Lisbon 2: prepare to bend over and recieve ur destiny!

Teutorix

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Anyone watching Questions and Answers?

Don't think I've ever seen FF and FG agreeing with each other. Scary. ^^

if they agree it must be a cartel running the show!

anonymous_joe

Teutorix wrote: »

if they agree it must be a cartel running the show!

And an evil unelected elite made up of elected officials! The dastards.

andrew

anonymous_joe wrote: »

And an evil unelected elite made up of elected officials! The dastards.

Damn Fat Cats :rolleyes:

tritium

Christ you've got to love the indignation!

as I recall we have a long and ignomous tradition of voting until we get the answer "we" want. We did it on abortion, we did it on divorce and no one seemed to mind because we all though we were looking for the answer "we wanted". Now all of a sudden we want to defend democracy.

I'm just hoping this time people actually bother to figure out what they're voting for or against. Don't expect it though, why miss an opportunity to "stick one to the government"

God this country depresses me sometimes.

Valmont

ben bedlam wrote: »

How dare you question anyones motives for voting a particular way. We live in a democracy where it is everyones right to vote however, and whatever way they wish. That is protected by our constitution.

How dare I? Any more democratic trivia for me? Instead of getting so indignant why didn't you read what I was talking about:

"dont know what the lisbon treaty is about. i am 24 and have never registerd to vote before. however i will vote in this one and i will vote NO purely out of spite. making people vote twice ,what a chancer. didnt make us re -vote the general election they won last time the duplicitous *****"

This is the problem with democracy (I'm not a commie), people voting for completely arbitrary reasons.

andrew

tritium wrote: »

Christ you've got to love the indignation!

as I recall we have a long and ignomous tradition of voting until we get the answer "we" want. We did it on abortion, we did it on divorce and no one seemed to mind because we all though we were looking for the answer "we wanted". Now all of a sudden we want to defend democracy.

I'm just hoping this time people actually bother to figure out what they're voting for or against. Don't expect it though, why miss an opportunity to "stick one to the government"

God this country depresses me sometimes.

Good point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amendments_to_the_Constitution_of_Ireland Lists all the referenda we've had. So far we've voted twice on similar or identical amendments related to our voting system, divorce, Nice, and abortion. Would the people claiming that giving us a second vote on these issues was undemocratic too?

WooPeeA

Irish constitution vs. Lisbon Treaty
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3241/2682154240_e127c743f8.jpg :cool:

Otacon

Voltwad wrote: »

Yes to lisbon

I have one question that still has not been answered. Why?

mumhaabu

I think the libertas woman did quite well when she asked Micheal Martin what change was being made to the Lisbon treaty? The fact is none all the Government has got is a load of muted coughs and blurry promises that are not worth crap. He even said that these things would be applied to the Croation accession treaty.

The fact of the matter is that they know the EU is now bad for Ireland and we must resist it.

I would not accept the treaty unless it was totally re-written giving us guarantees and enshrining state soveriginity and immediate ease of withdrawal.

Jurg Haider (RIP) an Austrian far-right politician was elected to power and the EU tried to sanction the country yet it went nowhere yet they tried to interfere in Austrian internal affairs despite that choice being the democratic choice of the austrian people.

If we vote No it will make no difference except the EU will have to change the way it is run. Treaties like Lisbon should require a Referendum in every single member state and each state should have one vote each. This would allow Ireland to have as equal power as Germany and Malta to rival Ireland similary. This is democracy anything else is Dictatorship, The people are above the Governments and Government do not rule a country the people do, this why important decisions should be given to the people.

Libertas will run candidates in each EU Country and this will demonstrate a pan european referendum on Lisbon and no doubt Libertas will after the EU elections have more power than Ireland alltoghter. If Europe is to work there must be democratic unity not dictatorship. Tax rates can be harmonised by setting minimum and maximum levels and allowing adjustment within those with the move to a single tax rate.

I do not have a problem with more unity however I have issue with the way it is being done, we voted NO and we must get a better deal. Each state of the EU must be allowed to do what it wants and where it wants to be. There must be no bullying and restriction on imports must end like VRT.

WooPeeA

Otacon wrote: »

I have one question that still has not been answered. Why?

If power in hands of elected people, common security and less bureaucracy is not good reason to vote positive, then I have a question:

What would you like to see in the Treaty to vote YES?

WooPeeA

mumhaabu,

Your signature

Keep Ireland Independent, Vote for Democracy not Dictatorship, VOTE NO TO LISBON

presents reasons that are opposed to Lisbon Treaty. Vote for democracy is vote for Lisbon, simply because vote against means that you agree to keep the power in the hands of unelected people, as it works under current, old treaty.

Terry

Voting is not democratic?
Awesome.

WooPeeA

Terry wrote: »

Voting is not democratic?
Awesome.

I didn't say that.

brosps

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyy35k-5gK0&feature=related

charles haughey wouldnt let this hppen

i hope your all happy now,,

:pac::(

Terry

WooPeeA wrote: »

I didn't say that.

I didn't quote you.

Nehaxak

mumhaabu wrote: »

I think the libertas woman did quite well when she asked Micheal Martin what change was being made to the Lisbon treaty? The fact is none all the Government has got is a load of muted coughs and blurry promises that are not worth crap. He even said that these things would be applied to the Croation accession treaty.

Yep was watching that tonight, usually don't but it happened to be on after the prime time investigates which I had an interest in.
She asked the question well and persisted with it, however her question was never answered by the minister because he won't lie on TV. He and others will spin the whole thing as much as they can but the simple fact of the matter is that the text of treaty was not and will not be changed.
Mary Lou done well also, would've liked to have seen her get more time to speak but as usual RTE have their own agenda.
The yes camp "rent a crowd" in the audience were also rediculous.
Again, their heads too far up their own arse and too smug for their own good.

I'd be on the side of what Mary Lou was saying, if the text of the treaty were changed to take into account the reservations the Irish people have with it, then I could very well be persuaded to vote yes. As it stands though I do not trust the whole yes camp at this moment in time.
Was also good to see that the elitism, smugness and arse up the hole mentallity extends to Fine Gael - As much and how bad Fianna Fail are, I can't believe for a second that this country would be any better off under that other shower of muppets Fine Gael.

the-island-man

Ok here's a new perspective!
There are still yes campaigners! You say you think this treaty will make Europe more democratic and this tells me you value democracy!
But this treaty has been voted down already, are people that are campaigning for a yes vote again not then disrespecting the very idea of democracy?;)

the-island-man

Sam Vimes wrote: »

you've just called the answer to your question bull**** so i don't really know what else to say

edit, an analogy: what's 2+2? and don't give me that bull**** about 4

Thats because it is bull**** if we had to respect every other countries own system then the Union should have to stay out of domestic affairs also!

the-island-man

mumhaabu wrote: »

I would not accept the treaty unless it was totally re-written giving us guarantees and enshrining state soveriginity and immediate ease of withdrawal.

How can a re-written treaty enshrine state soveriginity when under the current circumstances we are not 100% soverign?

I would never say yes to anything the E.U ever puts in front of us again because how can we ever be sure that there is no corruption in Brussels its hard enough to know whether our own T.D's are corrupt or not!

whatisayis

This is the reason we are being asked by the EU to vote again. "Distorting the conditions of competition" is a very valid reference to Irelands corporate tax rate.

Article 116
Where the Commission finds that a difference between the provisions laid down by law,
regulation or administrative action in Member States is distorting the conditions of competition in the internal market and that the resultant distortion needs to be eliminated, it shall consult the Member States concerned.
X ** If such consultation does not result in an agreement eliminating the distortion in question the European Parliament and the Council, acting in accordance with the ordinary
legislative procedure, shall issue the necessary directives. Any other appropriate measures provided for in the Treaties may be adopted.

Article 294(Ordinary Legislative Procedures)
X**1. Where reference is made in the Treaties to the ordinary legislative procedure for the adoption of an act, the following procedure shall apply.
2. The Commission shall submit a proposal to the European Parliament and the Council.
First reading:
3. The European Parliament shall adopt its position at first reading and communicate it to
the Council.
4. If the Council approves the European Parliament's position, the act concerned shall be
adopted in the wording which corresponds to the position of the European Parliament.

Please note: X = Vote with a qualifies majority (no longer unanimous vote)
** = EP (European Parliament) may co-decide - i.e. propose amendments and reject a proposal by an absolute majority according to Article 294.

Germany and France are desperate to get Ireland to change its corporate tax law. All other issues in this re-vote are only smoke and mirrors to divert attention from this. Remember, the Lisbon Treaty cannot be altered in any way so once it is voted in, this will become law. Any concessions tacked on will not be legally binding to the Treaty and will not come into effect until the Croatia accession in 2/3 years. Germany and France will have plenty of time and plenty of support from other countries to make sure this will be enacted by then. There are plenty of other countries who have received funding from the EU but it is Irelands low corporate tax that has been the main reason Ireland prospered so much more than others. This is the question that needs to be asked of the government and, if they cannot give cast iron assurances on this, it will be a sad day for Ireland if we vote yes.

Sam Vimes

mumhaabu wrote: »

us guarantees and enshrining state soveriginity and immediate ease of withdrawal.

Under lisbon we will be able to withdraw. Currently we can't

mumhaabu wrote: »

If we vote No it will make no difference except the EU will have to change the way it is run. Treaties like Lisbon should require a Referendum in every single member state

i'm afraid that's a decision for each member state and not the eu. Unless you want the eu to force the member states that don't require a referendum to have one?

And who says another no vote will force that?

mumhaabu wrote: »

and each state should have one vote each. This would allow Ireland to have as equal power as Germany and Malta to rival Ireland similary. This is democracy anything else is Dictatorship,

bet you wouldn't be saying that if you lived in germany. How is it democratic to give 5 million the same voting power as 60 million?

mumhaabu wrote: »

There must be no bullying and restriction on imports must end like VRT.

You're absolutely right, vrt should go. However that has what to do with lisbon?

Sam Vimes

Nehaxak wrote: »

I'd be on the side of what Mary Lou was saying, if the text of the treaty were changed to take into account the reservations the Irish people have with it, then I could very well be persuaded to vote yes.

A report was done to find out why we voted no and it was determined that there was nothing in the treaty that could be changed to satisfy us. Basically because "i wasn't arsed finding out anything about it so i voted no out of dear of the unknown" isn't something that can be changed in the text of the treaty

thebman

the-island-man wrote: »

Ok here's a new perspective!
There are still yes campaigners! You say you think this treaty will make Europe more democratic and this tells me you value democracy!
But this treaty has been voted down already, are people that are campaigning for a yes vote again not then disrespecting the very idea of democracy?;)

No that isn't how democracy works.

Pangea

Those that voted yes first time round should vote no this time in spite. Just for making us vote twice shows the the voice of the people doesnt matter when we give the wrong answer.

Sam Vimes

the-island-man wrote: »

Thats because it is bull**** if we had to respect every other countries own system then the Union should have to stay out of domestic affairs also!

So now you're saying the eu should force its will onto countries that don't require a referendum to pass it? The only reason we had one is because our constitution required it. Should they also have been allowed to force us not to have one?

Ckal

Sam Vimes wrote: »

because it makes the eu run more efficiently. it's not going to result in hand jobs for all and neither is it going to result in mass abortion. it's just not that interesting.

you need a reason to vote no because the eu spent 5 years and millions of euro writing the treaty and it's not good enough to reject it "because". we have a responsibility as eu citizens to exercise our right to vote sensibly and not affect the lives of hundreds of millions of people "because"

"because it makes the eu run more efficiently." - This seems to be the only reason why some Yes people are voting Yes. (Not directly from here, but from asking people I know too). Surely if you are going to decide the fate of nearly 500 million people, you'd want more than that, right?

No voters are not anti-EU. We are not "sticking it to the government". We want a better deal. If we get a better deal (legally binding, that is), we will vote yes.

From what I can see and from what I've been told, No voters have more relevant reasons to vote no than yes voters have relevant reasons to vote yes.

thelordofcheese

whatisayis wrote: »

This is the reason we are being asked by the EU to vote again. "Distorting the conditions of competition" is a very valid reference to Irelands corporate tax rate.

Article 116
Where the Commission finds that a difference between the provisions laid down by law,
regulation or administrative action in Member States is distorting the conditions of competition in the internal market and that the resultant distortion needs to be eliminated, it shall consult the Member States concerned.
X ** If such consultation does not result in an agreement eliminating the distortion in question the European Parliament and the Council, acting in accordance with the ordinary
legislative procedure, shall issue the necessary directives. Any other appropriate measures provided for in the Treaties may be adopted.

Article 294(Ordinary Legislative Procedures)
X**1. Where reference is made in the Treaties to the ordinary legislative procedure for the adoption of an act, the following procedure shall apply.
2. The Commission shall submit a proposal to the European Parliament and the Council.
First reading:
3. The European Parliament shall adopt its position at first reading and communicate it to
the Council.
4. If the Council approves the European Parliament's position, the act concerned shall be
adopted in the wording which corresponds to the position of the European Parliament.

Please note: X = Vote with a qualifies majority (no longer unanimous vote)
** = EP (European Parliament) may co-decide - i.e. propose amendments and reject a proposal by an absolute majority according to Article 294.

Germany and France are desperate to get Ireland to change its corporate tax law. All other issues in this re-vote are only smoke and mirrors to divert attention from this. Remember, the Lisbon Treaty cannot be altered in any way so once it is voted in, this will become law. Any concessions tacked on will not be legally binding to the Treaty and will not come into effect until the Croatia accession in 2/3 years. Germany and France will have plenty of time and plenty of support from other countries to make sure this will be enacted by then. There are plenty of other countries who have received funding from the EU but it is Irelands low corporate tax that has been the main reason Ireland prospered so much more than others. This is the question that needs to be asked of the government and, if they cannot give cast iron assurances on this, it will be a sad day for Ireland if we vote yes.

Corporation tax isn't an area of EU compitance, this doesn't apply.

thelordofcheese

Ckal wrote: »

No voters are not anti-EU. We are not "sticking it to the government". We want a better deal. If we get a better deal (legally binding, that is), we will vote yes.

You've had all the time since the first vote to say what would constitute a "better deal". Where is it? What the hell do you actually want?

Ckal wrote: »

From what I can see and from what I've been told, No voters have more relevant reasons to vote no than yes voters have relevant reasons to vote yes.

Ahah.
People keep bleating on and on about why vote yes. Seems fair, we keep asking for why vote no, but keep getting mostly nebulous bullshit back.

Here's why i think this is worth voting yes

• The creation of a single foreign affairs post - Answers kissengers question of "who do i ring if i want to talk to europe". Also, provides a single voice on issues where europe is in agreement.
• Charter of Fundamental Rights is now legally binding - I consider this to be important, but then i oppose shit like the death penality, like the giant moralfag i am.
• The Legislative meetings of the EU council to be held in public - transparancy is always a good thing
• Mutual solidarity obliged - It's mostly a formality, but i hope this would lead to a euope wide plan for relief and aid after a terrorist attack/natural disaster
• Citizens' petitions - As potentially open to abuse as it is, a direct line from the public to the Commission is a good thing.
• Membership withdrawal clause - nothing was ever stopping us from leaving, but it's preferable to have the conditions and proceduires for withdrawl writen down
• Amending nature - Controversial, but i think the ability to ammend the treaty on a as needed basis is a good idea. Everything still needs to be ratified by the traditional means, but it means the EU needn't wait until the have enough legislation to form a new treaty before they can act on a known issue
• Combating climate change is now a stated abjective. Once again, i like this because i believe that man is a major component in climate change, and we should be doing everything we can to lessen our impact on the environemnt
• More power to the directly elected Parliament - by extending the whole codecision thing, it gives MEPs more power.

arybvtcw0eolkf

I'm a NO voter, and won't be changing my vote this time.

I'll even go so far as to say I won't listen to the SHIT argument put out by the YES side this time.

When I voted NO last time I expected that my vote would be respected, it wasn't.

The NO side fought a brave and fair fight and won, but NOOOOO the big bully boys in European wouldn't accept that. So I'll treat them like the bullies they are and hopefully beat them again.

ben bedlam

thelordofcheese wrote: »

You've had all the time since the first vote to say what would constitute a "better deal". Where is it? What the hell do you actually want?

Pig Cowen and Fianna Fail are going around suggesting "wow, look at what the EU has given us". Let me remind everyone that we have nothing altered. We must vote on the exact same treaty again, and should we bend over and vote yes, we then supposedly get so called "assurances", assurances that I might add have not even been drawn up yet. And who is to say that should Ireland vote yes, that there wont be a problem in giving us the assurances- perhaps an intervention from the Germans or French? The fact is that Ireland has no bargaining position, despite Cowen and co.'s attempts over the coming months to dupe us into believing our concerns are addressed. The EU holds ALL the cards, ALL the time.