Lisbon 2: prepare to bend over and recieve ur destiny!

ShooterSF

tedstriker wrote: »

Great, a nice point there. I think that discussion of everything is great but you obviously don't agree with that so fair enough. You have a right to vote no on that point but personally if I had your views then I would consider that the other impacts of the Lisbon treaty would further outweigh this one but each to there own.

Agreed. Sorry for being snappy I get the idea over and over that this treaty is all positive and everyone that voted no was an idiot and debating it at all gets you no where as people still claim no negatives have been pointed out. Sorry again.

I think the negatives outweigh the positives but I dont claim its an evil treaty.

As for the point of changes all I was saying is not one word, not even a comma of this treaty HAS changed.
You can claim that they don't need to reword it but personally I think there's a more cynical reason than that and that reason would be undemocratic in an ethical moral sense.
If its reworded there is a good chance the UK will then hold a referendum on the issue something that the EU shouldnt have a problem with but I get the feeling they do.
*Note: I dont have a problem with countries not "getting" a referendum. I do have a problem if the EU tries to circumvent a potential one because it could result in a No though.

AlmightyCushion

Nigsy wrote: »

They are probably re-registering, having been banned for stating their anti-EU opinions, see OscarBravo on the politics forum.

If you have a problem with the politics forum moderation take it to somewhere someone actually cares like the helpdesk. Not here though.

Nigsy

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

If you have a problem with the politics forum moderation take it to somewhere someone actually cares like the helpdesk. Not here though.

I'll state my opinions as and where I see fit.

ShooterSF

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

If you have a problem with the politics forum moderation take it to somewhere someone actually cares like the helpdesk. Not here though.

Agreed. I'd normally say nothing here but I dont think it's fair to bad mouth oscar. I must be a huge pain in his ass and yet Im still there.
Edit: Im not up to discuss this further here with anyone...

skelliser

tedstriker wrote: »

From what I am reading there is an element of the NO voters who are fearful of a repeat vote, now with added assurances, because the last time they argued issues that subsequently turned out to be utter rubbish. Issues about abortion, neutrality etc. If people really understood the treaty then these issues wouldn't exist.

Can someone give me one fact about the Lisbon treaty that will stop them voting in favour. Nothing to do with the government, nothing to do with job losses, nothing to do with how undemocratic it is to vote??. Someone give me something solid as to why they honestly believe that the Lisbon treaty as is will now be presented has more negatives than positives for Ireland and for Europe.

heres one!

article 6 states that for the treaty to come into effect it most be ratified by all countries before 1st of january 2009.
This cannot now happen and by there own admission they cannot re-open the treaty.

tolosenc

skelliser wrote: »

heres one!

article 6 states that for the treaty to come into effect it most be ratified by all countries before 1st of january 2009.
This cannot now happen and by there own admission they cannot re-open the treaty.

This Article 6?

Lisbon Treaty wrote:

"ARTICLE 6
1. The Union recognises the rights, freedoms and principles set out in the Charter of
Fundamental Rights of the European Union of 7 December 2000, as adapted at Strasbourg, on
12 December 2007, which shall have the same legal value as the Treaties.
The provisions of the Charter shall not extend in any way the competences of the Union as
defined in the Treaties.
The rights, freedoms and principles in the Charter shall be interpreted in accordance with the
general provisions in Title VII of the Charter governing its interpretation and application and
with due regard to the explanations referred to in the Charter, that set out the sources of those
provisions.
2. The Union shall accede to the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights
and Fundamental Freedoms. Such accession shall not affect the Union's competences as
defined in the Treaties.
3. Fundamental rights, as guaranteed by the European Convention for the Protection of
Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms and as they result from the constitutional traditions
common to the Member States, shall constitute general principles of the Union's law."

src: http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cmsUpload/cg00014.en07.pdf

skelliser

ya i know but according this:

In accordance with its Article 6, the Treaty will have to be ratified by the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements and will enter into force on 1 January 2009, provided that all instruments of ratification have been deposited, or, failing that, on the first day of the month following the deposit of the last instrument of ratification.

http://consilium.europa.eu/cms3_fo/showPage.asp?id=1296&lang=en

Nigsy

I see the Sunday Independent newspaper has another scam poll today.

What a shock, their own "independent" poll has found people to be in favour of a YES vote for Lisbon 2.

These people have some neck, they are nearly as laughable as the EU fat cats.

cooperguy

You reckon the Sunday Independant is in league with the Government?

This isnt the conspiracy theories forum.

ejmaztec

Nigsy wrote: »

I see the Sunday Independent newspaper has another scam poll today.

What a shock, their own "independent" poll has found people to be in favour of a YES vote for Lisbon 2.

These people have some neck, they are nearly as laughable as the EU fat cats.

Keep up the good work - the "Yes" vote is rising with every post. :P

tedstriker

Nigsy wrote: »

... EU fat cats.

What is an EU Fat Cat? Someone who has millions of Euro, a mansion and a helicopter to get around? Someone who tries to influence people in every country of the EU and not via legitimate methods.. a little brown envelope here and there and a nod and a wink. Is that what you think is at the heart of europe right now?

the-island-man

WooPeeA wrote: »

Really? What kind of sovereignty? Ireland kept all the borders, laws, constitution, army etc etc.. What does it mean to lose sovereignty?


Lisbon Treaty will give almost all power to elected by us Parliament.

"A sovereign power has absolute sovereignty if it has the unlimited right to control everything and every kind of activity in its territory!"-wikipedia
Has the irish goverment unlimited power to set its own fishing quotas or abolish fishing quotas?........nope
Has the irish goverment unlimited right to award contracts to whom ever it wants ?.....nope
has the irish goverment unlimited power to sell any of its semi-state owned bodies like aer lingus? .....not untill the E.U rule on whether or not its against E.U compettion law

so no i don't think we have complete sovereignty!

ejmaztec

the-island-man wrote: »

"A sovereign power has absolute sovereignty if it has the unlimited right to control everything and every kind of activity in its territory!"-wikipedia
Has the irish goverment unlimited power to set its own fishing quotas or abolish fishing quotas?........nope
Has the irish goverment unlimited right to award contracts to whom ever it wants ?.....nope
has the irish goverment unlimited power to sell any of its semi-state owned bodies like aer lingus? .....not untill the E.U rule on whether or not its against E.U compettion law

so no i don't think we have complete sovereignty!

Could Ireland survive outside the EU? Nope.

Valmont

If this gets shot down again, I'm emigrating.

Ckal

Valmont wrote: »

If this gets shot down again, I'm emigrating.

If this goes ahead, I'm emigrating.

OPENROAD

Valmont wrote: »

If this gets shot down again, I'm emigrating.

Of course you will

ben bedlam

Ckal wrote: »

If this goes ahead, I'm emigrating.

youll be a big loss

Ckal

ben bedlam wrote: »

youll be a big loss

And I'll miss you with all my heart.

ejmaztec

Either way, who wants a lift to the airport?

tolosenc

skelliser wrote: »

heres one!

article 6 states that for the treaty to come into effect it most be ratified by all countries before 1st of january 2009.
This cannot now happen and by there own admission they cannot re-open the treaty.

skelliser wrote: »

ya i know but according this:

In accordance with its Article 6, the Treaty will have to be ratified by the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements and will enter into force on 1 January 2009, provided that all instruments of ratification have been deposited, or, failing that, on the first day of the month following the deposit of the last instrument of ratification.

http://consilium.europa.eu/cms3_fo/showPage.asp?id=1296&lang=en

So, it doesn't have to be in by January 1st? That says it wont come in before 1/1/2009, but will come in to force on the 1st of the month after the final deposition with the Italians.

democrates

ejmaztec wrote: »

Could Ireland survive outside the EU? Nope.

I don't accept the "vote yes or leave" frame, it's scaremongering.

The EU is going in the wrong direction, it's a better EU we need, and Lisbon even with the IE service pack isn't it with more qmv for example.

the-island-man

ejmaztec wrote: »

Could Ireland survive outside the EU? Nope.

What was 1916 for so? Our ancestors obviously thought that we could survive outside the great superpower of that time that was Great Britain!
Look i don't want to give off a vibe that i am anti european but we are first and foremost irish citizens and we make our own luck! We need leaders with vision not someone who would tell us that "we must respect the people, the people have spoken" and then turn around and tell us we need to speak again! Maybe someone should tell Brian Cowen to get a hearing aid!:)

OPENROAD

the-island-man wrote: »

What was 1916 for so? Our ancestors obviously thought that we could survive outside the great superpower of that time that was Great Britain!

A very very different time and different world.

the-island-man

OPENROAD wrote: »

A very very different time and different world.

Yes i agree we wouldn't have to fight for our freedom this time, all we would have to do is opt out of the E.U!
I suppose to do that though we would have to vote out the current coalition of Fianna fail with a green tail that resembles sewerage more than a green party!

ejmaztec

the-island-man wrote: »

What was 1916 for so? Our ancestors obviously thought that we could survive outside the great superpower of that time that was Great Britain!
Look i don't want to give off a vibe that i am anti european but we are first and foremost irish citizens and we make our own luck! We need leaders with vision not someone who would tell us that "we must respect the people, the people have spoken" and then turn around and tell us we need to speak again! Maybe someone should tell Brian Cowen to get a hearing aid!:)

It's a great pity that most of the Irish had to make their luck by leaving the country.

Owing to the uncertainty resulting from the incompetent way our glorious leader handled the last referendum, a re-run is the sensible thing to do. As I've mentioned a number of times, the more power the EU has over Ireland, the less chance there is of the future being screwed up by the Dail's inability to run a piss-up in a brewery.

democrates

the-island-man wrote: »

Yes i agree we wouldn't have to fight for our freedom this time, all we would have to do is opt out of the E.U!
I suppose to do that though we would have to vote out the current coalition of Fianna fail with a green tail that resembles sewerage more than a green party!

Amen, we've seen the colour of the greens money with the budget. Seems staying in power to get green issues adopted takes precedence with all other considerations secondary, not the first time we've seen this from a niche agenda party.

OPENROAD

the-island-man wrote: »

Yes i agree we wouldn't have to fight for our freedom this time, all we would have to do is opt out of the E.U!

Wasn't thinking of it from that point of view at all.

democrates

ejmaztec wrote: »

Owing to the uncertainty resulting from the incompetent way our glorious leader handled the last referendum, a re-run is the sensible thing to do. As I've mentioned a number of times, the more power the EU has over Ireland, the less chance there is of the future being screwed up by the Dail's inability to run a piss-up in a brewery.

Or are you just making the problem bigger?

At least we can dump our national leaders at a general election, we've no such ability to hold the EU 27 to account.

Run_to_da_hills

Ckal wrote: »

If this goes ahead, I'm emigrating.

Emigrate to where? no matter where you go it will all be the same if this "New World Order" pact is signed.:P

andrew

I think Boards need a law, similar to Godwins law, only relating to 1916, our 'forefathers' or any other stuff related to Irish Independance. I think it should be called 'Andrew's Law' also :P