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Lisbon 2: prepare to bend over and recieve ur destiny!

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    #962
    thelordofcheese
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭thelordofcheese


    ven0m wrote: »
    It is not about whinging. If there's anyone who was whinging it was Sarkozy & his cronies. If it wasn't for British, Irish & American servicemen & women, he'd be saluting a German flag every morning before Bratwurst.

    Way to stay classy, venom.

    And frankly voting is a right, but that right also carries responsibilities. The responsibility to use your vote wisely by being informed on the subject you're voting on.

    Too many people seem to think democracy and the will of the people is some kind of sacred cow and it should never be questioned. Fuck that noise.
    Democracy is flawed, it's just the least flawed system we have. The biggest problem is the fact that people are notoriously fickle and ignorant. At the risk of invoking a certain internet law, some of the greatest monsters we've ever known were elected democratically. The system is not perfect and we should stop pretending it is.

    If we condone voting without knowing what you're voting on, we're essentially encouraging the worst aspects of democracy. People shouldn't be congratulated for going to the polls with no idea of what their voting on and then just picking Yes or No based on what slogans they feel most strongly about.
    We cannot stop people from voting that would be worse, but we could at least stop applauding them for doing it in ignorance.


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    #963
    passive
    Registered Users Posts: 2,403 ✭✭✭passive


    Otacon wrote: »
    ...so there are no reasons to vote 'Yes@? OK, I will vote 'No' then.

    I actually put a rather large list of reasons to vote yes in my other post. But way to be a childish c*nt ;).


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    #964
    ben bedlam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 261 ✭✭ben bedlam


    thelordofcheese wrote: »
    Way to stay classy, venom.

    And frankly voting is a right, but that right also carries responsibilities. The responsibility to use your vote wisely by being informed on the subject you're voting on.

    Too many people seem to think democracy and the will of the people is some kind of sacred cow and it should never be questioned. Fuck that noise.
    Democracy is flawed, it's just the least flawed system we have. The biggest problem is the fact that people are notoriously fickle and ignorant. At the risk of invoking a certain internet law, some of the greatest monsters we've ever known were elected democratically. The system is not perfect and we should stop pretending it is.

    If we condone voting without knowing what you're voting on, we're essentially encouraging the worst aspects of democracy. People shouldn't be congratulated for going to the polls with no idea of what their voting on and then just picking Yes or No based on what slogans they feel most strongly about.
    We cannot stop people from voting that would be worse, but we could at least stop applauding them for doing it in ignorance.


    Wow, great point there, that people deserve their vote as long as they are educated 'yes' voters. What a pompous and hypocritical point. You know as well as I do, that as many people would have voted yes last time out of 'ignorance' as many of those who voted no.


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    #965
    passive
    Registered Users Posts: 2,403 ✭✭✭passive


    ben bedlam wrote: »
    Wow, great point there, that people deserve their vote as long as they are educated 'yes' voters.

    That's exactly his point, if you take out the word "yes"

    the context of his post is responding to people saying people should vote for "whatever reason they feel like" or "no reason at all"

    If you oppose the treaty, and do so for actual reasons and oppose its content; good for you. Do so, let's argue and see who wins. Stop defending people who vote blindly or stupidly, as you're seriously undermining your cause by acknowledging that you rely on this to win.


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    #966
    thelordofcheese
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭thelordofcheese


    ben bedlam wrote: »
    Wow, great point there, that people deserve their vote as long as they are educated 'yes' voters. What a pompous and hypocritical point. You know as well as I do, that as many people would have voted yes last time out of 'ignorance' as many of those who voted no.

    I think, if you actually bother to read what i wrote, you'll see i'm giving out about voter ignorance in general.


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    #967
    ben bedlam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 261 ✭✭ben bedlam


    passive wrote: »
    That's exactly his point, if you take out the word "yes"

    the context of his post is responding to people saying people should vote for "whatever reason they feel like" or "no reason at all"

    If you oppose the treaty, and do so for actual reasons and oppose its content; good for you. Do so, let's argue and see who wins. Stop defending people who vote blindly or stupidly, as you're seriously undermining your cause by acknowledging that you rely on this to win.

    Is it ok by you to educate yourself on the Lisbon Treaty, and reach the conclusion that you want to vote no?


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    #968
    dr.bollocko
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,943 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    passive wrote: »
    I actually put a rather large list of reasons to vote yes in my other post. But way to be a childish c*nt ;).

    BANNED.


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    #969
    Terry
    Registered Users Posts: 26,061 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    passive wrote: »
    I actually put a rather large list of reasons to vote yes in my other post. But way to be a childish c*nt ;).
    Banned.


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    #970
    Otacon
    Registered Users Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Otacon


    passive wrote: »
    I actually put a rather large list of reasons to vote yes in my other post. But way to be a childish c*nt ;).

    I try.

    What were the reasons again? Bullet-points preferable.

    I honestly couldn't make out any positive points from your posts. You seem to say its not important enough to vote against as it is a minimal change, yet you must vote for it as it is necessary.


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    #971
    thelordofcheese
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭thelordofcheese


    ben bedlam wrote: »
    Is it ok by you to educate yourself on the Lisbon Treaty, and reach the conclusion that you want to vote no?

    Why wouldn't it be?


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    #972
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    brim4brim wrote: »
    Hang on, didn't Labour promise the people a vote on the Constitution and not the Lisbon Treaty?

    That is why they weren't given a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty because it isn't the Constitution.

    Quoting myself to add link:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7052180.stm

    The whole thing is people saying that Lisbon is so like the Constitution they should have been allowed vote but they promised a vote on the Constitution and not the Lisbon treaty so they didn't do anything wrong. Since the French and Dutch rejected the referendum they didn't need to have a referendum on it since it had already been rejected.

    There are differences between Lisbon and the Constitution.


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    #973
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Otacon wrote: »
    ...so there are no reasons to vote 'Yes@? OK, I will vote 'No' then.
    what just to be contrary like?


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    #974
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    ben bedlam wrote: »
    Wow, great point there, that people deserve their vote as long as they are educated 'yes' voters. What a pompous and hypocritical point. You know as well as I do, that as many people would have voted yes last time out of 'ignorance' as many of those who voted no.

    He didn't say an educated yes voter, he said an educated voter. You can't honestly believe that voting when you don't know what you're voting on is a good thing?


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    #975
    Otacon
    Registered Users Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Otacon


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    what just to be contrary like?

    A vote of 'No' keeps things as they are now yes? And a vote of 'Yes' changes things but I haven't heard exactly what will be changed, good or bad.

    Just wanted to know, is there a reason to vote 'Yes' besides its a small change and doesn't need a reason (even though its a necessary change?)?


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    #976
    boring_job_guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 89 ✭✭boring_job_guy


    every single voter, yes and no, voted in ignorance.

    tell me who is the greater fool?


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    #977
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    ben bedlam wrote: »
    Is it ok by you to educate yourself on the Lisbon Treaty, and reach the conclusion that you want to vote no?
    absolutely. If you know what the treaty is about and actually object to something in it then by all means vote no. What he's against is the pride people seem to be taking in ignorance, as if assuming it's bad because you saw a poster saying so and not find out for yourself is something to be proud of. It's making us out to be the uneducated idiots on the fringes saying no to everything without bothering to find out what we're voting no to


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    #978
    ben bedlam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 261 ✭✭ben bedlam


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    He didn't say an educated yes voter, he said an educated voter. You can't honestly believe that voting when you don't know what you're voting on is a good thing?


    The referendum on the Lisbon Treaty asked voters to do one of two things:

    1: vote yes, thereby chossing to accept and ratify the treaty.
    2: vote no, thereby choosing not to accept and ratify the treaty.

    Ireland was asked to approve or effectivly agree to a contract with Lisbon. Of course people voted no because they were unsure of the treaty's contents. No one in their right mind would sign a legal contract without understanding it fully, and Ireland rightly rejected Lisbon.

    Everyone is entitled to vote.If you dont know, vote no.


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    #979
    niceirishfella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,538 ✭✭✭niceirishfella


    thelordofcheese wrote: »
    If you've got a problem, either report my posts or say something, quit sniveling in the background.

    I'll say what i like here. You are not a mod.:P


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    #980
    niceirishfella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,538 ✭✭✭niceirishfella


    thelordofcheese wrote: »
    And frankly voting is a right, but that right also carries responsibilities. The responsibility to use your vote wisely by being informed on the subject you're voting on.Too many people seem to think democracy and the will of the people is some kind of sacred cow and it should never be questioned. Fuck that noise. Democracy is flawed, it's just the least flawed system we have. The biggest problem is the fact that people are notoriously fickle and ignorant. At the risk of invoking a certain internet law, some of the greatest monsters we've ever known were elected democratically. The system is not perfect and we should stop pretending it is.If we condone voting without knowing what you're voting on, we're essentially encouraging the worst aspects of democracy. People shouldn't be congratulated for going to the polls with no idea of what their voting on and then just picking Yes or No based on what slogans they feel most strongly about.
    We cannot stop people from voting that would be worse, but we could at least stop applauding them for doing it in ignorance.


    LOC, do you have the right to vote here seeing that you are based in the UK and have soooooooooooo much opinion on Irish Democracy?


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    #981
    thelordofcheese
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭thelordofcheese


    niceirishfella wrote: »
    LOC, do you have the right to vote here seeing that you are based in the UK and have soooooooooooo much opinion on Irish Democracy?

    Not this shit again.
    I'm now changing my location to read "on the moon"
    maybe that will stop you asking such shitty questions.


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    #982
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    ben bedlam wrote: »
    The referendum on the Lisbon Treaty asked voters to do one of two things:

    1: vote yes, thereby chossing to accept and ratify the treaty.
    2: vote no, thereby choosing not to accept and ratify the treaty.

    Ireland was asked to approve or effectivly agree to a contract with Lisbon. Of course people voted no because they were unsure of the treaty's contents. No one in their right mind would sign a legal contract without understanding it fully, and Ireland rightly rejected Lisbon.

    If you dont know, vote no.

    If you don't know, find out. Ignorance is not a good thing ffs and should not be paraded around as the way to make your political choices

    And the eu did not just continue as it was. A lot has changed you might notice, mostly that we've lost a lot of influence because we look like the nay sayers.

    Do you think they spent 5 years and millions drafting this thing up for the craic? Do you not think that maybe they spent that money for a reason, that the eu isn't running ok and needs this change?

    And most importantly do you not think the least you could do is get off your hole and find out what it's about instead of proudly saying no because you weren't bothered?

    Your bone idleness affected hundreds of millions of people remember


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    #983
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    at least if we actually had a valid reason to have voted no we might have saved some face but as that report showed and you state, we voted no because we're lazy and ignorant and proud of it


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    #984
    democrates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,046 ✭✭✭democrates


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    absolutely. If you know what the treaty is about and actually object to something in it then by all means vote no. What he's against is the pride people seem to be taking in ignorance, as if assuming it's bad because you saw a poster saying so and not find out for yourself is something to be proud of. It's making us out to be the uneducated idiots on the fringes saying no to everything without bothering to find out what we're voting no to
    I agree to an extent, you can see the logic of people who say "you want a change, convince me whether it will make things better rather than worse".

    Then again, the vote is not just on the text of the lisbon treaty, there are implications to a no vote as well as to a yes vote, I'm still in the no camp, but it would be disingenuous of me to pretend that a no vote guarantees the status quo, not just because Nice changes will kick in but it could be gang up on Ireland time, what I'd want to see in the event of No2 is a serious review of the EU's strategic direction and a recognition that it badly needs democratic legitimacy. I don't think we should so easily give up on the prospect of a better EU.


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    #985
    WooPeeA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭WooPeeA


    Otacon wrote: »
    A vote of 'No' keeps things as they are now yes? And a vote of 'Yes' changes things but I haven't heard exactly what will be changed, good or bad.
    If you don't know is it good or bad choice for Ireland and Europe, why bother voting?


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    #986
    Fuascailt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 268 ✭✭Fuascailt


    ben bedlam wrote: »
    If you dont know, vote no.

    If you don't know, don't vote. Why would you turn down a contract because you didn't understand it?


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    #987
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    democrates wrote: »
    I agree to an extent, you can see the logic of people who say "you want a change, convince me whether it will make things better rather than worse".

    Then again, the vote is not just on the text of the lisbon treaty, there are implications to a no vote as well as to a yes vote, I'm still in the no camp, but it would be disingenuous of me to pretend that a no vote guarantees the status quo, not just because Nice changes will kick in but it could be gang up on Ireland time, what I'd want to see in the event of No2 is a serious review of the EU's strategic direction and a recognition that it badly needs democratic legitimacy. I don't think we should so easily give up on the prospect of a better EU.

    I see what you're but you're essentially using the lisbon treaty as your platform for your problems with how the eu is. You're voting no in the hope that it'll cause a change but that's very unlikely to happen because that's not what the treaty is about.

    What you need to do is get a group together who share your concerns, and they are legitimate concerns, and call your local td. Try to get your concerns heard and bring it all the way to europe and maybe we'll have a new referendum. But by voting no to lisbon for that reason you're fighting the wrong battle


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    #988
    WooPeeA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭WooPeeA


    ben bedlam wrote: »
    The referendum on the Lisbon Treaty asked voters to do one of two things:

    1: vote yes, thereby chossing to accept and ratify the treaty.
    2: vote no, thereby choosing not to accept and ratify the treaty.
    No "I still don't know why am I doing here" option?

    Hmm.. that explains a lot. :rolleyes:


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    #989
    niceirishfella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,538 ✭✭✭niceirishfella


    thelordofcheese wrote: »
    Not this shit again.
    I'm now changing my location to read "on the moon"
    maybe that will stop you asking such shitty questions.

    Clearly embarrased by this fair question. Shame - you have an opinion on all things LOC, and no lead in your electoral voting pencil.:D ohhhhhhhhhh, and you location is relevant to this discussion. Your just another "Sarkozy" wannabe interfering with opinion on the Irish democratic System. You are of no relevance.


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    #990
    Mrmoe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,213 ✭✭✭Mrmoe


    Does anyone know of any poll that gives a percentage of yes voters that voted despite being ignorant on the treaty?


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    #991
    thelordofcheese
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭thelordofcheese


    niceirishfella wrote: »
    Clearly embarrased by this fair question. Shame - you have an opinion on all things LOC, and no lead in your electoral voting pencil.:D ohhhhhhhhhh, and you location is relevant to this discussion. Your just another "Sarkozy" wannabe interfering with opinion on the Irish democratic System. You are of no relevance.

    And you're an irritating child with a fixation on something irrelivant.
    Frankly, you're pathetic. You are probably the most infantile poster i've come across in some time.

    You have nothing of interest to say, you are totally incapable of giving a single point of any worth, because you're too busy doing the tortuous mental gymnastics needed to peddle this "OHH YOU'RE NOT IRISH" bullshit. Which, of course, saves you the nasty bother of thinking.


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