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Lisbon 2: prepare to bend over and recieve ur destiny!

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    #722
    Ciaran500
    Registered Users Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    My point was that an awful lot of people (everyone i spoke to anyway) voted no for reasons that had nothing to do with the treaty, eg lies told by the no side and so they haven't actually voted on lisbon yet
    Same with my friends, any of them that voted no had some ridiculous untrue reason that they couldn't be talked down from or decided to vote no because they wouldn't vote yes to something they couldn't understand.


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    #723
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,053 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    My point was that an awful lot of people (everyone i spoke to anyway) voted no for reasons that had nothing to do with the treaty, eg lies told by the no side and so they haven't actually voted on lisbon yet

    Tbh, if i voted no and subsequently found out i'd been fed a pack of lies i'd be delighted with a chance to rectify my mistake

    The danger now is that some of the no voters the last time, even though they now know they were listening to wrong people, will vote no again out of spite - just to stick it to the ones referring to them as idiots for voting no the last time.


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    #724
    WooPeeA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭WooPeeA


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    My point was that an awful lot of people (everyone i spoke to anyway) voted no for reasons that had nothing to do with the treaty, eg lies told by the no side and so they haven't actually voted on lisbon yet

    Tbh, if i voted no and subsequently found out i'd been fed a pack of lies i'd be delighted with a chance to rectify my mistake
    The Lisbon Treaty is the most important document in Europe in the last decade. The Treaty will cover 500 million people and Ireland plays now very important role in this international project.

    Lies on the No side (funded by unknown sources, but that's different story) were made to manipulate country's decision.

    Honest campaign - alright.
    Tough campaign - ok, if they have to..
    But lies = planned manipulation of public


    My question is: Is it legal to do such things? How is it legal that one of the political sides can quote an articles that doesn't really exist in public without any consequences to gain unknown goal on political level?


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    #725
    Ckal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 422 ✭✭Ckal


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    My point was that an awful lot of people (everyone i spoke to anyway) voted no for reasons that had nothing to do with the treaty, eg lies told by the no side and so they haven't actually voted on lisbon yet

    Tbh, if i voted no and subsequently found out i'd been fed a pack of lies i'd be delighted with a chance to rectify my mistake

    I totally agree, but you'll always have those types of votes in a referendum. If the treaty was passed, and most yes voters voted but they didn't know what they were voting for, would we have to vote again since they didn't vote on Lisbon, either?

    Don't get me wrong, I'd vote Yes if these "assurances" are legally binding and will happen. But until we see proof that these will not just change when somebody says so, then I'll be voting no. :)


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    #726
    Terry
    Registered Users Posts: 26,061 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Well not exactly. Last time we voted no to abortion, an eu army, losing our commissioner, the irish government etc etc. This time we're going to be voting on the lisbon treaty, which of course has nothing to do with any of the above
    Some times people don't want to see what's right in front of them.
    They want to believe the lies because they don't like the government.

    Ciaran500 wrote: »
    Same with my friends, any of them that voted no had some ridiculous untrue reason that they couldn't be talked down from or decided to vote no because they wouldn't vote yes to something they couldn't understand.
    Why not explain it to them or show them a broken down version?

    WooPeeA wrote: »
    The Lisbon Treaty is the most important document in Europe in the last decade. The Treaty will cover 500 million people and Ireland plays now very important role in this international project.

    Lies on the No side (funded by unknown sources, but that's different story) were made to manipulate country's decision.

    Honest campaign - alright.
    Tough campaign - ok, if they have to..
    But lies = planned manipulation of public


    My question is: Is it legal to do such things? How is it legal that one of the political sides can quote an articles that doesn't really exist in public without any consequences to gain unknown goal on political level?

    I'm not one for conspiracy theories. In fact, if you search the CT forum, I don't think you would find any posts by me that don't contain the words "moved from AH", but I truly believe the opponents to this treaty are up to no good and have something to hide (namely who funded them).


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    #727
    Ciaran500
    Registered Users Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    Terry wrote: »
    Why not explain it to them or show them a broken down version?
    Tried, definitely tried.


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    #728
    whatisayis
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭whatisayis


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Well not exactly. Last time we voted no to abortion, an eu army, losing our commissioner, the irish government etc etc. This time we're going to be voting on the lisbon treaty, which of course has nothing to do with any of the above

    As you said earlier, you have not read the thread. My original comment was as follows:
    whatisayis wrote: »
    The problem with the treaty, in a nutshell, is that Irelands voice in Europe will be reduced as the proposal includes a provision whereby future lawmaking will be based on population size therefore the large countries will always carry the vote. It also contains a provision that EU law overrides national law - in Ireland that means the constitution. So, those who say that in the future it will not affect Ireland's current laws are being a bit naive.

    What I meant is that by voting Yes there is the potential inherent in the treaty to override Irelands existing laws. I would prefer to be proved wrong in this assumption but that's the way it stands at the moment.
    I am in no way anti EU, I just think this treaty is flawed in that erodes the democratic right of Ireland of a say in her own affairs.


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    #729
    mumhaabu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,031 ✭✭✭mumhaabu


    I am voting No after reading the some of the treaty and I believe everybody here should Vote No to bury the treaty and the show them that Irish people will not be fooled by the lies of Europe.

    A yes vote represents a vote for several things,
    • It is a vote for socialism,and left wing Authoritarianism,
    • a vote for corruption, and bloated waste and bureaucracy of the EU,
    • a vote for removing our sovereignty.
    • a vote that says we can be bullied and trampled on by German and French Eurocrats.
    • a vote for a federal United States of Europe where Ireland will have little or no say in our affairs.
    • a yes vote will admit Turkey an Islamic country into Christian Europe, and further Expansion beyond Europe into North Africa and the Caucuses.
    • a yes vote will see abortion legalised, as European law will super-ceed Irish law.
    • a yes vote could see young Irish men & women conscripted into a federal European Army to fight in future wars that are not ours to fight.
    • a yes vote will designate the Irish Constitution to History as every thing will be dictated from Europe.
    • a yes vote is a vote of confidence in the current Fianna Fail government and a vote that says you are ok with higher taxes and less income and an uncertain future. If you don't understand it Vote No, and Vote No to punish the government because once it is rejected Brian Cowan will have to resign and the Government will collapse leading to a general election. Vote NO to this Government and Dictatorship from Brussels.

    However by all means be brainwashed and vote yes, however your children won't thank you for it.


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    #730
    whatisayis
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭whatisayis


    Terry wrote: »
    Some times people don't want to see what's right in front of them.
    They want to believe the lies because they don't like the government.

    Not true, whether I like or dislike the government has absolutely nothing to do with my opinion of the treaty.

    I'm not one for conspiracy theories. In fact, if you search the CT forum, I don't think you would find any posts by me that don't contain the words "moved from AH", but I truly believe the opponents to this treaty are up to no good and have something to hide (namely who funded them).

    Could you elaborate on 'up to no good'? I have nothing to hide and, unfortunately, I am funded by no one.


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    #731
    Ciaran500
    Registered Users Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    mumhaabu wrote: »
    [*]a yes vote will admit Turkey an Islamic country into Christian Europe, and further Expansion beyond Europe into North Africa and the Caucuses.
    Whats wrong with that?

    Also alot of your other reasons are flat out wrong.


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    #732
    mumhaabu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,031 ✭✭✭mumhaabu


    Considering Turkey has very bad Human rights abuses and its economy is totally incompatible with the rest of the EU. It would open an EU land border with Iraq and all it would lead to is a flood of millions and millions of economic migrants into Europe that is bad for Turkey and Europe. Plus Turkey has many fundamentalist muslims who would love nothing else than impose Sharia law over Europe and eradicate Christianity.


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    #733
    Terry
    Registered Users Posts: 26,061 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    whatisayis wrote: »
    Could you elaborate on 'up to no good'? I have nothing to hide and, unfortunately, I am funded by no one.
    I wasn't talking about you.

    mumhaabu wrote: »
    Considering Turkey has very bad Human rights abuses and its economy is totally incompatible with the rest of the EU. It would open an EU land border with Iraq and all it would lead to is a flood of millions and millions of economic migrants into Europe that is bad for Turkey and Europe. Plus Turkey has many fundamentalist muslims who would love nothing else than impose Sharia law over Europe and eradicate Christianity.

    This is a good one.

    You do realise that this country would be a complete hole without the funding we recieved from to EU, don't you?

    As for your scaremongering about Sharia law, I really think you need to take that over to the Conspiracy Theories forum because it does not belong here.


  • Options
    #734
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    WooPeeA wrote: »
    The Lisbon Treaty is the most important document in Europe in the last decade. The Treaty will cover 500 million people and Ireland plays now very important role in this international project.

    Lies on the No side (funded by unknown sources, but that's different story) were made to manipulate country's decision.

    Honest campaign - alright.
    Tough campaign - ok, if they have to..
    But lies = planned manipulation of public


    My question is: Is it legal to do such things? How is it legal that one of the political sides can quote an articles that doesn't really exist in public without any consequences to gain unknown goal on political level?

    Lies were made on both sides of the debate, and no one was willing to call the other for fear of that being shown. People should listen to the debates but they need to make up their own minds about what people are arguing for or against.


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    #735
    cooperguy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,650 ✭✭✭cooperguy


    mumhaabu wrote: »
    I am voting No after reading the some of the treaty and I believe everybody here should Vote No to bury the treaty and the show them that Irish people will not be fooled by the lies of Europe.

    A yes vote represents a vote for several things,
    • It is a vote for socialism,and left wing Authoritarianism,
    • a vote for corruption, and bloated waste and bureaucracy of the EU,
    • a vote for removing our sovereignty.
    • a vote that says we can be bullied and trampled on by German and French Eurocrats.
    • a vote for a federal United States of Europe where Ireland will have little or no say in our affairs.
    • a yes vote will admit Turkey an Islamic country into Christian Europe, and further Expansion beyond Europe into North Africa and the Caucuses.
    • a yes vote will see abortion legalised, as European law will super-ceed Irish law.
    • a yes vote could see young Irish men & women conscripted into a federal European Army to fight in future wars that are not ours to fight.
    • a yes vote will designate the Irish Constitution to History as every thing will be dictated from Europe.
    • a yes vote is a vote of confidence in the current Fianna Fail government and a vote that says you are ok with higher taxes and less income and an uncertain future. If you don't understand it Vote No, and Vote No to punish the government because once it is rejected Brian Cowan will have to resign and the Government will collapse leading to a general election. Vote NO to this Government and Dictatorship from Brussels.

    However by all means be brainwashed and vote yes, however your children won't thank you for it.
    Please back up each of those bullet points with facts. Because as far as I can see there isnt a grain of truth in alot of it. Coincidentaly alot of people voted no for the very reasons you mentioned.

    For example one of the aims of the treaty is to make the EU less bloated and inefficient. Why do you say the opposite?

    Since when did europe consider itself christian? Made up of alot of christian countries sure but since when is that the same? Whats your problem with Islamics?

    Where in the treaty is abortion legalised?

    How does it remove our sovereignty?

    How will we be bullied be the French and Germans?

    Where does it even mention the formation of a European army never mind conscription?

    And finally how the hell does it have anything to do with Fianna Fail? And if as you say the government will fall after a no Vote which other pro-lisbon party will you be electing? Or do you want Sinn Fein to run the country (who were proven completly incompetent on financial issues in the debates before the last election, something we really dont need right now).


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    #736
    WooPeeA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭WooPeeA


    So let's start again...
    mumhaabu wrote: »
    I am voting No after reading the some of the treaty and I believe everybody here should Vote No to bury the treaty and the show them that Irish people will not be fooled by the lies of Europe.

    A yes vote represents a vote for several things,
    • It is a vote for socialism,and left wing Authoritarianism,
    The treaty says about "Social economy market", which with definition means a place where every citizen has a right to fundamental services, such as health care and few other things, unlike USA where you have to pay for everything, and unlike Scandinavian countries. Something between.
    • a vote for corruption, and bloated waste and bureaucracy of the EU,
    • a vote for removing our sovereignty.
    • a vote that says we can be bullied and trampled on by German and French Eurocrats.
    • a vote for a federal United States of Europe where Ireland will have little or no say in our affairs.
    Could you quote these articles? I haven't seen that in the Treaty.

    a yes vote will admit Turkey an Islamic country into Christian Europe, and further Expansion beyond Europe into North Africa and the Caucuses.
    There's no even "Turkey" word in the Treaty.. Oh damn, that's gonna be hard campaign..
    • a yes vote will see abortion legalised, as European law will super-ceed Irish law.
    There's nothing about abortion in the Lisbon Treaty. You're sure you've read that??
    • a yes vote could see young Irish men & women conscripted into a federal European Army to fight in future wars that are not ours to fight.
    And I thought you're serious debater...
    • a yes vote will designate the Irish Constitution to History as every thing will be dictated from Europe.
    • a yes vote is a vote of confidence in the current Fianna Fail government and a vote that says you are ok with higher taxes and less income and an uncertain future. If you don't understand it Vote No, and Vote No to punish the government because once it is rejected Brian Cowan will have to resign and the Government will collapse leading to a general election. Vote NO to this Government and Dictatorship from Brussels.
    :D


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    #737
    WooPeeA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭WooPeeA


    brianthebard wrote: »
    Lies were made on both sides of the debate, and no one was willing to call the other for fear of that being shown. People should listen to the debates but they need to make up their own minds about what people are arguing for or against.
    I don't remember much lies on YES side, however if there were any they should punish as well as NO side.

    It's not the government who's not honest with the people, it's the people who are dishonest to each other.


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    #738
    An Fear Aniar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,377 ✭✭✭An Fear Aniar


    Donald-Duck wrote: »
    You still do not understand, they just simply do not have referendums. On anything.

    Don't they now?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_European_Constitution_referendum

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005

    What other lies are you going to tell me?


    .


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    #739
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,053 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Why do some people think that FF is the only party supporting Lisbon?


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    #740
    An Fear Aniar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,377 ✭✭✭An Fear Aniar


    melekalikimaka wrote: »
    if you dont have anything constructive to add you really shouldnt post this waffle, i'm not even gonna ask where you got that information as i assume in was between a pair of legs

    So you're going to try and bully me as well, are you? Is that how you react when you don't agree with someone's point of view?

    This comment you've just made is the least constructive one in the whole thread.

    .


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    #741
    Terry
    Registered Users Posts: 26,061 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    An Fear Aniar wrote: »
    So you're going to try and bully me as well, are you? Is that how you react when you don't agree with someone's point of view?

    This comment you've just made is the least constructive one in the whole thread.

    .
    Oh, so it's just a point of view you have and not actual facts?

    You see what we want here are facts and not supposition or lies.


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    #742
    cooperguy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,650 ✭✭✭cooperguy


    An Fear Aniar wrote: »
    Don't they now?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_European_Constitution_referendum

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005

    What other lies are you going to tell me?


    .
    He's telling none. Each country has its own set of laws. Therefore it depends on what EU issue is at hand whether they have a referendum or not. There was a referendum on the EU constitution. I tried to find a page in Wiki on the Dutch, Danish and French, Lisbon referendum. Guess what I found none. Why dont you look up what is being discussed?


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    #743
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,053 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    mumhaabu wrote: »
    Considering Turkey has very bad Human rights abuses and its economy is totally incompatible with the rest of the EU. It would open an EU land border with Iraq and all it would lead to is a flood of millions and millions of economic migrants into Europe that is bad for Turkey and Europe. Plus Turkey has many fundamentalist muslims who would love nothing else than impose Sharia law over Europe and eradicate Christianity.

    I'm surprised that you didn't start a campaign to keep the Czechs out of the EU, almost 60% being atheists and all. Where were you when you were needed most? :eek:


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    #744
    Donald-Duck
    Registered Users Posts: 1,119 ✭✭✭Donald-Duck


    An Fear Aniar wrote: »
    Don't they now?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_European_Constitution_referendum

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005

    What other lies are you going to tell me?


    .

    Keyword "Most". Again, read posts correctly.


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    #745
    whatisayis
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭whatisayis


    cooperguy wrote: »
    He's telling none. Each country has its own set of laws. Therefore it depends on what EU issue is at hand whether they have a referendum or not. There was a referendum on the EU constitution. I tried to find a page in Wiki on the Dutch, Danish and French, Lisbon referendum. Guess what I found none. Why dont you look up what is being discussed?

    I have a sneaking suspicion that you might be well aware that the Lisbon Treaty came about as a result of the No vote on the EU constitution when it was put to the French and Dutch. Therefore, you will probably not find anything on Wiki on the French and Dutch Lisbon referendum. They were not allowed vote on it.


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    #746
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    I LOVE LAMP...

    Will I be able to keep my lamp if I vote yes??? :(


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    #747
    cooperguy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,650 ✭✭✭cooperguy


    whatisayis wrote: »
    I have a sneaking suspicion that you might be well aware that the Lisbon Treaty came about as a result of the No vote on the EU constitution when it was put to the French and Dutch. Therefore, you will probably not find anything on Wiki on the French and Dutch Lisbon referendum. They were not allowed vote on it.
    Because it is no longer an EU constitution by any chance? Just taking parts of it to make a more efficient working EU and therefore no need for a referendum? Stop trying to pretend its something it isnt.


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    #748
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,053 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    cooperguy wrote: »
    Because it is no longer an EU constitution by any chance? Just taking parts of it to make a more efficient working EU and therefore no need for a referendum? Stop trying to pretend its something it isnt.

    I'm more suspicious of new posters spouting on here than of any politician. I can't recall seeing a new poster in recent days who wasn't anti-Lisbon.


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    #749
    cooperguy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,650 ✭✭✭cooperguy


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    I'm more suspicious of new posters spouting on here than of any politician. I can't recall seeing a new poster in recent days who wasn't anti-Lisbon.
    I was actually thinking the same. Especially when there is no acknowledgement of any points made by the yes side that clearly debunk some of the arguments!


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    #750
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    WooPeeA wrote: »
    I don't remember much lies on YES side, however if there were any they should punish as well as NO side.

    It's not the government who's not honest with the people, it's the people who are dishonest to each other.

    It's much harder for the yes side to lie on this debate because as I understand it, the Lisbon Treaty is so opened ended, that nobody on the yes side or the no side could envisage exactly what problems might arise in the future for us, on the basis of the Lisbon Treaty being in force for EU decision making purposes.

    This is the main problem I have with the treaty and nobody has been able to answer this question for me and I've not been able to answer it for myself.

    As I understand it, and I could be a little shaky on this as I haven't kept track of the debate since June, where the EU has a competence, we will never be asked for an opinion by way of a referendum in Ireland again...

    Correct me if I'm wrong here, as I said, I could be on shaky ground here...


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    #751
    Riddle101
    Registered Users Posts: 8,406 ✭✭✭Riddle101


    I don't think i i'll vote this time, I reluctantly voted last time and all it got was 'ah we're doing it again' so no. This is a great time for me to start my Chaos Theory and start ruining this establishment in order to bring the world to into a state of Anarchy, Viva La Joker!!:D


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