Lisbon 2: prepare to bend over and recieve ur destiny!

Cow Moolester

Well Gay Mitchell MEP for Ireland e-mailed me back which allieviated some of my concerns. He speaks wise words

Ireland´s vote will be very slightly reduced in the event that there is a vote at the Council of Ministers but we will still have a vote which is way above our population size. (Votes at Council are in fact rare). The number of MEPs we have is also way above our population entitlement and we have a Commissioner on the same basis as Germany, the largest member state. Furthermore, we have the secretary general of the Commission, the secretary general before her was also Irish. Institutionally we punch way above our weight.

We will not be dominated by France and Germany in fact we used to be dominated, especially economically, by Britain and EU membership has given us great freedom.

European law already takes precedence in Ireland but inly on matters that are the competence of the EU as agreed by the various treaties. The Lisbon treaty specifies exactly what is for the EU to decide and what the Member States decide, what is not stated is also for member states should any such unforseen matters arise.

I believe we did not truly become sovereign until we joined what is now the EU. We used to believe that cheap agricultural exports to Britain and other countries was our main export but in fact our main export was our people. At one point our population dropped below 3 million, there are 800,000 people born in Ireland living in Britain alone. The British chancellor of the exchequer set our interest rates and the value of our currency. This is now done by the European Central Bank (ECB) for all Euro member states for the common good, not the good of one powerful state. We would have been lost without the ECB in the recent financial crisis, look at what happened to a small state like Iceland which now wants to join, Denmark now also wants to join the Euro.

We have nothing to fear but fear itself. Thank God we are in the EU or would be really in trouble now.

60 million Europeans died in the first half of the 20th century in two world wars that started on our continent. The EU is about peace and stability on the continent and from that can flow prosperity. We have learned how to live together and this is not by way of assimulation (where we all have to be the same) it is by integration (where we live side by side respecting each others traditions and culture).

I have four children and will very shortly have a second grandchild please God. I would not do anything that I did not believe was in their best interests and the best interests of all the children and adults of the Nation. The Lisbon Treaty was negotiated in the most open and democratic way and the OIreachtas was involved at every stage, that is why most of the mainstream democratic Parties in the Dail support Lisbon. No agreement is perfect but this one has met all the concerns and negotiating positions taken by both the Government and the main Opposition Parties.

I hope my reply helps to allay any concerns you have.

Sam Vimes

Ckal wrote: »

Article 113. Ireland will lose control of their taxes under mandatory tax harmonization to defeat competition. We will also lose the right to attract foreign investment, as we see fit (Article 207)

all that says is that the treaty makes it possible for the eu to get competence of tax in the future if unanimously agreed by all member states. it doesn't mean we will lose the competence if we vote yes.


as for article 207, here it is:

ARTICLE 207
1. A committee consisting of the Permanent Representatives of the Governments of the
Member States shall be responsible for preparing the work of the Council and for carrying out
the tasks assigned to it by the latter. The Committee may adopt procedural decisions in cases
provided for in the Council's Rules of Procedure.
2. The Council shall be assisted by a General Secretariat, under the responsibility of a
Secretary-General appointed by the Council.
The Council shall decide on the organisation of the General Secretariat by a simple majority.
3. The Council shall act by a simple majority regarding procedural matters and for the
adoption of its Rules of Procedure.".

i'm honestly confused as to how that means as you say:

Article 207
The Lisbon Treaty streamlines EU external trade policy by confirming that all key aspects of trade are exclusive EU competence and bringing an end to mixed agreements. The treaty brings all services and trade related aspects of intellectual property into EU competence, thus bringing to an end the long standing debate on competence in these fields. In a major innovation the treaty also brings foreign direct investment into EU competence

what am i missing? also, this website specifically states that the treaty doesn't give the eu any new exclusive competences. what does your quote mean by "confirming that all key aspects of trade are exclusive EU competence". does it just mean it states it again and doesn't change anything?

whatisayis wrote: »

And (as you put it) "the climate changed" because.....?

the climate changed because we voted no to lisbon. but "the climate changed" could mean absolutely anything. what's your point?

ShooterSF

I know this might be strange but when people repeatedly "thank God" in their correspondence it really put's me off. They could be the most educated person on a subject but it really grates me. Probably O.T.T but it does.

As for his points most of it is just opinion. Very few actual facts which is a problem I found in the last build up to Lisbon where the Yes parties just said "I think it's good. Vote Yes." I'm not saying either side did a good job but as a No voter I'd be happy if the Yes side took that approach again.

Maybe you only wanted clarification on those issues in which case it makes sense for him to only touch on those. If so disregard the above.

On another point could the Yes side please lay off the "we're trying to nudge the unwashed idiotic masses that voted NO towards an educated vote" crap.

Sam Vimes

ShooterSF wrote: »

On another point could the Yes side please lay off the "we're trying to nudge the unwashed idiotic masses that voted NO towards an educated vote" crap.

a report was compiled of the reasons people had for voting no and it determined that there was nothing in the treaty that could be changed to satisfy the reasons because the reasons had little to do with the treaty or were simply "i didn't understand it". the statement sounds fair enough to me

Dyr

Cow Moolester wrote: »

Well Gay Mitchell MEP

gay mitchell? jesus. FG shipped him off to europe just to keep him off the airwaves.

Nehaxak

Cow Moolester wrote: »

Well Gay Mitchell MEP for Ireland e-mailed me back which allieviated some of my concerns. He speaks wise words

Thank you for posting that, taking the politics of which party he belongs too out of it (fine gael are shíte after all) he does indeed speak wise words and very well put also I have to agree.

Cow Moolester

ShooterSF wrote: »

I know this might be strange but when people repeatedly "thank God" in their correspondence it really put's me off. They could be the most educated person on a subject but it really grates me. Probably O.T.T but it does.

As for his points most of it is just opinion. Very few actual facts which is a problem I found in the last build up to Lisbon where the Yes parties just said "I think it's good. Vote Yes." I'm not saying either side did a good job but as a No voter I'd be happy if the Yes side took that approach again.

Maybe you only wanted clarification on those issues in which case it makes sense for him to only touch on those. If so disregard the above.

On another point could the Yes side please lay off the "we're trying to nudge the unwashed idiotic masses that voted NO towards an educated vote" crap.

Yep I took some of the concerns raised in this thread and I e-mailed them to him.

The main ones I e-mailed to him were:
Ireland's vote in Europe being reduced due to a weighted voting system

A few who said European law will be able to supersede Irish law

Someone who claimed this would further remove Ireland's sovereignty and is a step towards created a "United States of Europe"

Nehaxak

I'm more concerned personally about dissolution of workers rights and the abolishment (or "harmonising") of our low corporation tax rates.

While I generally have a lot of problems with Europe, in all honesty I'm not ant-EU but I would prefer to get this treaty right now, rather than have to revisit the thing in later years due to faults within it or suffer any consequences of it.

I feel myself more and more going towards Sinn Fein's views on all of this...

Cow Moolester

Nehaxak wrote: »

I'm more concerned personally about dissolution of workers rights and the abolishment (or "harmonising") of our low corporation tax rates.

Isn't that one of the guaruntees if we ratify the treaty?

From Irishtimes article:
Mr Sarkozy said the other guarantees to Ireland — political commitments safeguarding neutrality, tax sovereignty and no EU interference in abortion laws - were “no problem” for the rest of Europe.

skelliser

the treaty aside for a minute.

From reading that post i have to ask, where was Gay Mitchell for the whole decade of the eighties, does he not remember the thousands of people emigrating, 48% tax rate, tax on childrens shoes ffs!, brown duffel coats, in fact the general brownness of all clothes! Was he cryogenically frozen or something!

Holsten

Happy to see the way the poll is at the minute.

Hope it's the same come results day on Lisbon 2, 3, 4....

ShooterSF

Sam Vimes wrote: »

a report was compiled of the reasons people had for voting no and it determined that there was nothing in the treaty that could be changed to satisfy the reasons because the reasons had little to do with the treaty or were simply "i didn't understand it". the statement sounds fair enough to me

Without getting into the debate how independent those reports were, I wasn't saying some No voters voted on silly reasons. I was having a go at the usual attitude that was creeping in that all no voters are thick uneducated idiots.
I've pulled up that point a few times in this thread and maybe Im seeing something that isnt there but it's the impression I get from a lot of Yes voters. There are stupid points made (repeatedly) on both sides and I feel like banging my head on the wall when either side starts but this one brush fits all attitude is not needed.

Quote: Cow Molester:
Yep I took some of the concerns raised in this thread and I e-mailed them to him.

The main ones I e-mailed to him were:
Ireland's vote in Europe being reduced due to a weighted voting system

A few who said European law will be able to supersede Irish law

Someone who claimed this would further remove Ireland's sovereignty and is a step towards created a "United States of Europe"

Fair enough.
I'll make one point for you (What you take of it is completely to you) about the vote. I had an argument with Scofflaw in the EU thread about giving up vetos as I see them as the real strenght of a small nation and from what I got of it my understanding was that most votes are done on a casual style anyway. Most votes are put forward knowing that no countries' representatives have a problem with them. From what I gathered they're pretty watered down to make sure no one feels aggrieved rather than to win a majority vote.

Sam Vimes

ShooterSF wrote: »

Without getting into the debate how independent those reports were, I wasn't saying some No voters voted on silly reasons. I was having a go at the usual attitude that was creeping in that all no voters are thick uneducated idiots.
I've pulled up that point a few times in this thread and maybe Im seeing something that isnt there but it's the impression I get from a lot of Yes voters. There are stupid points made (repeatedly) on both sides and I feel like banging my head on the wall when either side starts but this one brush fits all attitude is not needed.

i wouldn't say any of them are, most people just didn't bother. but i've been looking at this thread for days and i haven't seen anyone give a good reason why they voted no. someone gave three reasons a few pages back and they were all misinformation!

Dyr

skelliser wrote: »

the treaty aside for a minute.

From reading that post i have to ask, where was Gay Mitchell for the whole decade of the eighties, does he not remember the thousands of people emigrating, 48% tax rate, tax on childrens shoes ffs!, brown duffel coats, in fact the general brownness of all clothes! Was he cryogenically frozen or something!

i think he still is, above the neck. this is a TD who was once described as appearing to become aroused at the sight of a microphone :pac:

ShooterSF

Sam Vimes wrote: »

i wouldn't say any of them are, most people just didn't bother. but i've been looking at this thread for days and i haven't seen anyone give a good reason why they voted no. someone gave three reasons a few pages back and they were all misinformation!

Fair enough and I'll not go on my reasons again but as an example one reason I voted no is personally rightfully or not I'm against the citizens' initiative. Also now I have a new reason as I was convinced pre-Lisbon 1 that excess commissioners are pointless and we need a streamlined system. Ironically now voting No will give us that (per Nice) where as voting Yes will keep a tonne of pointless commissioners .
I see the humour in that point btw. I also realise that a lot of no voters last time would prefer every nation to keep a commissioner and I respect that opinion too.

tolosenc

Ckal wrote: »

Article 113. Ireland will lose control of their taxes under mandatory tax harmonization to defeat competition. We will also lose the right to attract foreign investment, as we see fit (Article 207)

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you, site crashing and all...

Anywho...

Article 113 is none other than article 99 of the Treat of Rome (1957), to which we already subscribe. There are no new taxation laws, the confusion arises as Lisbon is a consolidating treaty, ie all articles will now be in one document, to stop confusion and contradiction, so all previosuly accepted tax laws are put in it. It's nothing new, nothing different. So therefore, we will "lose" nothing.

As for Article 207, can I get some of that **** you're smoking?
That's not at all what it is, maybe you misquoted.

andrew

What grievences to people have about things that are in the Treaty? What will it take to convince people that certain things which they believe are in the treaty (like Corporation tax) aren't in the treaty?

WooPeeA

andrew wrote: »

What grievences to people have about things that are in the Treaty? What will it take to convince people that certain things which they believe are in the treaty (like Corporation tax) aren't in the treaty?

Might be hard. Many simply don't listen to anyone except themselves.

Valmont

I think the YES proponents have won this argument, well done fellows.

thebman

WooPeeA wrote: »

Might be hard. Many simply don't listen to anyone except themselves.

I think the main problem is a lot of people only listen to people who agree with them no matter who those people might be.

localnutjob

they'll get a yes from me....

.... but i want a new government here first ...

its one or the other lads !

Flex

I voted no the first time round. Simple reason is I dislike where the EU is heading. Theres a 'drip-drip' affect leading Europe toward becoming a unitary state which I dont want to be a part of and I dont buy into any ideas of 'Euro-nationalism' or 'pride in being European', and dont feel bound to vote yes for any of the following great reasons people I know had for voting Yes last time

• Because their parents vote for Fianna Fail all the time and they endorsed the treaty
• Because its a good idea to 'let Germany be in charge of the economy' (that was a funny one! lol)
• Because they hate Sinn Fein
• Because they dont like Libertas
• Because theyre all in favour of a European superstate
• Because the EU gave us money
• Because we'll lose influence in Europe (because we clearly have a great deal of influence in the EU)

I dont know how Ill vote this time though, Im open to change my mind and still undecided for the time being. I know the treaty provides clauses to secede from the Union which is great. Shall be giving it alot of thought again, looks like its in trouble though from this poll.

Run_to_da_hills

Greek unrest exposes downside of EU membership and this is even before any EU Constitution is enacted.

Greece has seen a week of major protests sparked by the shooting of a teenage boy. There’s widespread discontent in the country blamed on rising poverty, corruption and unemployment. Other problems linked to Greece’s membership of the EU have also played a role.

http://www.wiseupjournal.com/?p=708

tolosenc

Were Lisbon in, which in fairness it wouldn't be yet, we'd have the mutual solidatrity thingy-majig which would have 1000s of police/troops from all across Europe aiding the Greeks in stamping out those archists/commies. The Greek government ain't great, but if any of those "protestors" seriously think anarchism or communism would be a good path to head down, they need their head checked.

/off topic

badabinbadaboom

obl wrote: »

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you, site crashing and all...

Anywho...

Article 113 is none other than article 99 of the Treat of Rome (1957), to which we already subscribe. There are no new taxation laws, the confusion arises as Lisbon is a consolidating treaty, ie all articles will now be in one document, to stop confusion and contradiction, so all previosuly accepted tax laws are put in it. It's nothing new, nothing different. So therefore, we will "lose" nothing.

As for Article 207, can I get some of that **** you're smoking?
That's not at all what it is, maybe you misquoted.

Thats actually a very good point, I think things have gotten out of hand with talk of with superstates etc
If they had explained clearly to everyone that its just a document to make the EU run more cleanly ,BEFORE Sinn Feinn started started talking ****e ten alot more people would have voted Yes.
I nearly said yes, very nearly.
But I would rather this country left the EU and seeing as they wont be having a referendum on that I thought I'd stir some ****.
Might say yes this time round though, then next general election vote in an anti EU government and we can leave then because there'll be a mechanism for that in the treaty. Ironic really if i had figured that out first time round I probably would have said Yes duh:o

Mrmoe

Where exactly is the EU system not running efficiently at the moment? Can you cite concrete examples of this and how the new treaty will make it run more smoothly? If someone can provide a good example, something like this could change my vote from No to Yes.

Run_to_da_hills

Mrmoe wrote: »

Where exactly is the EU system not running efficiently at the moment? Can you cite concrete examples of this and how the new treaty will make it run more smoothly? If someone can provide a good example, something like this could change my vote from No to Yes.

The Treaty will make it run more efficiently by integrating "law and order" between member states. You get busted for any offense in any EU member country it carries right across the superstate, no matter how crooked the authorities are. The electronic "Smart card" will make this task a doddle.

Dob74

Cow Moolester wrote: »

Well Gay Mitchell MEP for Ireland e-mailed me back which allieviated some of my concerns. He speaks wise words

Ireland´s vote will be very slightly reduced in the event that there is a vote at the Council of Ministers but we will still have a vote which is way above our population size. (Votes at Council are in fact rare). The number of MEPs we have is also way above our population entitlement and we have a Commissioner on the same basis as Germany, the largest member state. Furthermore, we have the secretary general of the Commission, the secretary general before her was also Irish. Institutionally we punch way above our weight.

We will not be dominated by France and Germany in fact we used to be dominated, especially economically, by Britain and EU membership has given us great freedom.

European law already takes precedence in Ireland but inly on matters that are the competence of the EU as agreed by the various treaties. The Lisbon treaty specifies exactly what is for the EU to decide and what the Member States decide, what is not stated is also for member states should any such unforseen matters arise.

I believe we did not truly become sovereign until we joined what is now the EU. We used to believe that cheap agricultural exports to Britain and other countries was our main export but in fact our main export was our people. At one point our population dropped below 3 million, there are 800,000 people born in Ireland living in Britain alone. The British chancellor of the exchequer set our interest rates and the value of our currency. This is now done by the European Central Bank (ECB) for all Euro member states for the common good, not the good of one powerful state. We would have been lost without the ECB in the recent financial crisis, look at what happened to a small state like Iceland which now wants to join, Denmark now also wants to join the Euro.

We have nothing to fear but fear itself. Thank God we are in the EU or would be really in trouble now.

60 million Europeans died in the first half of the 20th century in two world wars that started on our continent. The EU is about peace and stability on the continent and from that can flow prosperity. We have learned how to live together and this is not by way of assimulation (where we all have to be the same) it is by integration (where we live side by side respecting each others traditions and culture).

I have four children and will very shortly have a second grandchild please God. I would not do anything that I did not believe was in their best interests and the best interests of all the children and adults of the Nation. The Lisbon Treaty was negotiated in the most open and democratic way and the OIreachtas was involved at every stage, that is why most of the mainstream democratic Parties in the Dail support Lisbon. No agreement is perfect but this one has met all the concerns and negotiating positions taken by both the Government and the main Opposition Parties.

I hope my reply helps to allay any concerns you have.

Gay Mitchell is in favour!

I am definately voting NO.

Fair to the "annoying git"!!!

badinfleunce

VOTE NO! - Europe is only good for Ireland when it suits the government. If they really wanted to be part of Europe they would follow the lead of most other European counterparts and reduce VAT, reduce Tax and try to stimulate the economy. Instead they are determined to run this country into the ground. REMOVE VRT and allow our car dealers to compete with European car retailers. Reduce Stamp duty to average European levels and encourage our population to buy property again. Encourage small business to get up off the ground - reduce the minimum wage ( Germany has a minimum wage of 4euros per hour). Roll out broadband at an afforable price. These are the basics and we cannot get this right yet we want to be part of a greater Europe with little or no infleunce in how our country will be ultimately run. Europe needs to be more streamlined in terms of taxation. While our country was booming we should have had a mechanism in place to control the inflation. This wasnt the case as the interest rates set by the ECB were favoured towards France and Germany who were not doing so well. There were very low rates to encourage their economies whilst our economy was booming this was fuelling our demise and here we are. VOTE NO and DONT LET EUROPE make us out to be FOOLS!

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Do we still use floride in our water? Why? We must be one of the last in Europe to do this... Will the treaty protect my drinking water?