Lisbon 2: prepare to bend over and recieve ur destiny!

Ace2007

Bambi wrote: »

Allow me to put you straight so: They voted no.

In a democracy you're supposed to accept the people's verdict, do you accept it?

Just like i have to accept that fianna fail will be in power until judgment day.

why not have FF in power for good then - everyone voted for them - why do we have to vote them in again in 5 years time....

exact same reason to vote for lisbon again - things change, people's views change - and if they don't then FF will always be in power...

panda100

Sam Vimes wrote: »

if we were having the divorce referendum now would you vote whichever way the government didn't want you to as a protest vote? because that would make as much sense as voting no to lisbon because there's high unemployment in spain

Voting on moral issues such as abortion or divorce has absolutely no impact on the day to day running of the country.So comparing a divorce referendum to Lisbon is stupid. Voting Yes to Lisbon will be a vote in favour of EU economic policy and EU institutions, which will mean a yes for free unregulated markets,privatisation and banker bailouts. I do not agree with running socity in such a way so I shall vote No.

Unemployment in Spain has absolutely everything to do with our current unsustainable capitalist economic system which the EU and EU member states pursue.

Dyr

andrew wrote: »

So you're saying the reasons for which people voted no are unimportant? Why?

lets start with the fundamental stuff first. Do you accept the outcome of the referendum?

andrew

Bambi wrote: »

lets start with the fundamental stuff first. Do you accept the outcome of the referendum?

I asked you a question a few posts back. Are you going to answer it or what?

And what do you mean by accept?

Dyr

Ace2007 wrote: »

why not have FF in power for good then - everyone voted for them - why do we have to vote them in again in 5 years time....

exact same reason to vote for lisbon again - things change, people's views change - and if they don't then FF will always be in power...

Lets run with the analogy, Fianna Fail wont win an election tomorrow and then have to face another one next year because fine gael werent happy with the result.

If we shelve the lisbon treaty for five - ten years and revisit it then, thats great. Worked for abortion and divorce.

tolosenc

The second running of the divorce referendum happened when it did because sufficient time had passed for the opinion of the populus to have changed. If the Oireachtas believes that 16 months is enough, so be it.

panda100 - communists, anarchists and anarcho-communists have no place in this debate. Or any debate.

whatisayis

andrew wrote: »

First of all, you havn't linked countries 'making a complaint' and us being forced to change our taxes. Second, France and Germany aren't the only countries in the EU, it's not as if they can pass whatever they want. In fact, with QMV being introduced in Lisbon, it'll become harder. Third of all, some business leader has come out in favour of Lisbon, someone mentioned him a few posts back, mentioning explicitly that there's not threat to our tax. I'd tend to go with the jusgement of someone who would be adversely affected by a higher tax rate.

Irish Times Mon 04 Apr 2007
Concern at EU corporate tax plan
Plans to harmonise corporation tax across the European Union could undermine Irish sovereignty and threaten inward investment in the economy, an internal Government document has warned.The document, a copy of which has been seen by The Irish Times, also warns that, while the unanimity required to implement the measure is lacking, the proposal has the support of all major EU states except Britain.

This internal memo was never made public as far as I know. The Lisbon Treaty under Article 116 removes the need for unanimity.

Here is a link to the Irish Times articles regarding this.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0408/1207602058354.html

PrettyInPunk

Yes yes yes. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

andrew

whatisayis wrote: »

Irish Times Mon 04 Apr 2007
Concern at EU corporate tax plan
Plans to harmonise corporation tax across the European Union could undermine Irish sovereignty and threaten inward investment in the economy, an internal Government document has warned.The document, a copy of which has been seen by The Irish Times, also warns that, while the unanimity required to implement the measure is lacking, the proposal has the support of all major EU states except Britain.

This internal memo was never made public as far as I know. The Lisbon Treaty under Article 116 removes the need for unanimity.

Here is a link to the Irish Times articles regarding this.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0408/1207602058354.html

So according to the times article, the govt. has concluded that removing our low corporation tax would be a bad thing, and that other countries don't like our low tax rate. Right...we knew that already.

I'm not entirely convinced of the method by which a plan to harmonise corp. tax rates would go through though. You said yourself, under article 116 countries can lodge a complaint... and thats it. A complaint isn't the same as a complete change in our corporation tax policy, so i remain unconvinced.

PrettyInPunk wrote: »

Yes yes yes. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

What are you, 5?

Nuravictus

obl wrote: »

panda100 - communists, anarchists and anarcho-communists have no place in this debate. Or any debate.

So just because hes not for open markets hes a Commie, giving money to people who on recorded are using the money to pay out bonus's & buy more assets instead of providing liqud Capital to the market.

Im going to vote no even thou I voted yes last time but wanted to vote no.

"I voted yes because when we joined the Euro we lost all our sovern ablities anyhow".

PrettyInPunk

andrew wrote: »

So according to the times article, the govt. has concluded that removing our low corporation tax would be a bad thing, and that other countries don't like our low tax rate. Right...we knew that already.

I'm not entirely convinced of the method by which a plan to harmonise corp. tax rates would go through though. You said yourself, under article 116 countries can lodge a complaint... and thats it. A complaint isn't the same as a complete change in our corporation tax policy, so i remain unconvinced.



What are you, 5?

six

Darragh29

A very interesting exercise would be to suggest to the Irish government, that we, the Irish people would like to hold another general election early next year, even though we only had one last year, we know that, but we feel that it's "very important" that we have another general election next year because this is after all "what the people want" and let's not forget, "we are talking about the health of country here and the future of our economy"...

Do you think we could possibly maniulate them into obliging us with another general election next year, because you know, "we really need to get this right and it's starting to look like the decision we made last year during the general election is now seriously harming us and our economy and bringing us back to the 1980's"!?!?!

Not a f*cking hope!!!

FoldedShirt

Ckal wrote: »

I said that some Yes voters voted for something else entirely. It's proven in the Eurobarometer. I think it's time some people get it into their heads that some yes voters didn't vote on the contents of the Lisbon Treaty. I also think it's time that some yes voters stopped taking the "I'm a yes voter, I know better" attitude, when you clearly don't "know better".

Let's put it in black and white. Reasons for voting Yes:

32% It was in the best interest of Ireland (vague, doesn't really mean anything. You could argue that 100% of Yes-voters thought it was in our interests and 100% of No-voters thought it wasn't. That's why they voted that way!)

19% Ireland gets a lot of benefit from the EU (nothing to do with Lisbon Treaty)

9% It keeps Ireland fully engaged in Europe (nothing to do with the Lisbon Treaty unless by "engaged" people meant further integrated)

9% It will help the Irish economy (nothing to do with the Lisbon Treaty)

5% It gives the EU a more effective way of making decisions (the first totally relevant reason, and it's only 5%!)

4% It makes the EU more effective on the global stage (relevant)

A few relevant reasons getting 1-2% such as co-operation on crime etc.

Reasons for voting No:

22% Don't understand and don't want to vote for something I'm not familiar with (legitimate reason - you don't sign a contract you don't understand. It has been argued by some that these people shouldn't have voted)

12% To protect Irish identity (loosely related to the Lisbon Treaty in that it brings about more integration)

6% Neutrality (there was a lot about a military identity/funding for the EU in the Lisbon Treaty, so this probably relates to that as well as neutrality. A valid reason)

6% I do not trust our politicians (irrelevant, although they did write the Treaty)

6% Commissioner (irrelevant)

5% Against unified Europe (probably votes No to all treaties)

4% Protest against government (irrelevant)

4% To avoid an EU that speaks as one on global issues! (relevant)

4% Large EU states decide on EU matters (relevant)

3% Protect the influence of small states (relevant, the same as the reason above just worded differently)

There were a few more reasons with 1 or 2% such as abortion, euthanasia, immigration (which is probably understated and perhaps reflected in part by the "Irish identity" answer). Strangely only 1% voted No because they were happy with the status quo (like me!)

Being kind to the Yes side (counting "fully engaged" as a valid reason), 18% of Yes-voters voted Yes for relevant reasons. Being harsh to the No side (not counting the "don't understand" reason), at least 31% voted No for reasons relevant to the Treaty.

ShooterSF

obl wrote: »

panda100 - communists, anarchists and anarcho-communists have no place in this debate. Or any debate.

Not that I agree with him but don't people with different opinions have a right to join the debate.
Think I remember you taking offense to me sidelining the church earlier in the thread.

On Topic:
Nice work Folded Shirt, think I'll be borrowing that calculation from now on. Any Yes voters want to contest those figures?
Edit: I'd add in the 6 percent commissioner as well considering it has changed. I don't agree with a lot of No voters on that one issue but it was obviously relevant.

My name is Mud

FoldedShirt wrote: »

6% Neutrality (there was a lot about a military identity/funding for the EU in the Lisbon Treaty, so this probably relates to that as well as neutrality. A valid reason)

Its kinda odd that the neutrality issue always comes up.

Quite soon after the Lisbon 1 vote, Russia invaded parts of Georgia. Does Lisbon have clauses outlining that other member states will help each other out in cases like this involving member states?

Obviously, I know that Georgia is not an EU member state, but essentially is that scenario what the Lisbon provisions cover for EU member states?

Sam Vimes

panda100 wrote: »

Voting on moral issues such as abortion or divorce has absolutely no impact on the day to day running of the country.So comparing a divorce referendum to Lisbon is stupid. Voting Yes to Lisbon will be a vote in favour of EU economic policy and EU institutions, which will mean a yes for free unregulated markets,privatisation and banker bailouts. I do not agree with running socity in such a way so I shall vote No.

it will be nothing of the sort

panda100 wrote: »

Unemployment in Spain has absolutely everything to do with our current unsustainable capitalist economic system which the EU and EU member states pursue.

right it has a lot to do with all of that but not lisbon

anonymous_joe

My name is Mud wrote: »

Its kinda odd that the neutrality issue always comes up.

Quite soon after the Lisbon 1 vote, Russia invaded parts of Georgia. Does Lisbon have clauses outlining that other member states will help each other out in cases like this involving member states?

Obviously, I know that Georgia is not an EU member state, but essentially is that scenario what the Lisbon provisions cover for EU member states?

In essence, if Russia was to invade Finland again, the idea would be that the EU, their close economic, cultural allies would help them. Obviously it would be incredibly unlikely that anyone would be unlikely an EU Nation if they knew the others would look out for them. I'm not sure what the problem people have with the idea of defending your allies.

Ciaran500

whatisayis wrote: »

Irish Times Mon 04 Apr 2007
Concern at EU corporate tax plan
Plans to harmonise corporation tax across the European Union could undermine Irish sovereignty and threaten inward investment in the economy, an internal Government document has warned.The document, a copy of which has been seen by The Irish Times, also warns that, while the unanimity required to implement the measure is lacking, the proposal has the support of all major EU states except Britain.

This internal memo was never made public as far as I know. The Lisbon Treaty under Article 116 removes the need for unanimity.

Here is a link to the Irish Times articles regarding this.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0408/1207602058354.html

http://www.tax-news.com/asp/story/Irelands_Lisbon_Treaty_Tax_Fears_Unfounded_xxxx33419.html
Mark Redmond, Chief Executive of the Irish Taxation Institute welcomed the Irish government's recent re-affirmation of Ireland's 12.5% corporate tax rate, but he also pointed out that the Lisbon Treaty would have allowed Ireland to retain its veto on tax issues, and the treaty would not have forced harmonized EU tax rates on the country.

WooPeeA

walshb wrote: »

I will tell you a damn good reason now. The first vote being rejected and not respected is
the best reason in the world and tells you exactly what sort of folk are running Europe!

Bunch of bully boys who don't get the answer they want and they won't accept it?
That is enough alone for me!

It's not the reason against text of the Treaty. It's the reason to vote against Ireland's government decision to organize referendum.

Still waiting for reason to vote No to the Treaty...

WooPeeA

walshb wrote: »

So, what if VOTE 2 is rejected? What then?
Are we again branded ignorant and uneducated etc and asked to go
for a third time?

Simply,

- unelected elite will keep the power
- elected MEPs will have only 10% of power, instead of 95% as Lisbon provides
- no security system
- no help in case of war or natural disaster
- Ireland will lose commissioner quicker than under Lisbon Treaty
- Ireland will be ignored and disliked in Europe

For rest of many consequences read the topic. It has been written many times before.

Ciaran500

Who are the "unelected elite"?

ShooterSF

anonymous_joe wrote: »

In essence, if Russia was to invade Finland again, the idea would be that the EU, their close economic, cultural allies would help them. Obviously it would be incredibly unlikely that anyone would be unlikely an EU Nation if they knew the others would look out for them. I'm not sure what the problem people have with the idea of defending your allies.

Because you can have economic allies without being military allies.

WooPeeA

Nehaxak wrote: »

NO TEXT will be changed whatsoever in the original treaty that will once again be proposed to the Irish people to vote on. NOT A SINGLE WORD of the original text will change.

So, you've answered yourself, it is unfair as we are being asked to vote on exactly the same text of the treaty. Assuraces and wink wink, nudge nudge's don't go down very well with Irish people who are sick to the teeth with corruption and dishonest politicians in their own country, we're not going to bend over and take it up the fine gael from Europe as well.

So what article should be changed to vote yes then? There must be some change with which you disagree if you want changes in text, isn't it?

Let me guess.. You're not able to answer that question because you know nothing about the Treaty even though you ask people to reject it!! Am I correct?

WooPeeA

James Hogan wrote: »

I voted No before and shall again. To those who argue that "Ireland has done well from the EU and should not be turning its back on Europe now," I agree that since the inception of the original Common Market, yes, Ireland has benefitted from closer economic ties. So let's leave things at that, and not complicate things

Complicate?? You're kidding me? It makes EU as simple as never before!!

I don't want any part of Europe's obedient servility in supporting America's wars of aggression.

What does it have to do with Lisbon Treaty?

I want no part of a Europe in which official prosecutors can tell me what I should think, what I can express, and what I'm permitted to debate.

The same question, what does it have to do with Lisbon Treaty.

What article of the Treaty forbids you to express yourself and think whatever you want?

WooPeeA

Ciaran500 wrote: »

Who are the "unelected elite"?

Well maybe I used too strong words. I meant commissioners and councils.

They are chosen by people who, in fact, were chosen by ourselves (national parliaments), but not directly by us, which I oppose. That's why I called them "unelected".

Darragh29

WooPeeA wrote: »

Still waiting for reason to vote No to the Treaty...

Here's a few for you to mull over...

(1) I don't trust the people who are pushing me to vote yes.

(2) I don't respond well to threats.

(3) I already voted no last year and don't like having to repeat myself.

(4) I'm protesting against the current government with a no vote and make absolutely no apologies whatsoever for doing so.

WooPeeA

Darragh29 wrote: »

Here's a few for you to mull over...

(1) I don't trust the people who are pushing me to vote yes.

Nothing to do with Lisbon Treaty.

(2) I don't respond well to threats.

I haven't seen any threats in the Treaty. Ireland votes on Treaty, not on arrogant politicians.

(3) I already voted no last year and don't like having to repeat myself.

As I see you haven't vote against the Treaty, but against internal problems. But why does it have to touch 500 million people?

(4) I'm protesting against the current government with a no vote and make absolutely no apologies whatsoever for doing so.

Again, nothing to do with Lisbon Treaty.


Still waiting for reasonable reasons to vote to Lisbon Treaty.

My name is Mud

Darragh29 wrote: »

(4) I'm protesting against the current government with a no vote and make absolutely no apologies whatsoever for doing so.

You should really protest at the dipshits that voted for FF then...unless you were a FF voter...and protest against yourself?

Darragh29

WooPeeA wrote: »

Nothing to do with Lisbon Treaty.


I haven't seen any threats in the Treaty. Ireland votes on Treaty, not on arrogant politicians.


As I see you haven't vote against the Treaty, but against internal problems. But why does it have to touch 500 million people?


Again, nothing to do with Lisbon Treaty.


Still waiting for reasonable reasons to vote to Lisbon Treaty.

You see this is the intrasigence you get from the yes side. I can vote for or against this treaty for any reason or indeed for no reason at all. This is my entitlement as a citizen. I am under no obligation whatsoever ever to put on my blinkers and just look at the treaty, I am entitled to make whatever judgements I wish on the government that is asking me to vote and I can make what ever judgements I wish and involve these judgements in whatever decision I make.

I don't want any further power handed to faceless beaurocrats in Brussels and I'm happy with the depth of integration we have right now. I also don't want to live in an EU where everything we get, as appears to be the case now, is based on completely intanigible factors like "goodwill" and our perceived "credibility", things that can be used to bully and manipulate us into a certain course of action. I want a transparent and accountable EU where we don't need to be constantly accruing "brownie points" with large EU members in order to get whatever it is we are looking for.

Darragh29

My name is Mud wrote: »

You should really protest at the dipshits that voted for FF then...unless you were a FF voter...and protest against yourself?

The next opportunity I'll have to vote against this government is the next Lisbon referendum. I don't like this government and neither does the rest of the country it would appear. Do you think if we asked them to re-run the general election last year, maybe early next year, because we have obviously made a mistake, do you think they would run that election again!?!?!?!?!

No, well when they will, come back to me on Lisbon, until they do, I'll be voting them out at the next Lisbon referendum... If Lisbon is rejected again, this government is gone, so it's time to sort out our own back garden before we go trying to sort out Europe...