Lisbon 2: prepare to bend over and recieve ur destiny!

the-island-man

ejmaztec wrote: »

It's a great pity that most of the Irish had to make their luck by leaving the country.

Owing to the uncertainty resulting from the incompetent way our glorious leader handled the last referendum, a re-run is the sensible thing to do. As I've mentioned a number of times, the more power the EU has over Ireland, the less chance there is of the future being screwed up by the Dail's inability to run a piss-up in a brewery.

Sorry but in my opinion that is the most ridiculous suggestion regarding politics i've heard in a long time. If you think that our current represenatives are incompetent then in the next election you pay attention to the candidates running in your own constituency and pick the best one and if you don't like any of their policies you run yourself! And if your not bothered with either options then don't take part in the system why the f*** would you let people thousands of miles away completely rule you! If you don't like what the irish goverment are doing you can protest at dail eireann what are you goin to do if you don't like what the E.U are doing persuade thousands of people to pay whatever to fly to brussels to protest outside the E.U HQ or write a strongly worded letter!

ejmaztec

the-island-man wrote: »

Sorry but in my opinion that is the most ridiculous suggestion regarding politics i've heard in a long time. If you think that our current represenatives are incompetent then in the next election you pay attention to the candidates running in your own constituency and pick the best one and if you don't like any of their policies you run yourself! And if your not bothered with either options then don't take part in the system why the f*** would you let people thousands of miles away completely rule you! If you don't like what the irish goverment are doing you can protest at dail eireann what are you goin to do if you don't like what the E.U are doing persuade thousands of people to pay whatever to fly to brussels to protest outside the E.U HQ or write a strongly worded letter!

You're no fun at all. :P

the-island-man

democrates wrote: »

Amen, we've seen the colour of the greens money with the budget. Seems staying in power to get green issues adopted takes precedence with all other considerations secondary, not the first time we've seen this from a niche agenda party.

Well the most thing that annoys me is about the greens is that i thought when the greens came into power that at least our public transport will improve as a result! Public transport surely is one of the ways foward in tackling climate change and carbon emmissions! I live along the main Galway to Ballina route(well the most direct route anyway) and you can only get an express bus from Galway to Ballina after half five in the evening! How are people supposed to depend on public transport when it is as inflexible as it is! CIE and Iarnrod Eireann is yet another example of bloated semi-state bodies run by the workers and the unions for their own benefit!

the-island-man

ejmaztec wrote: »

You're no fun at all. :P

great reply:rolleyes:

IvySlayer

the-island-man wrote: »

Well the most thing that annoys me is about the greens is that i thought when the greens came into power that at least our public transport will improve as a result! Public transport surely is one of the ways foward in tackling climate change and carbon emmissions! I live along the main Galway to Ballina route(well the most direct route anyway) and you can only get an express bus from Galway to Ballina after half five in the evening! How are people supposed to depend on public transport when it is as inflexible as it is! CIE and Iarnrod Eireann is yet another example of bloated semi-state bodies run by the workers and the unions for their own benefit!

I hate unions. Seriously. The CEO/Board of management makes the rules (as long as its acceptable within Irish Law). But that's another debate.

The Greens solution is tax everything that produces carbon emissions, which is fine as long as the money is being used to research new technology.

the-island-man

IvySlayer wrote: »

I hate unions. Seriously. The CEO/Board of management makes the rules (as long as its acceptable within Irish Law). But that's another debate.

The Greens solution is tax everything that produces carbon emissions, which is fine as long as the money is being used to research new technology.

Yes unions are good for standing up for workers in some circumstances but they don't know when to stop putting the hand out to companies for pay rises!
I was astounded listening to the news during the last series of pay talks at the way the unions carried on! I mean i am not a business man in any shape or form but we knew the economy was weakening at the time and here was the unions aggresively fighting for pay rises! I don't think there was a person in the country who didn't think a pay freeze was the best way of retaining job security!
We really shouldn't be talking about this though, this thread is about the Lisbon treaty!!:cool:
Anyway i'm voting NO to it again and thinking of campaigning with the No side this time around!:D

ejmaztec

the-island-man wrote: »

great reply:rolleyes:

One has to think outside the box, which is difficult for some.

whatisayis

The reason why I would guess the No vote will actually be stronger in the second round is that the Irish electorate are not willing to put into place anything that can possibly restrict their right to voice their opinions by the voting process. The very fact that the first vote has been discredited will serve as an added conviction that this will happen if Lisbon is voted in. The two quotes below seem to articulate this sentiment.

Gisela Stuart MP (who was on the drafting committee for the EU Constitution - later changed to the Lisbon Treaty after the rejection by France and Holland).
(quoted from Giselastuart.com)
"The referendum result is not a problem for the Irish: it’s a problem for the whole of Europe, because it reflects a deeper malaise. The project of Europe’s political elite - deeper political integration – can no longer rely on implicit consent, let alone a popular mandate. This elite is incapable of comprehending the meaning of the word “no”, simply arguing in a high handed and arrogant way that the people didn’t understand, shouldn’t have been asked in the first place or were voting on something else other than the Treaty."

MEP Patricia McKenna summed it up after the results of the 1st vote were released:
(Quoted from The Irish Times 13/06/08)
"There is a huge demand for referendums for this in other EU countries. There's a major disconnect between the political parties and the electorate on this. People did not want their power as citizens to be handed over to a political elite in Brussels."

Until the government realises that many of No votes were not in fact swayed by listening to the various No campaigners but actually made their own minds up, they are on their way to another defeat. The result of the first poll was No -53.4% Yes - 46.6% Judging by the poll on this site (currently No -54.85% Yes - 39.13%) they have lost some of the yes support already.

Terry

Nigsy wrote: »

I'll state my opinions as and where I see fit.

Not here, you don't.

Post in this thread again and I will ban you.

ejmaztec

whatisayis wrote: »

The reason why I would guess the No vote will actually be stronger in the second round is that the Irish electorate are not willing to put into place anything that can possibly restrict their right to voice their opinions by the voting process. The very fact that the first vote has been discredited will serve as an added conviction that this will happen if Lisbon is voted in. The two quotes below seem to articulate this sentiment.

Gisela Stuart MP (who was on the drafting committee for the EU Constitution - later changed to the Lisbon Treaty after the rejection by France and Holland).
(quoted from Giselastuart.com)
"The referendum result is not a problem for the Irish: it’s a problem for the whole of Europe, because it reflects a deeper malaise. The project of Europe’s political elite - deeper political integration – can no longer rely on implicit consent, let alone a popular mandate. This elite is incapable of comprehending the meaning of the word “no”, simply arguing in a high handed and arrogant way that the people didn’t understand, shouldn’t have been asked in the first place or were voting on something else other than the Treaty."

MEP Patricia McKenna summed it up after the results of the 1st vote were released:
(Quoted from The Irish Times 13/06/08)
"There is a huge demand for referendums for this in other EU countries. There's a major disconnect between the political parties and the electorate on this. People did not want their power as citizens to be handed over to a political elite in Brussels."

Until the government realises that many of No votes were not in fact swayed by listening to the various No campaigners but actually made their own minds up, they are on their way to another defeat. The result of the first poll was No -53.4% Yes - 46.6% Judging by the poll on this site (currently No -54.85% Yes - 39.13%) they have lost some of the yes support already.

Can you let me have next Wednesday's Lotto numbers as well please?

Cow Moolester

the-island-man wrote: »

Yes i agree we wouldn't have to fight for our freedom this time, all we would have to do is opt out of the E.U!
I suppose to do that though we would have to vote out the current coalition of Fianna fail with a green tail that resembles sewerage more than a green party!

We can't even opt out of the EU until we pass the Lisbon Treaty. Currently there's no process where a country can leave the EU. This has been addressed in the Lisbon Treaty though

whatisayis

ejmaztec wrote: »

Can you let me have next Wednesday's Lotto numbers as well please?

5 7 8 and 3 8 5

dresden8

Valmont wrote: »

If this gets shot down again, I'm emigrating.

Don't let the door hit your arse on your way out.

nomorebadtown

we owe it to our EU neighbours, the concept of democracy and to ourselves to vote no again

tolosenc

Why?

m83

in before the lock

WooPeeA

nomorebadtown wrote: »

we owe it to our EU neighbours, the concept of democracy and to ourselves to vote no again

The Lisbon will provide a democracy to EU. Finally every man will have an impact on politics of the Union by voting for their representatives who will hold real power in their hands.

Looking at unelected elite and doing nothing as we have to do today will become a relic of the past.

PrivateEye

The Lisbon will provide a democracy to EU

Then have the second vote in France :pac:

The legislative process of the EU is an extremely complex and opaque system, making it very difficult to identify how many people are actually involved in formulating, implementing and overseeing legislation. However, research by Open Europe, using limited available information, shows that just to draft and work out how to implement legislation the EU requires a bureaucratic staff of around 62,026 people.
This figure reveals where the EU's real legislative work is actually done: in committees, behind closed doors and out of the public eye. Most of the work takes place away from the core institutions within Expert Groups, Council Groups, and what are known as Comitology committees.

-open europe.

sdanseo

Terry wrote: »

It's not the same treaty.

The parts most people objected to the last time have been changed.

How do people not get that?

I never implied otherwise tbh.

Cow Moolester

WooPeeA wrote: »

The Lisbon will provide a democracy to EU. Finally every man will have an impact on politics of the Union by voting for their representatives who will hold real power in their hands.

Looking at unelected elite and doing nothing as we have to do today will become a relic of the past.

Yes I see...democracy...

That's why the French people were refuses a vote on Lisbon..I see...

And yes I'm sure every man* will have an impact on Politics...

*Man=French or German man. With the new voting scheme in Lisbon Treaty, they will hold the biggest votes in the EU.

If a decision is being made or a law passed which will effect Ireland, should we not have the same amount of say as any other country on something which will effect us?

Of course if I'm wrong, please steer me right

thelordofcheese

PrivateEye wrote: »

he legislative process of the EU is an extremely complex and opaque system, making it very difficult to identify how many people are actually involved in formulating, implementing and overseeing legislation. However, research by Open Europe, using limited available information, shows that just to draft and work out how to implement legislation the EU requires a bureaucratic staff of around 62,026 people.
This figure reveals where the EU's real legislative work is actually done: in committees, behind closed doors and out of the public eye. Most of the work takes place away from the core institutions within Expert Groups, Council Groups, and what are known as Comitology committees.

-open europe.

What are you getting at? That the drafting of legislation isn't done in public?
And? Therefore? So?
Drafting of proposals is never done in public anywhere. When was the last time you saw or read about a proposal in ireland before it was unveiled to the Dail?
If the laws were drafted, debated and voted on in secret THEN you'd have an issue. But it isn't, infact the Lisbon treaty makes the process more transparant by making it so that Legislative meetings of the European Council now have to take place in public.

This is a non issue and you know it.

tolosenc

PrivateEye wrote: »

Then have the second vote in France

Cow Moolester wrote: »

That's why the French people were refuses a vote on Lisbon..I see...

Part of Nicolas Sarkozy's election manifesto was that he would ratify the Lisbon treaty without a referendum. By voting him in, they agreed to passing the Treaty.

And they were not refused a vote, there was not a demand for a vote to be refused! When you read people from other countries saying "thank you" and what not, you are reading the views of the radical fringe, the Vaclav Klauses(who may face impeachment in the new year! woohoo) of this world. The ordinary man in the street all around the EU was happy with the the treaty. If there was such a concern among their citizens, the governments of the other 26 states would have had to listen. But there wasn't. The only stats that suggest otherwise seem to have been published by the political wing of a terrorist organisation, an illegally funded pressure group headed by the CEO of a multinat with its own agenda who himself gave Liam Lawlor a brown envelope stuffed with 30k in 1996, and a bunch of religious nut-jobs. The mandated public representatives had no such findings. And I should also point out that 4 countries passed the draft constitution by referendum. France barely rejected it, largely based on civil unrest there at the time, and the French rejection had a huge sway in the Netherlands, who were also infested by Libertas style scaremongering loonies.

The Lisbon Treaty is about removing beaurocracy and inefficiency. Wait a minute. I've just solved it. Irish people don't like this treaty because it encourages efficiency about as much as CIE discourages it...

Sam Vimes

Terry wrote:

It's not the same treaty.

The parts most people objected to the last time have been changed.

How do people not get that?

i don't know what parts have been changed if any but i wouldn't have a problem with a second referendum even if it was the same treaty because the parts most people objected to were never in the feckin thing in the first place

whatisayis

obl wrote: »

Part of Nicolas Sarkozy's election manifesto was that he would ratify the Lisbon treaty without a referendum. By voting him in, they agreed to passing the Treaty.

And they were not refused a vote, there was not a demand for a vote to be refused! When you read people from other countries saying "thank you" and what not, you are reading the views of the radical fringe, the Vaclav Klauses(who may face impeachment in the new year! woohoo) of this world. The ordinary man in the street all around the EU was happy with the the treaty. If there was such a concern among their citizens, the governments of the other 26 states would have had to listen. But there wasn't. The only stats that suggest otherwise seem to have been published by the political wing of a terrorist organisation, an illegally funded pressure group headed by the CEO of a multinat with its own agenda who himself gave Liam Lawlor a brown envelope stuffed with 30k in 1996, and a bunch of religious nut-jobs. The mandated public representatives had no such findings. And I should also point out that 4 countries passed the draft constitution by referendum. France barely rejected it, largely based on civil unrest there at the time, and the French rejection had a huge sway in the Netherlands, who were also infested by Libertas style scaremongering loonies.

The Lisbon Treaty is about removing beaurocracy and inefficiency. Wait a minute.I've just solved it. Irish people don't like this treaty because it encourages efficiency about as much as CIE discourages it...

To clarify some points made:

The French were not given the opportunity to vote, when they rejected the EU constitution it was reworded and became a treaty that did not require a referendum.

When asked during a poll by the Financial Times in October 2007 whether they would prefer a to have a referendum on Lisbon 75% in the UK, 63% in France, 72% in Italy, 65% in Spain and 76% in Germany said Yes. Quite a large radical fringe.

Of those 4, Bulgaria and Romania were required to pass it under the Treaty of Accession Act 2005 allowing entry into the EU.

The EU administration cost alone for 2007 was 6.7 billion. The European Court of Auditors have not been able to sign off on the EU accounts for 14 years basically saying they cannot confirm that eu funds have been correctly allocated.

Sam Vimes

whatisayis wrote: »

Of those 4, Bulgaria and Romania were required to pass it under the Treaty of Accession Act 2005 allowing entry into the EU.

having a referendum on it and being required to pass it in order to get into the eu can't both be true can they

whatisayis

Sam Vimes wrote: »

having a referendum on it and being required to pass it in order to get into the eu can't both be true can they

I'm not quite sure what you are asking. In order to gain entry to the EU Romania and Bulgaria signed the Accession Treaty. Article 1, paragraph 2 of the Treaty required the acceptance of the Lisbon Treaty as a condition of entry.

thelordofcheese

whatisayis wrote: »

The EU administration cost alone for 2007 was 6.7 billion. The European Court of Auditors have not been able to sign off on the EU accounts for 14 years basically saying they cannot confirm that eu funds have been correctly allocated.

This keeps comming up. To the best of my knowledge the EU audits it's books twice, one is a standard audit (financial audit) which it passes.

The second audit standards are that no mismanagment can occur anywhere (sound financial management audit). This is, of course, impossible. Mistakes happen and because the EU hands money to governments of countries for them to hand out, open for exploitation. It's a very high bar that they've set themselves and frankly, i don't think they'll ever pass the second one. Mainly because there's always some little shit looking to skim off the top.

People make a big deal of this when it's not. I blame poor journalism.

skelliser

terry wrote:

It's not the same treaty.

can you stop saying this, nothing in the treaty has changed!!
its the exact same treaty

thebman

whatisayis wrote: »

I'm not quite sure what you are asking. In order to gain entry to the EU Romania and Bulgaria signed the Accession Treaty. Article 1, paragraph 2 of the Treaty required the acceptance of the Lisbon Treaty as a condition of entry.

Which is fine really since if they don't agree that Lisbon is the way forward then what is the point of them joining the EU when the vast majority of member states think it is the way forward.

They weren't actually expecting us to vote no to it when those conditions were drawn up I imagine.

Sam Vimes

whatisayis wrote: »

I'm not quite sure what you are asking. In order to gain entry to the EU Romania and Bulgaria signed the Accession Treaty. Article 1, paragraph 2 of the Treaty required the acceptance of the Lisbon Treaty as a condition of entry.

obl said that 4 countries passed the draft constitution by referendum. then you said the 2 of the 4 were required to accept it to get into the EU. i don't see how both of those statements can be true. unless obl means that they had a referendum on getting into the EU and part of that referendum included the draft constitution?