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Lisbon 2: prepare to bend over and recieve ur destiny!

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    #1172
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    badinfleunce wrote: »
    VOTE NO! - Europe is only good for Ireland when it suits the government. If they really wanted to be part of Europe they would follow the lead of most other European counterparts and reduce VAT, reduce Tax and try to stimulate the economy. Instead they are determined to run this country into the ground. REMOVE VRT and allow our car dealers to compete with European car retailers. Reduce Stamp duty to average European levels and encourage our population to buy property again. Encourage small business to get up off the ground - reduce the minimum wage ( Germany has a minimum wage of 4euros per hour). Roll out broadband at an afforable price. These are the basics and we cannot get this right yet we want to be part of a greater Europe with little or no infleunce in how our country will be ultimately run. Europe needs to be more streamlined in terms of taxation. While our country was booming we should have had a mechanism in place to control the inflation. This wasnt the case as the interest rates set by the ECB were favoured towards France and Germany who were not doing so well. There were very low rates to encourage their economies whilst our economy was booming this was fuelling our demise and here we are. VOTE NO and DONT LET EUROPE make us out to be FOOLS!

    Also based on the above everyone should give money to greenpeace. I know that greenpeace has absolutely nothing to do with lisbon and giving greenpeace money will not do anything for any of the issues above but as long as we're bringing separate irrelevant topics into the debate i thought i'd get in on it


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    #1173
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    look people, you are not voting to voice your approval or lack thereof of fianna fail. You are not voting as a favour to fianna fail. You are not voting to voice your opinion on ireland's membership of the eu. You are not voting on any perceived direction the eu may or may not be heading towards a super state. You are not voting on tax. You are not voting as a protest vote about whatever your particular cause might be. Etc etc etc

    You are voting on the content of the lisbon treaty and nothing else. If you give something as a reason to vote no and it does not mention an article of the treaty and how it's bad for us and/or europe (and accurately represents what the quoted article is saying) then there is no point in posting in the thread because this thread is about the lisbon treaty and nothing else


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    #1174
    Popel
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭Popel


    badinfleunce wrote: »
    VOTE NO! - Europe is only good for Ireland when it suits the government. If they really wanted to be part of Europe they would follow the lead of most other European counterparts and reduce VAT, reduce Tax and try to stimulate the economy. Instead they are determined to run this country into the ground. REMOVE VRT and allow our car dealers to compete with European car retailers. Reduce Stamp duty to average European levels and encourage our population to buy property again. Encourage small business to get up off the ground - reduce the minimum wage ( Germany has a minimum wage of 4euros per hour). Roll out broadband at an afforable price. These are the basics and we cannot get this right yet we want to be part of a greater Europe with little or no infleunce in how our country will be ultimately run. Europe needs to be more streamlined in terms of taxation. While our country was booming we should have had a mechanism in place to control the inflation. This wasnt the case as the interest rates set by the ECB were favoured towards France and Germany who were not doing so well. There were very low rates to encourage their economies whilst our economy was booming this was fuelling our demise and here we are. VOTE NO and DONT LET EUROPE make us out to be FOOLS!

    Germany has no minimum wage. And severe unemployment problems. Maybe you should research a little before wanting to model ireland on countries like that.


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    #1175
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    Popel wrote: »
    Germany has no minimum wage. And severe unemployment problems. Maybe you should research a little before wanting to model ireland on countries like that.

    He's a politician ;)


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    #1176
    justcallmetex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 280 ✭✭justcallmetex


    Natalie Long Gunshot wrote: »
    Do we still use floride in our water? Why? We must be one of the last in Europe to do this... Will the treaty protect my drinking water?

    only democracy in the world to do it


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    #1177
    rcecil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 78 ✭✭rcecil


    Oh Great! Another chance to reward banks, developers and polluters for their successful takeover of democratic institutions. So called legal guarantees will fade into the clouds before being implemented in a new treaty later. Listening to Mary Lou McDonald being shouted down on Questions and Answers should let anyone know what respect is being given to the majority of Irish voters.

    Give the corporate parties another slap when this vote comes. Or face working at ASDA/WalMart when the corporates get their way.


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    #1178
    Ciaran500
    Registered Users Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    Where are all these new posters coming from that are blasting the treaty with sensationalist crap without actually posting any evidence?
    localnutjob wrote: »
    they'll get a yes from me....

    .... but i want a new government here first ...

    its one or the other lads !

    How is that related at all? You're not voting on our government.


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    #1179
    FoldedShirt
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭FoldedShirt


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    look people, you are not voting to voice your approval or lack thereof of fianna fail. You are not voting as a favour to fianna fail. You are not voting to voice your opinion on ireland's membership of the eu. You are not voting on any perceived direction the eu may or may not be heading towards a super state. You are not voting on tax. You are not voting as a protest vote about whatever your particular cause might be. Etc etc etc

    Finally some sense. This applies to both sides however, and I'm glad you mentioned that we are not voting to voice our opinion on Ireland's membership of the EU. The Yes side has inundated us with soundbites about "being at the heart of Europe", "Europe has been good to us", "We'll be like Iceland if we vote no". These are totally irrelevant to the Lisbon Treaty. In particular, the Iceland-argument seems to be the new black for the Yes side. We're in the EU and the Euro, Iceland is not. Our membership of those two organisations is not in question. Therefore Iceland has absolutely nothing to do with Lisbon.


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    #1180
    Nehaxak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,717 ✭✭✭Nehaxak


    I'm still voting no. There's been nothing but rhetoric or self serving flaffle from the majority of those posting in here advocating a yes vote.

    I want a general election before the next referendum or I'm voting no.
    Couldn't care less about anything else, whether the treaty is good or bad for us, I'll still vote No as a protest vote and to cause an implosion of nerd rage.

    General election before a referendum.


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    #1181
    Cosmo K
    Registered Users Posts: 985 ✭✭✭Cosmo K


    Germany has no minimum wage. And severe unemployment problems.

    Actually, unemployment in germany is at 7.1 % at the moment, wouldn't call that severe.


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    #1182
    constitutionus
    Registered Users Posts: 7,988 ✭✭✭constitutionus


    79 PAGES in six days ?

    FCUK me.

    voted no, like im going to vote no next time, just like i voted no last time.

    roll on lisbon 3 in 2010 when we can do it ALL again :)

    oh and look forward to being called "anti EU" because you use the net and dont rely on "trusted" media. :):)


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    #1183
    Ciaran500
    Registered Users Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    constitutionus wrote: »
    oh and look forward to being called "anti EU" because you use the net and dont rely on "trusted" media. :):)

    I always get a laugh from comments like this. Who are your trusted media?


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    #1184
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    This one could be appropriate to the Lisbon referendum. :D

    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3106/2518208457_c47fbd95b4.jpg?v=0


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    #1185
    constitutionus
    Registered Users Posts: 7,988 ✭✭✭constitutionus


    Ciaran500 wrote: »
    I always get a laugh from comments like this. Who are your trusted media?

    well, and im taking this from a leaked EU report on the coverage, the irish times, RTE and the S/INDO were all "on side" in their message.

    where as us net boys were uniformaly "anti- EU" :):):) both boards and politics.ie were mentioned by name !

    took a dig at independant radio like matt copper and newstalk too. calling them "tabliod" unlike the "balanced" (!) state broadcaster .

    its still out there on the net some where so i suppose if you google it you can read for yourself. ( just checked, type in "leaked report on lisbon media coverage" into google and its the first PDF that turns up )

    its a gas read as the language used was never supposed to be for public consumption and as such sounded like a blurb for pravda :)


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    #1186
    panda100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭panda100


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    look people, you are not voting to voice your approval or lack thereof of fianna fail. You are not voting as a favour to fianna fail. You are not voting to voice your opinion on ireland's membership of the eu. You are not voting on any perceived direction the eu may or may not be heading towards a super state. You are not voting on tax. You are not voting as a protest vote about whatever your particular cause might be. Etc etc etc

    You are voting on the content of the lisbon treaty and nothing else. If you give something as a reason to vote no and it does not mention an article of the treaty and how it's bad for us and/or europe (and accurately represents what the quoted article is saying) then there is no point in posting in the thread because this thread is about the lisbon treaty and nothing else

    I disagree with this mentality wholeheartedly.

    Lisbon for many is ,and should be, a protest vote. For me, In the first referendum it was a protest vote against the neoliberal agenda of EU policys.
    I think the free market policys of the EU are detrimental to Ireland and all other EU countries as a whole.

    I have my eyes wide open when voting in Lisbon part deux:
    I see in Spain 3 million people unemployed and that number rising each day.
    I see in Italy almost 2million workers taking strike action in over 100 cities in the last month.
    I see the Greek goverment call a state of emergency as people rise up in mass social revolt against goverment and EU policy.
    I see 100,000 school students walk out in Germany as the goverment continue to attack education and enforce privatisiation.

    How can I ignore all this while casting a vote on EU policy?
    Il be voting No as the EU continues to undermine and attack workers,education,even privatising our darn water supply while most struggle for jobs. I do not agree with EU policy of free uncontrollable,unregulated markets that have caused Europes economy to come crashing down around our ears.
    Workers, school students,the young and the old are not to blame for this crisis? Yet in the first sign of trouble EU countries dont rush to protect their most vunerable and the unemployed. They rush to bail out the millionaire financiers and bankers who were left unregulated by EU policy and have caused us to enter the worst financial crisis since 1929.

    When we voted No in Lisbon part one, workers of Greece, Italy, Spain,germany rejoiced as we were able to be their voice. The voice they were denied in Lisbon is now being taken out in militant and agressive action on the streets of capital citys across Europe. Thankfully our protest vote we are allowed in the ballot box wont be tear gassed like the protesters in Greece


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    #1187
    FoldedShirt
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭FoldedShirt


    constitutionus wrote: »
    well, and im taking this from a leaked EU report on the coverage, the irish times, RTE and the S/INDO were all "on side" in their message.

    where as us net boys were uniformaly "anti- EU" :):):) both boards and politics.ie were mentioned by name !

    took a dig at independant radio like matt copper and newstalk too. calling them "tabliod" unlike the "balanced" (!) state broadcaster .

    its still out there on the net some where so i suppose if you google it you can read for yourself. ( just checked, type in "leaked report on lisbon media coverage" into google and its the first PDF that turns up )

    its a gas read as the language used was never supposed to be for public consumption and as such sounded like a blurb for pravda :)


    Here it is:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2008/lisbondocument/index.pdf

    It reads like a transition year project. Any social scientist would be appalled by their methodology. I particularly like the bit about the owner of politics.ie skewing the debate. If they bothered to look at the site, they would have seen the thread where announced he was stepping back from moderating the Lisbon Treaty forum because of the conflict of interest.


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    #1188
    constitutionus
    Registered Users Posts: 7,988 ✭✭✭constitutionus


    thanks for that man.

    im on the dinosaur in work and it cant even download PDFs, had to look at it in html.

    the best bit for me was at the end where it says "mainstream indingnous irish media has tended to be cricitcal, but overall PRO european

    so that would be "biased" :)

    and then has the audacity to say the quality of debate has suffered because people with cop on have the termerity to move away from it !

    i agree about the targeting of dave on P.IE . disgracefull, but TBH im amazed they didnt try to do the same to cloud here.

    still if theyre that scared we must be doing something right for freedom of speech. :):):)

    ive a feeling LIS 2 will have a MAJOR internet aspect to it. god help us !


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    #1189
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    panda100 wrote: »
    I disagree with this mentality wholeheartedly.

    Lisbon for many is ,and should be, a protest vote. For me, In the first referendum it was a protest vote against the neoliberal agenda of EU policys.
    I think the free market policys of the EU are detrimental to Ireland and all other EU countries as a whole.

    if we were having the divorce referendum now would you vote whichever way the government didn't want you to as a protest vote? because that would make as much sense as voting no to lisbon because there's high unemployment in spain


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    #1190
    FoldedShirt
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭FoldedShirt


    FoldedShirt wrote: »
    Here it is:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2008/lisbondocument/index.pdf

    It reads like a transition year project. Any social scientist would be appalled by their methodology. I particularly like the bit about the owner of politics.ie skewing the debate. If they bothered to look at the site, they would have seen the thread where announced he was stepping back from moderating the Lisbon Treaty forum because of the conflict of interest.

    They got some things right:
    News content on the main commercial national station TV3 is of quite low quality.
    What really concerned me was the following:
    There is a shift away from the State news Radio and TV stations. This means that the quality of debate has suffered.

    Reading between the lines, it's says that a free press is a bad thing. It's not the quality of debate that has suffered, it's the government control on that debate. And this is regarded as a worrying trend...


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    #1191
    Nehaxak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,717 ✭✭✭Nehaxak


    Are there any yes campaigners posting on boards recently who are associated with the Irish government and intentionally posting on here to try change peoples minds with their propaganda ?
    Any care to declare their interests ?

    You know if you don't declare them and it did eventually come out saying otherwise, it would be a serious blow to the yes campaign and be seen as an affront to democracy, an underhanded, sly propaganda stunt.


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    #1192
    Mcfast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88 ✭✭Mcfast


    Natalie Long Gunshot wrote: »
    I'm still voting no, the rest of europe can shag off...


    +1. no means no @ssholes


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    #1193
    SoWatchaWant
    Registered Users Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭SoWatchaWant


    Madness...?


    THIS IS IRELAND:mad::eek:


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    #1194
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Nehaxak wrote: »
    Are there any yes campaigners posting on boards recently who are associated with the Irish government and intentionally posting on here to try change peoples minds with their propaganda ?
    Any care to declare their interests ?

    You know if you don't declare them and it did eventually come out saying otherwise, it would be a serious blow to the yes campaign and be seen as an affront to democracy, an underhanded, sly propaganda stunt.

    No it wouldn't.
    FoldedShirt wrote: »
    They got some things right:

    What really concerned me was the following:

    Reading between the lines, it's says that a free press is a bad thing. It's not the quality of debate that has suffered, it's the government control on that debate. And this is regarded as a worrying trend...

    Yeah well this government really hates the Internet for some reason. They'll do anything to stop people getting their hands on it.

    People of course are too stupid to watch what the government is planning to do to technology. They know just enough to know they don't like it. Stupid free speech, how dare they!!


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    #1195
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,052 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Nehaxak wrote: »
    Are there any yes campaigners posting on boards recently who are associated with the Irish government and intentionally posting on here to try change peoples minds with their propaganda ?
    Any care to declare their interests ?

    You know if you don't declare them and it did eventually come out saying otherwise, it would be a serious blow to the yes campaign and be seen as an affront to democracy, an underhanded, sly propaganda stunt.

    I'm a yes voter and have no connection whatsoever with the Irish government or any political party or lobby group. I'm a Europhile and always have been.

    The no voters accuse yes voters like me of being arrogant, but I believe that it is true arrogance to believe that Ireland will survive on its own, or that any other small EU country will, especially at the present time.

    I'd like to ask the same question as you about the no campaigners who seem to have suddenly come out of the wood-work.


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    #1196
    Mcfast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88 ✭✭Mcfast


    lol @ europhile!^


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    #1197
    andrew
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,372 Mod ✭✭✭✭andrew


    Nehaxak wrote: »
    Are there any yes campaigners posting on boards recently who are associated with the Irish government and intentionally posting on here to try change peoples minds with their propaganda ?
    Any care to declare their interests ?

    You know if you don't declare them and it did eventually come out saying otherwise, it would be a serious blow to the yes campaign and be seen as an affront to democracy, an underhanded, sly propaganda stunt.

    I'm Declan Ganley.


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    #1198
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,052 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Mcfast wrote: »
    lol @ europhile!^

    lol @ trollophile! :P


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    #1199
    constitutionus
    Registered Users Posts: 7,988 ✭✭✭constitutionus


    andrew wrote: »
    I'm Declan Ganley.

    *envisages scene from spartacus*

    no I'M Declan Ganley !

    :)


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    #1200
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    brim4brim wrote: »
    No it wouldn't.

    don't feed the troll


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    #1201
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Mcfast wrote: »
    +1. no means no @ssholes

    except when no means "i had no idea what it was about and wasn't arsed finding out so ignorance and fear made me vote no!!!"


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