Lisbon 2: prepare to bend over and recieve ur destiny!

Otacon

WooPeeA wrote: »

If you don't know is it good or bad choice for Ireland and Europe, why bother voting?

Fuascailt wrote: »

If you don't know, don't vote. Why would you turn down a contract because you didn't understand it?

I wished to exercise my right to vote. The issue that the Government wanted me to vote on was whether or not to ratify the Lisbon Treaty.

I read as much as I could find and understand, boards.ie included, especially the posts of Scofflaw on EU Politics as he seemed to know a lot about it. Yet at no stage, did I read anything that suggested to me there was an upside to voting 'Yes'. I still haven't.

Anyway, I did'n't vote as I was out of the country.

Sam Vimes

Mrmoe wrote: »

Does anyone know of any poll that gives a percentage of yes voters that voted despite being ignorant on the treaty?

i'm sure there were loads including my dad and i told him he was voting for stupid reasons.

but tbh i don't think they're as bad as ignorant no voters. if i was going to make a decision based on what other people told me and not check for myself, i'd go with pretty much every major political party in europe rather than sinn fein and libertas (whoever the fcuk they are)

but voting yes out of ignorance is not right either. the responsible course of action when you have no idea what the vote is about is to stay out of everyone else's way and not vote

Sam Vimes

Otacon wrote: »

Yet at no stage, did I read anything that suggested to me there was an upside to voting 'Yes'. I still haven't.

but did you find an overwhelming reason to vote no that was actually true? tbh one of the deciding factors for me was that every single bad thing i heard about the treaty turned out to be a lie. i wondered why, if this treaty is so bad for us, do they feel the need to tell us a pack of lies? literally every single bad thing was a lie. they couldn't come up with one actual reason???

Mrmoe

Sam Vimes wrote: »

i'm sure there were loads including my dad and i told him he was voting for stupid reasons.

but tbh i don't think they're as bad as ignorant no voters. if i was going to make a decision based on what other people told me and not check for myself, i'd go with pretty much every major political party in europe rather than sinn fein and libertas (whoever the fcuk they are)

but voting yes out of ignorance is not right either. the responsible course of action when you have no idea what the vote is about is to stay out of everyone else's way and not vote

I agree in principle that voting out of ignorance is not good. However, how do you know if someone who says that they are knowledgeable on the treaty actually are? They could believe something to be true after doing some research and talking to people but the decision that they come up with might not be the logical one. In my mind I think the whole process should be looked at carefully. We need a non biased source to provide both negative and positive arguments. As regards voting I think everybody should be made to vote but be given a third choice on the ballot such as abstaining. This way we will truly know the will of the people. If a majority of people vote say that they are abstaining then it would be logical to go back and have another vote not before explaining in more detail what the treaty is about. I can't blame anyone for holding another vote at the moment as there is no clear mandate from a yes no outcome. It would be much clearer if you had 3 choices. Is this a pipe dream or could such a thing actually happen?

dr.bollocko

thelordofcheese wrote: »

And you're an irritating child with a fixation on something irrelivant.
Frankly, you're pathetic. You are probably the most infantile poster i've come across in some time.

You have nothing of interest to say, you are totally incapable of giving a single point of any worth, because you're too busy doing the tortuous mental gymnastics needed to peddle this "OHH YOU'RE NOT IRISH" bullshit. Which, of course, saves you the nasty bother of thinking.

Infracted.

McGrath5

I was out of the country for the first vote, I will be voting yes this time around i think

niceirishfella

thelordofcheese wrote: »

And you're an irritating child with a fixation on something irrelivant.
Frankly, you're pathetic. You are probably the most infantile poster i've come across in some time.

You have nothing of interest to say, you are totally incapable of giving a single point of any worth, because you're too busy doing the tortuous mental gymnastics needed to peddle this "OHH YOU'RE NOT IRISH" bullshit. Which, of course, saves you the nasty bother of thinking.

so wrong LOCheez, and you still have not answered the question? I don't know if you are english, dutch or french - and do you have a vote or not? All we know is that you are uk based with strong opinions, a temper and of little contribution especially when you fly off the handle? Please calm down and answer my question.

Ckal

It's interesting to see the argument sway from "No voters were too thick to understand the treaty" to "No voters voted out of spite to get back at the Government" to "No voters were fed a pack of lies and were misinformed about the treaty" to "No voters were ignorant morons" (-Not direct quotes)

The same could be said about some Yes voters. Some didn't know what the treaty was about. Some voted because they liked FF. Some voted because they wanted Abortion and Euthanasia legalized. Some voted because they hate Sinn Fein. And so on.

I don't know how many times it has to be said; Voters on both sides were misinformed and voted out of spite. If Lisbon was ratified by Ireland by misinformed, ignorant, and moronic Yes voters, would we be voting again? Would you be pleased that the fate of Europe was decided by said voters?

dr.bollocko

niceirishfella wrote: »

so wrong LOCheez, and you still have not answered the question? I don't know if you are english, dutch or french - and do you have a vote or not? All we know is that you are uk based with strong opinions, a temper and of little contribution especially when you fly off the handle? Please calm down and answer my question.

And you can quit goading. Stick to points and not personal attacks.

thelordofcheese

niceirishfella wrote: »

so wrong LOCheez, and you still have not answered the question? I don't know if you are english, dutch or french - and do you have a vote or not? All we know is that you are uk based with strong opinions, a temper and of little contribution especially when you fly off the handle? Please calm down and answer my question.

No.
It's none of your damn business.

If you hadn't been so obnoxious from the start i'd be happy to play ball, but frankly you can continue to ask this drivel all you want. I won't answer.

Go annoy someone else, kid.

Sam Vimes

Ckal wrote: »

It's interesting to see the argument sway from "No voters were too thick to understand the treaty" to "No voters voted out of spite to get back at the Government" to "No voters were fed a pack of lies and were misinformed about the treaty" to "No voters were ignorant morons" (-Not direct quotes)

The same could be said about some Yes voters. Some didn't know what the treaty was about. Some voted because they liked FF. Some voted because they wanted Abortion and Euthanasia legalized. Some voted because they hate Sinn Fein. And so on.

I don't know how many times it has to be said; Voters on both sides were misinformed and voted out of spite. If Lisbon was ratified by Ireland by misinformed, ignorant, and moronic Yes voters, would we be voting again? Would you be pleased that the fate of Europe was decided by said voters?

yes people on both sides were misinformed but it seems that only the no side value their ignorance and try to convince people that they should also vote out of ignorance

Dob74

Sam Vimes wrote: »

at least if we actually had a valid reason to have voted no we might have saved some face but as that report showed and you state, we voted no because we're lazy and ignorant and proud of it

I disagree. I voted NO because article 2 promotes the freedom of movement of labour. This is a fairly good idea if workers rights are up held. But this is not the case in this country and judging by the european court's ruling on the case in Sweden, the EU wish to undermine trade rates. Say no more about the GAMA case. This will turn the EU into the USSR. The bosses will be able to draft workers in from anywhere they feel fit. Including outside the EU. To under cut workers wages and the European Council, Courts and Parliment willl back them up.
The government poll showed the over 50's and students voted yes. The productive age of the country voted no. The number one reason I voted NO was of the free movement of labour. I don't think by next october all the problems will be gone. Independant Newspapers can run there line that the Polish are leaving but the numbers don't lie. 25.2k less irish working this year. The same number of non-irish at work. Don't get me started on the ECB!!!!!!!!!!!!

ben bedlam

Sam Vimes wrote: »

If you don't know, find out. Ignorance is not a good thing ffs and should not be paraded around as the way to make your political choices

And the eu did not just continue as it was. A lot has changed you might notice, mostly that we've lost a lot of influence because we look like the nay sayers.

To say that Ireland has lost alot of its influence in Europe is a completely tripe, generic argument put forward by the yes side. Explain to me in just one way we have "lost a lot of influence".

Jimpsta

humanji wrote: »

Ok people, I know this is going to fall on deaf ears, but 28% of the population voted no. And a portion of that admitted to not voting on what was actually in the treaty. How is following the will of an ill-informed minority democratic? Think about it. If nobody except for 2 people actually managed to vote last time, and they voted yes because they thought it was about ice-cream, would you honestly want to honour that vote?

Why not actually read the treaty (it's honestly not that hard, I managed it FFS, and I'm thick as pig shìt!) and deciding what's best for you? What's the worst that can happen? Sure if the treaty is really that bad for everyone, it'll be a no vote again. One day out of your life isn't going to make that much of a difference.

Once again you are back in a topic talking complete utter mis-leading bull! imo

I watch the posts you respond to and how you do it... Peculiar to say the least... Who do you work for really? The EU or have they given you some sort of bend over like Beckham juice to bid to their will...

Sam Vimes

Dob74 wrote: »

I disagree. I voted NO because article 2 promotes the freedom of movement of labour.

well i didn't say that every single person in the country voted no out of ignorance, i said we as a nation did, which is what that report found

Sam Vimes

ben bedlam wrote: »

To say that Ireland has lost alot of its influence in Europe is a completely tripe, generic argument put forward by the yes side. Explain to me in just one way we have "lost a lot of influence".

well one example would be that they just went ahead and told us to vote again

edit: and no other country's leader ever said that it might be time to discuss ireland's withdrawl from the eu before we voted no

WooPeeA

Dob74 wrote: »

The government poll showed the over 50's and students voted yes.

Using other words, country's intelligence.

ben bedlam

Sam Vimes wrote: »

well one example would be that they just went ahead and told us to vote again

edit: and no other country's leader ever said that it might be time to discuss ireland's withdrawl from the eu before we voted no

?

Toiletroll

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Everybody shut up and listen to this, because it's the most sensible thing that will be said in this thread.

You and Humanj have been coming on boards a lot posting complete and utter nonsense. Nobody should listen to anything that either you or humanj has to say on any topic imo due to it being compelte and utter B$

You both always come along and post on similar topics backing each other up (so sad), it looks like as the above poster said, you are being fed some Bend Over Like Beckam juice!

ben bedlam

Toiletroll wrote: »

You and Humanj have been coming on boards a lot posting complete and utter nonsense. Nobody should listen to anything that either you or humanj has to say on any topic imo due to it being compelte and utter B$

You both always come along and post on similar topics backing each other up (so sad), it looks like as the above poster said, you are being fed some Bend Over Like Beckam juice!

+1

democrates

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I see what you're but you're essentially using the lisbon treaty as your platform for your problems with how the eu is. You're voting no in the hope that it'll cause a change but that's very unlikely to happen because that's not what the treaty is about.

What you need to do is get a group together who share your concerns, and they are legitimate concerns, and call your local td. Try to get your concerns heard and bring it all the way to europe and maybe we'll have a new referendum. But by voting no to lisbon for that reason you're fighting the wrong battle

I salute your faith in the local TD route though I can't entirely share it, TD's in opposition have little power, those in government are supporting Lisbon, even if our government wanted an alternative future for the EU it's hard to see them making headway in the EU since the encuments want to go the Lisbon route.

I think a grassroots campaign is the right way but if it's going to have a chance it has to be multi-national, this is where Libertas becomes interesting. If it is true that the majority of EU citizens are unhappy with the direction the EU is taking then Libertas could potentially tap that and establish a significant beachhead in the parliament, people can vote Libertas for the EU but make completely different choices in local and national elections.

If we vote yes to Lisbon 2 it makes an alternative very difficult as leaders have said they won't come back to institutional reform for at least 10 years. If however we vote no, that can keep reform in play. Though Libertas most likely can't field enough credible candidates in the short time to the EU elections to achieve a parliamentary veto, the arrival of a grassroots power seeking an alternative EU is likely to make the governments of member states take notice.

We've seen how our own government can be out of touch with recent budget measures, but following hoi polloi are prepared to row back on the most intolerable changes. At the EU level national politicians have escaped the same level of scrutiny and accountability, but a party dedicated to EU level politics could change all that.

thelordofcheese

Dob74 wrote: »

I disagree. I voted NO because article 2 promotes the freedom of movement of labour. This is a fairly good idea if workers rights are up held. But this is not the case in this country and judging by the european court's ruling on the case in Sweden, the EU wish to undermine trade rates. Say no more about the GAMA case. This will turn the EU into the USSR. The bosses will be able to draft workers in from anywhere they feel fit. Including outside the EU. To under cut workers wages and the European Council, Courts and Parliment willl back them up.
The government poll showed the over 50's and students voted yes. The productive age of the country voted no. The number one reason I voted NO was of the free movement of labour. I don't think by next october all the problems will be gone. Independant Newspapers can run there line that the Polish are leaving but the numbers don't lie. 25.2k less irish working this year. The same number of non-irish at work. Don't get me started on the ECB!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually, the concept of Freedom of movement for workers dates from the Treaty of Rome (article 39 i think), the treaty of lisbon keeps all of these provisions as far as i can see. (and i don't think you mean article 2 either)

And yes, this means pretty much what you think it means, but it's meant that for quite some time.
Also, each member state is allowed to place limitations on who can come to work their (Ireland chose not to, but we could have), likewise what constitutes a "worker" is up to each member state, as in how long you have to work (or intend to work) before you can come into the country.

The basic idea is that it removes any discrimination based on nationality. Now you could see it as allowing businesses to outsource jobs, or you could see it as allowing business more scope to recruit people to fill positions for which the skills don't exist in the local skill pool.

Basically, what you seem to be asking for is some kind of "local jobs for local people" but you can't have that and then have the inverse whereby irish people can with relative ease apply for jobs in other countries with having to go through something like the horrid procedure that is the US or australian emmigration.

Toiletroll

thelordofcheese wrote: »

heh, nice to see you're still as staggeringly inept as normal.
Would you like to stop posting now, or am i going to have to suffer more of your innane bullshit?

Lord of Cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

I personally hate ever word you write.. I also personally hate every word that humanj bot writes....

thelordofcheese

Toiletroll wrote: »

You and Humanj have been coming on boards a lot posting complete and utter nonsense. Nobody should listen to anything that either you or humanj has to say on any topic imo due to it being compelte and utter B$

Ahahah. Classy.
I'm glad you feel that strongly about my opinion. It means i'm right.

Toiletroll wrote: »

You both always come along and post on similar topics backing each other up (so sad)

Really? I hadn't noticed.
That's kinda creepy, actually.

Toiletroll

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Heres a better question, does it fucking matter?

Listen to yourself... Then ban yourself

Toiletroll

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Ahahah. Classy.
I'm glad you feel that strongly about my opinion. It means i'm right.




Really? I hadn't noticed.
That's kinda creepy, actually.

I dont care about your opinion it is completely irrelevant.. Its your DISINFORMATION BULL**** thats gets me...

thelordofcheese

Toiletroll wrote: »

I dont care about your opinion it is completely irrelevant.. Its your DISINFORMATION BULL**** thats gets me...

Cite my "disinformation" and back up your claim then.

Terry

Toiletroll wrote: »

Lord of Cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

I personally hate ever word you write.. I also personally hate every word that humanj bot writes....

Banned for trolling.

Edit: Beaten to it, bollocko.

niceirishfella

Lord of Cheeze Fromage head , please refrain from bad language....try and keep it civil and clean language wise.
MODS! Pleazzzzzzzzzz, he's never stopped with the bad language and goading.

dr.bollocko

Terry wrote: »

Banned for trolling.

Edit: Beaten to it, bollocko.

Nope. You were right.