Lisbon 2: prepare to bend over and recieve ur destiny!

Gandalf23

I voted yes last time.

I'll be voting NO this time.

whatisayis

anonymous_joe wrote: »

People believed abortion tax and conscription were part of the Treaty. They were lied to. They might not have voted no if they'd known the truth.

People also beleived, and will now be asked to believe again, that Ireland will retain a commissioner. They are being lied to. They might not have voted yes if they'd known the truth.

Run_to_da_hills

Gandalf23 wrote: »

I voted yes last time.

I'll be voting NO this time.

II vioted No the last time and i will be voting NO this time.

My name is Mud

whatisayis wrote: »

Ireland will retain a commissioner.

Does anybody realise that an EU commissioner DOSENT WORK FOR THEIR HOME COUNTRY???

They work on behalf of the whole EU on a separate policy issue, per commissioner.

The new amendment proposed on the Croatia ascention treaty will mean that each country will now be able to have a commissioner, who will have a responsibility to act on behalf each member state, not their home member state's interests.

The Lisbon 1 amendments were fine, as there are too many commissioners at the moment.

With the amendments they now have to start making up commissioner positions now all because of the Irish "no" vote.

And im sure that the anti-EU campaigners will use that as a beating stick in a few years...

sillysasauge

If we said yes last time, we should have had a re-vote and voted no, just to show that YES WE CAN!!Obama style

Terry

whatisayis wrote: »

People also beleived, and will now be asked to believe again, that Ireland will retain a commissioner. They are being lied to. They might not have voted yes if they'd known the truth.

By Fionnan Sheahan Political Editor in Brussels

Saturday December 13 2008

Taoiseach Brian Cowen last night said he was "confident" the planned second referendum on the Lisbon Treaty will be successful.

But Mr Cowen said the Government would have to take it "step by step" and stressed he was not yet in position to formally call a second poll by next October.

Following an EU summit, at which he secured concessions on four major issues of concern for the Irish people, Mr Cowen is on track to run Lisbon II.

"On the basis of the agreement today, and on condition of our being able to satisfactorily put guarantees in place, I have said that I would be prepared to return to the public to put a new package and to seek their approval to it," he said.

Notably, he struck a conciliatory tone with Fine Gael and the Labour Party, saying he would be meeting Enda Kenny and Eamon Gilmore to brief them on the outcome of the summit.

"I'd like to emphasise again that this is a national issue of huge importance to Ireland, clearly over and above party politics," he said.

EU Heads of State agreed that each country will retain a European Commissioner and agreement was reached on giving Ireland guarantees that the treaty won't affect abortion, neutrality and taxation policy.

The legal wording on each may not be drafted until June, at which point Mr Cowen will be free to call the referendum.

Mr Cowen said the Government would only come to a decision on the date of the referendum when the detailed legal and technical work is completed.

"That being the case, I am confident, given the importance of this as a national issue, the many people in Ireland and the many parties in Ireland that support our participation in Europe, that we will be successful in that event. But, as I say, I am taking this step by step and I think it is important that we do so and not project ourselves beyond where we are at," he said.

The importance of workers' rights will be stressed, but, following concerns by the British, the precise wording on this issue appeared to be watered down.

Mr Cowen said it was not correct to say the Government didn't get what it wanted on this topic, even though there doesn't seem to be any difference between what is agreed on workers' rights and what was already there.

Unions

"The important point to make about workers' rights, of course, is that we have seen the adoption of the Charter [of Fundamental Rights] that is incorporated into the Treaty of Lisbon that provides us with the best means of securing rights for workers," he said.

The mention of workers' rights was intended to ensure trade unions would back Lisbon II, after the country's largest trade union, SIPTU, did not call for a 'Yes' vote in the first referendum.

Before the conclusions were even published, SIPTU general president Jack O'Connor said he "welcomed the belated recognition that action to protect people's rights at work is central to any prospect of endorsement of the Lisbon Treaty in Ireland".

But last night, he dampened down this endorsement of the outcome after hearing reports the Government may be rowing back on employment rights issues.

"We have to assess the substance of what is being proposed, but workers voted overwhelmingly against the original proposition and are unlikely to be attracted by an alternative unless issues relating to people's rights at work are addressed in a tangible and meaningful way," he said.

Mr Cowen also confirmed the end of October as the deadline for holding the referendum.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who holds the EU Presidency, said: "The Lisbon process is relaunched. I'd just like to tell you how brave the Irish prime minister has been."

Ireland's legal guarantees will be attached to another treaty being brought in to allow Croatia to join the EU in 2010.

- Fionnan Sheahan Political Editor in Brussels

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cowen-confident-of-yes-vote-for-lisbon-rerun-1573730.html
The treaty has been changed.
It is not the same treaty.

If you cannot see that it isd different, then you don't deserve the right to vote.

Nigsy

Terry wrote: »

If you cannot see that it isd different, then you don't deserve the right to vote.

Well if it was different every country would have to ratify it again. They don't, and its not.

Nigsy

My name is Mud wrote: »

Does anybody realise that an EU commissioner DOSENT WORK FOR THEIR HOME COUNTRY???

Well aware of this, mate. I voted NO the first time, and I'll vote NO on the second/third/fourth time.

That is why the governments attempts at concessions are so pathetic, they do not alter a thing.

sillysasauge

Nigsy wrote: »

Well aware of this, mate. I voted NO the first time, and I'll vote NO on the second/third/fourth time.

That is why the governments attempts at concessions are so pathetic, they do not alter a thing.

You make a fair point!

Nigsy

Here's another thing about the government funded report on the reasons for the NO vote. The report finds stupid reasons such as; commissioner, lack of clarity, lack of promotion. Of course all these matters are trivial.

If the report was truthful and stated that the people want nothing to do with this corrupt institution, what then??

It would be a joke only for the fact that due to "global interdependence" they could isolate this country and cause anarchy any time they wish.

whatisayis

Terry wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cowen-confident-of-yes-vote-for-lisbon-rerun-1573730.html
The treaty has been changed.
It is not the same treaty.

If you cannot see that it isd different, then you don't deserve the right to vote.

The treaty CANNOT be changed. If one word is changed, every country has to begin the process of ratification again. All they are saying is that after the treaty is agreed by Ireland, they will tack on new assurances for the Irish public. The problem with the treaty, in a nutshell, is that Irelands voice in Europe will be reduced as the proposal includes a provision whereby future lawmaking will be based on population size therefore the large countries will always carry the vote. It also contains a provision that EU law overrides national law - in Ireland that means the constitution. So, those who say that in the future it will not affect Ireland's current laws are being a bit naive.

sillysasauge

whatisayis wrote: »

The treaty CANNOT be changed. If one word is changed, every country has to begin the process of ratification again. All they are saying is that after the treaty is agreed by Ireland, they will tack on new assurances for the Irish public. The problem with the treaty, in a nutshell, is that Irelands voice in Europe will be reduced as the proposal includes a provision whereby future lawmaking will be based on population size therefore the large countries will always carry the vote. It also contains a provision that EU law overrides national law - in Ireland that means the constitution. So, those who say that in the future it will not affect Ireland's current laws are being a bit naive.

Now that is what I call an argument!! BOY BETTER KNOW!! ya get me!

thebman

Nigsy wrote: »

Here's another thing about the government funded report on the reasons for the NO vote. The report finds stupid reasons such as; commissioner, lack of clarity, lack of promotion. Of course all these matters are trivial.

If the report was truthful and stated that the people want nothing to do with this corrupt institution, what then??

It would be a joke only for the fact that due to "global interdependence" they could isolate this country and cause anarchy any time they wish.

If we disbanded every corrupt political instituition we'd be left with Anarchy.

Ciaran500

sillysasauge wrote: »

Now that is what I call an argument!! BOY BETTER KNOW!! ya get me!

If you have nothing to add then don't post.

sillysasauge

Ciaran500 wrote: »

If you have nothing to add then don't post.

ok, was just my way of saying I agreed with him

tolosenc

whatisayis wrote: »

future lawmaking will be based on population size

Like democracy?

Ckal

WooPeeA wrote: »

If they did then another country would disagree with the treaty. And it would goes on and on..

People should know that we finally found a compromise, we should accept it rather than looking for another argues.


Another thing is that even if they wanted to do so, Irish are not able to show the articles with which they disagree. The reasons to vote no were mostly country's inside problems and all other reasons but not the Treaty itself.

But surely if they can change it legally for the French and the Dutch, they can change it for us, too? The amendments the No side want will have little effect on others countries. These amendments that we want are for our peace of mind, we aren't making every other EU country change anything in their constitution or country. We just want to know that we can hold our own referendum on Abortion. We want to know that we will stay neutral. I think we have a right to that.

This was on Rté news last night, actually. And they specifically said that these amendments are not legally binding, therefore the treaty has not been changed... so it is the exact same treaty.

melekalikimaka wrote: »

thats what got the no vote in the first place tho

It's either that or because we are too thick to understand it. Can Yes voters please stick to one argument?

Ckal

Ciaran500 wrote: »

If you have nothing to add then don't post.

(S)He was agreeing with a post.

Ciaran500

Ckal wrote: »

(S)He was agreeing with a post.

I know, but if everyone made a post for every post they agreed with the thread would be completely unreadable. Use the thanks button if you must let people know that you agree with them.

dlofnep

What's the word on workers rights?

whatisayis

obl wrote: »

Like democracy?

One of the basic principles of Democracy is 'one person, one vote'. This situation is more like an authoritarian regime where the democratic rules have now been changed to "one person, as many votes as it takes until you agree with us". No need to worry though, if the Treaty is passed our population is so small that the vote of the Irish people will continue to be of no consequence.

Highsider

IMO the goverment are going to be very sorry about another vote. Think the No crowd will walk it again.

WooPeeA

Terry wrote: »

The Polish have yet to ratify the treaty.

They will. Parliament voted for YES, Constitutional Tribunal gave green light, now the president is obligated to sign it.

WooPeeA

Gandalf23 wrote: »

I voted yes last time.

I'll be voting NO this time.

What convinced you? You're aware of the fact that you vote on the same text as before, don't you?

thelordofcheese

Ckal wrote: »

But surely if they can change it legally for the French and the Dutch, they can change it for us, too? The amendments the No side want will have little effect on others countries. These amendments that we want are for our peace of mind, we aren't making every other EU country change anything in their constitution or country. We just want to know that we can hold our own referendum on Abortion. We want to know that we will stay neutral. I think we have a right to that.

This was on Rté news last night, actually. And they specifically said that these amendments are not legally binding, therefore the treaty has not been changed... so it is the exact same treaty.

This is exactly what happened before with the Nice treaty. See: The seville declarations.

Basically, a piece of paper that clears up the questions that we seem to have, or rather the lies enough of us swallowed.

Ckal wrote: »

It's either that or because we are too thick to understand it. Can Yes voters please stick to one argument?

Because people who voted yes as all part of a hive mind, while the no voters are rebels, fightin' the powah and sticking it to the man!

Is that the romantacised scenario you're subscribing to, or was it "the last sane man" trope?
I can never tell......

Sam Vimes

hellboy99 wrote: »

Taking into account the current situation with the country and the lack of concern shown by our government to help I would say it will be another "no" vote. No vote from me again.

I have read none of the thread but i just wanted to reply to this. The lisbon treaty has ****ing nothing to do with the ****ing irish government. If you're not happy with the irish government, you get to voice that opposition in the general election. Voting no for that reason says nothing except you haven't a clue what you're talking about. If you have no strong feelings one way or the other ON THE CONTENT OF THE TREATY, then don't ****ing vote

Sam Vimes

whatisayis wrote: »

One of the basic principles of Democracy is 'one person, one vote'. This situation is more like an authoritarian regime where the democratic rules have now been changed to "one person, as many votes as it takes until you agree with us". No need to worry though, if the Treaty is passed our population is so small that the vote of the Irish people will continue to be of no consequence.

Well not exactly. Last time we voted no to abortion, an eu army, losing our commissioner, the irish government etc etc. This time we're going to be voting on the lisbon treaty, which of course has nothing to do with any of the above

Ckal

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Because people who voted yes as all part of a hive mind, while the no voters are rebels, fightin' the powah and sticking it to the man!

Is that the romantacised scenario you're subscribing to, or was it "the last sane man" trope?
I can never tell......

You can't seriously categorize all no voters as rebels. This thinking is exactly why No voters think some Yes voters are a pack of spas. Most No voters voted for what they believe in, as did most Yes voters. That's the way referendums work.

You have an x-amount of No voters voting no because they didn't know what they were voting for. You have x-amount of Yes voters voting yes because they either like Fianna Fail or don't know what they are voting for but will agree because they like the government. The 'thick ones' are on both sides of the argument.

Ckal

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Well not exactly. Last time we voted no to abortion, an eu army, losing our commissioner, the irish government etc etc. This time we're going to be voting on the lisbon treaty, which of course has nothing to do with any of the above

But we already voted on the Lisbon Treaty, and our vote was rejected. I think that's why people are getting annoyed.

Sam Vimes

Ckal wrote: »

But we already voted on the Lisbon Treaty, and our vote was rejected. I think that's why people are getting annoyed.

My point was that an awful lot of people (everyone i spoke to anyway) voted no for reasons that had nothing to do with the treaty, eg lies told by the no side and so they haven't actually voted on lisbon yet

Tbh, if i voted no and subsequently found out i'd been fed a pack of lies i'd be delighted with a chance to rectify my mistake