you vote no then for the love of god do it for the right reasons.

skelliser

cooperguy wrote: »

And finally another positive even though the bubble is gone is all the infrastructure that has been built and skelliser the vast majority of these are not tolled so stop trying to pretend that all this infrastructure is.

well at least 40% if not 50% of the motorways here are or will be tolled, and major building only begun in the last ten years.

whatisayis

Tedstriker said:
"If we decide that the lisbon treaty is a no go then there is only 1 thing that will happen. We will remain in the EU but the 26 other countries will create another treaty themselves and they will push ahead with the very needed changes to the structure of the EU or at least their section of the EU."

If that was possible, why are we being asked to vote again?

skelliser

tedstriker wrote: »

People need to understand there place. We are a small island with 4 million people. The EU has 500,000,000 people. If we decide that the lisbon treaty is a no go then there is only 1 thing that will happen. We will remain in the EU but the 26 other countries will create another treaty themselves and they will push ahead with the very needed changes to the structure of the EU or at least their section of the EU.

Think about this, the population of mainland China is about 1.3 BILLION and in about 15 or 20 years they will be running the world. They have an educated, capable work force who work for less money. Europe needs to be placed well if it is to deal with the rise of other super powers, particularly China.

Economies like Germany for example, who have a GDP of about $2.8 Trillion compared with Ireland who have a GDP of about $188 billion, will look at Ireland as being the country between them and sturdy future.

The reason for lisbon 2 coming so quick is because the other countries will not delay their stance anymore and are more than happy to cut Ireland out of the loop if we vote no again.

If we weren't in the EU or the Euro then we would, right now, be worse off than Iceland so europe is good for us. That is as plain as the nose on your face.

This lisbon treaty is not about small issues such as "Jaysus, they might schneak in abortion and all that craic". At least 5,000 people travel to just the UK each year for an abortion. "Well jaysus, artent we a newtral country, i'm not going to war" - Our history is soaked with the blood of war so get over your moral high ground. (We even sent condolences to the Nazis after Hitlers death). You've got your reassurances now anyway.

I could go on.

Put things into perspective. We are a small land and we need Europe (especially now) more than they need us. This is a very important decision, that can not be understated so if you vote no then for the love of god do it for the right reasons.

spoken better then gay mitchell!

im sick of saying this, lisbon cannot be ratified without us. They cannot move ahead on there own.
This scaremongering that we will be left behind is rubbish, we were told this before lisbon 1 and what happened, nothing.

SmashingPilot

Sorry to be slightly off topic but can somebody please, if possible, provide a link where I can get a copy of the lisbon treaty.

Basically, I turned 18 a few months ago, looking forward to voting and really want to understand topics like the Lisbon Treaty. I feel reading it in the media always gives you a slightly different perspective, for some reason.

Am I wrong for not trusting them??

I think this along with Local and European elections next year will be my first chances to vote.

cooperguy

skelliser wrote: »

well at least 40% if not 50% of the motorways here are or will be tolled, and major building only begun in the last ten years.

There is much more to infrastructure than a few motorways around Dublin!!! One very quick example would be all the bypasses etc. Whether they were built in the last 10 years or not does not take away from the fact that they were funded (at least partially) by the EU.

skelliser

here ya go http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/full_text/index_en.htm

theres a link there where you can order it for free, you may aswell get a hardcopy, its much easier to read a physical copy.

tedstriker

whatisayis wrote: »

Tedstriker said:
"If we decide that the lisbon treaty is a no go then there is only 1 thing that will happen. We will remain in the EU but the 26 other countries will create another treaty themselves and they will push ahead with the very needed changes to the structure of the EU or at least their section of the EU."

If that was possible, why are we being asked to vote again?

..because so much time has gone into making Lisbon work they want to make sure they have given it every single chance and that when/if Ireland reject it again we can have no complaints when they move off. Isn't that fairly obvious in fairness.

cooperguy

SmashingPilot wrote: »

Sorry to be slightly off topic but can somebody please, if possible, provide a link where I can get a copy of the lisbon treaty.

Basically, I turned 18 a few months ago, looking forward to voting and really want to understand topics like the Lisbon Treaty. I feel reading it in the media always gives you a slightly different perspective, for some reason.

Am I wrong for not trusting them??

I think this along with Local and European elections next year will be my first chances to vote.

A good place to get info is over in the EU forum. They have discussed all the major issues and should be able to give you all the links you need.

SmashingPilot

Thanks very much for both links.

I'll leave ye all to it so. hehe!! :cool:

tedstriker

skelliser wrote: »

spoken better then gay mitchell!

im sick of saying this, lisbon cannot be ratified without us. They cannot move ahead on there own.
This scaremongering that we will be left behind is rubbish, we were told this before lisbon 1 and what happened, nothing.

Of course lisbon cannot be ratified without us. They'll throw it out the window if we vote no and then come up with a 2 tier structure that will see the big economies on one side and the smaller on the other.

We're not the only country with the ability to make a choice here.

Mrspinkbunny

cooperguy wrote: »

Actually im in my twenties and far from these rich people you talk of. However my job like thousands and thousands more that are still around is only here because we are a member state of the EU. I work for a large american multinational, where do you work? It is probably dependant whether directly or indirectly on these multinationals which are still here by the way no matter how often you repeat otherwise. That is a point you never took me up on. Do you not consider all those jobs in IT, Medical, pharmaceuticals etc. real. That also answers your question on positive elements that are still here after the bubble.

Have you noticed the job announcements from many major medical multinationals in the last few months? Hell Abbott are running radio adverts at the moment. All real jobs.

And finally another positive even though the bubble is gone is all the infrastructure that has been built and skelliser the vast majority of these are not tolled so stop trying to pretend that all this infrastructure is.

And as for the health service what do you want me to say about it? Im not saying its amazing but how are you saying its the EUs fault. That is ridiculously bad money management on behalf of the HSE and the government.

I`m actually a mature student ran a business (bit of a high flyer) chucked it wasn`t happy. More to life and all that. Although after the Law exam today I`m not so sure! No was never dependant nor benefited from a multinational. I reckon the pollution from all these multinational out ways any recent or current benefits. The damage is yet to be seen! Your right it is the fault of the Government and i am of the opinion that we should not trust them there up to no good how is giving ourself less power a good plan??

skelliser

cooperguy wrote: »

There is much more to infrastructure than a few motorways around Dublin!!! One very quick example would be all the bypasses etc. Whether they were built in the last 10 years or not does not take away from the fact that they were funded (at least partially) by the EU.

im not denying that in the least, but the yes side would swear we are the only country to get funds. Spain have gotten way more in structural funds, in fact they got the highest amount, almost 25%

googs

I don't believe all this crap that the reason there was a no vote the first time round was that the people were "misinformed" or "didn't understand it because it was too complex"... Just because we got money for infrastructural improvements years ago doesn't mean that we have to completely give away what little power we have left in the EU.. everything comes with a price.... the handouts from the EU weren't free ! the price we had to pay was the handing over of our vast territorial waters to the French and Spanish...

Voted no the first time, will vote no again..... and if there is a no vote and we get booted out......which is highly unlikely -> f^&k it.... just go the way of the Swiss and Norwegians... join the European Free Trade Area....

cooperguy

Mrspinkbunny wrote: »

I`m actually a mature student ran a business (bit of a high flyer) chucked it wasn`t happy. More to life and all that. Although after the Law exam today I`m not so sure! No was never dependant nor benefited from a multinational. I reckon the pollution from all these multinational out ways any recent or current benefits. The damage is yet to be seen! Your right it is the fault of the Government and i am of the opinion that we should not trust them there up to no good how is giving ourself less power a good plan??

Ill have to disagree with you (again!) IT, Medical devices etc. are low pollution industries. I wont deny there are some polluting however far from all of them. How are we handing away power?

ShooterSF

tedstriker wrote: »

Our history is soaked with the blood of war so get over your moral high ground. (We even sent condolences to the Nazis after Hitlers death).

Just a small point but we also sent the allies condolences. That's what neutrality is. Not taking one side.

whatisayis

Quote:
Originally Posted by whatisayis
Tedstriker said:
"If we decide that the lisbon treaty is a no go then there is only 1 thing that will happen. We will remain in the EU but the 26 other countries will create another treaty themselves and they will push ahead with the very needed changes to the structure of the EU or at least their section of the EU."

If that was possible, why are we being asked to vote again?

tedstriker wrote: »

..because so much time has gone into making Lisbon work they want to make sure they have given it every single chance and that when/if Ireland reject it again we can have no complaints when they move off. Isn't that fairly obvious in fairness.

No, it's fairly indicitive of bullyboy, undemocratic tactics.

skelliser

if and i beleive when libertas to well in the e.u elections and the gov. collapses after there upcoming destruction in the local elections, this treaty will be dead.

ejmaztec

skelliser wrote: »

im not denying that in the least, but the yes side would swear we are the only country to get funds. Spain have gotten way more in structural funds, in fact they got the highest amount, almost 25%

I'm on the "Yes" side and I don't know anyone with more half a brain cell who imagined Ireland to be the only country to get funds.

skelliser

i voted yes aswell, but unlike you im not one of the arrogant yes voters who are quick to knock down and belittle what other people have to say.

the impression i was getting from the yes campaign was that we had got alot of funds from europe and moreso then other countries and that we should bare this in mind and when voting. my point is, it was as if they were tryin to guilt trip people. That is all.

Wacko

skelliser wrote: »

i voted yes aswell, but unlike you im not one of the arrogant yes voters who are quick to knock down and belittle what other people have to say.

the impression i was getting from the yes campaign was that we had got alot of funds from europe and moreso then other countries and that we should bare this in mind and when voting. my point is, it was as if they were tryin to guilt trip people. That is all.

I also don´t understand that argument at all, if your local TD comes round to your house tomorrow with a brown paper envelope and says that´s for the new driveway your getting put down, then 3 years later he comes around again and says remember that envelope I gave you...... well you should remember it when going to vote. I think it´s called electoral fraud, so in other words the money we have recieved from the EU should have no role to play in people´s desicion on Lisbon.

ejmaztec

skelliser wrote: »

i voted yes aswell, but unlike you im not one of the arrogant yes voters who are quick to knock down and belittle what other people have to say.

the impression i was getting from the yes campaign was that we had got alot of funds from europe and moreso then other countries and that we should bare this in mind and when voting. my point is, it was as if they were tryin to guilt trip people. That is all.

I wasn't belittling you, just pointing out an obvious error.