Lisbon 2: prepare to bend over and recieve ur destiny!

Sam Vimes

Jimpsta wrote: »

If you are the kind of person who supports restriction of websites or in fact would support an internet where only government approved websites are allowed to exist then you, my enemy, would be better off leaving this thread and actually fulfill your own empty threats which you place upon yourself.

It seems you want the wrath of someone to dictate to you, whether it be yourself or someone else.

EDIT - Or - Maybe you dont support it... If you dont then dis-regard the above post

have a read of this thread from only a few days ago while i was also posting in this thread:
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055441248

where i said that rape jokes should be allowed because i hate the idea of someone else's sense of morality being forced on people. see this post where i quote Voltaire saying "I don’t agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". i also mentioned a campaign by Rowan Atkinson against a new religious hatred law.

you're entitled to vote whatever way you want and i would never try to prevent you but equally i have a right to argue with people who want to vote a certain way and say their reasons for doing so are stupid (with supporting comments and evidence of course)


Fail tbh

Darragh29

briantwin wrote: »

I think that people being nthe stubbourn crettins they are willo vote No again even after all of the concessions and legally binding assurances just because they'd hate to be proven wrong. People voting no to piss off the government are the worst kind of fool. Talk about cutting off the nose to spite the face. As far as im concerned this should never have gone to a referendum in the first place, if the was Ireland building nuclear weapons or something of the like it would not be put to your typical potato munching irish people. Some decisions have to be made on our behalf.

Does anyone have any genuine reasons to vote no that you havent memorised off a Libertas flyer?

This whole debate is academic now. The most fundamental thing here is that we are not allowed say no to this. If we have to hit the nuclear button on this whole EU accountability thing, in order to fix the problem, then so be it!

Some people (I am one of them), will be voting no in an effort to bring forward a general election that will most likely follow if we throw this out a second time. Sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards and this treaty musn't be important enough for our government to risk losing it over in order to stay in power. They know f*cking well that people will be voting no on Lisbon in an effort to get them out, so if they feel that strongly about Lisbon, why don't they call a general election now and let us have our say and thereby doing the patriotic thing according to themselves and giving Lisbon the best possible chances of ratification???

i57dwun4yb1pt8

briantwin wrote: »

I think that people being nthe stubbourn crettins they are willo vote No again even after all of the concessions and legally binding assurances just because they'd hate to be proven wrong. People voting no to piss off the government are the worst kind of fool. Talk about cutting off the nose to spite the face. As far as im concerned this should never have gone to a referendum in the first place, if the was Ireland building nuclear weapons or something of the like it would not be put to your typical potato munching irish people. Some decisions have to be made on our behalf.

Does anyone have any genuine reasons to vote no that you havent memorised off a Libertas flyer?

fools like us are protecting ourselves from the sheeple like you .
" decisions made on our behalf " - christ almighty .
I dont want to piss of the government - I want them GONE .
I couldnt give a fcuk if they are pissed off or not.

Sam Vimes

DaDumTish wrote: »

fools like us are protecting ourselves from the sheeple like you .
" decisions made on our behalf " - christ almighty .
I dont want to piss of the government - I want them GONE .
I couldnt give a fcuk if they are pissed off or not.

must resist urge to point out that lisbon has nothing to do with a general election and will not cause one whether you vote yes, no or atari jaguar...........

i57dwun4yb1pt8

well then you do not have a clue about human nature .

walshb

briantwin wrote: »

I think that people being nthe stubbourn crettins they are willo vote No again even after all of the concessions and legally binding assurances just because they'd hate to be proven wrong. People voting no to piss off the government are the worst kind of fool. Talk about cutting off the nose to spite the face. As far as im concerned this should never have gone to a referendum in the first place, if the was Ireland building nuclear weapons or something of the like it would not be put to your typical potato munching irish people. Some decisions have to be made on our behalf.

Does anyone have any genuine reasons to vote no that you havent memorised off a Libertas flyer?

Look, your POST reeks of a person with no principles or backbone.

whatisayis

In the corporate world there is a certain percentage of people who will always agree with their boss. If they are asked for their opinion on a subject by the boss, they just repeat what the boss has already said.
Most successful business people can spot these employees and, while allowing their ego to be temporarily massaged, will then ask for the opinion of those who they know have actually researched a subject and come up with their own opinion.
Colloquially the former are known as 'Yes Men'.

Darragh29

Sam Vimes wrote: »

must resist urge to point out that lisbon has nothing to do with a general election and will not cause one whether you vote yes, no or atari jaguar...........

Don't agree.

Sam Vimes

DaDumTish wrote: »

well then you do not have a clue about human nature .

oh right so i'll be expecting your psychology degree to be faxed to me.

think about it this way: you want lisbon to fail because you think it'll make the government look bad and be kicked out. but as you've already admitted fianna fail won't resign and people have voted for them through crisis after crisis after badly handled crisis. if people dying in a collapsing health system doesn't change people's minds why do you think a treaty proposed by a separate body will?

the reality is that however bad you want the government to look, that's how bad you're making ireland look in europe

Sam Vimes

btw i don't want people to get the impression that i'm a fianna fail apologiser. i despise them and want them gone just as much as you. i can just tell the difference between a general election and a european referendum

Darragh29

Sam Vimes wrote: »

the reality is that however bad you want the government to look, that's how bad you're making ireland look in europe

This is my whole point, it shouldn't f*cking matter how we "look". We are an EU member, simple as that, some days we have good hair days and some days we don't! This whole pre-occupation with our "image" and our "place" in the EU is cringeworthy. Lisbon is in the bin, where is ought to be as per the rules. The sooner these idiots in Brussels stop throwing their rattlers out of the cot over it, the sooner we can come up with something legible and acceptable to the people who will ultimately have to be governed by this treaty...

thelordofcheese

walshb wrote: »

Look, your POST reeks of a person with no principles or backbone.

Because he understands the concept of representative democracy?

Darragh29

Sam Vimes wrote: »

btw i don't want people to get the impression that i'm a fianna fail apologiser. i despise them and want them gone just as much as you. i can just tell the difference between a general election and a european referendum

And sometimes one precedes the other. It might not in theory get rid of FF but it will be another string to the bow that will ultimately get us rid of this f*cking calamity of a government that is hanging over this country.

badabinbadaboom

justcallmetex wrote: »

Trying to make a link between voting no and being a conspiracy nut are we? Keep saying it enough and a few morons might start to believe you. You did not vote no last time round your a Yes man to the bone

Not trying to make that link at all. And I did indeed vote NO and am still considering voting NO.
I have yet to fully make my mind up this time, please tell me what are your reasons to vote no.

EDIT actually dont bother Ill just look over your old posts.

Sam Vimes

Darragh29 wrote: »

This is my whole point, it shouldn't f*cking matter how we "look". We are an EU member, simple as that, some days we have good hair days and some days we don't! This whole pre-occupation with our "image" and our "place" in the EU is cringeworthy. Lisbon is in the bin, where is ought to be as per the rules. The sooner these idiots in Brussels stop throwing their rattlers out of the cot over it, the sooner we can come up with something legible and acceptable to the people who will ultimately have to be governed by this treaty...

well i really hope you're right about it not mattering how we look because right now we look like the people who took their money for 30 years and are now irrationally voting no to everything without being able to give any reason other than we have domestic issues that have nothing to do with them. we're basically like the anoying guy in the office who borrows your stuff and never returns it, then when everyone wants to go to a particular restaurant at lunch he throws a hissy fit because he's having marriage problems and thinks that has something to do with the restaurant they want to go to

what would be acceptable to the people? nobody can give me something in the treaty that they disagree with so what exactly do you want them to do?

it seems to me that the only way this treaty will ever pass is if an artlicle is inserted requiring fianna fail to step down if it passes. nobody seems to give a sh*t about the treaty, they just don't like fianna fail

walshb

whatisayis wrote: »

In the corporate world there is a certain percentage of people who will always agree with their boss. If they are asked for their opinion on a subject by the boss, they just repeat what the boss has already said.
Most successful business people can spot these employees and, while allowing their ego to be temporarily massaged, will then ask for the opinion of those who they know have actually researched a subject and come up with their own opinion.
Colloquially the former are known as 'Yes Men'.

Perfect term for this. I was going to use it too!

YES men in a YES world!

badabinbadaboom

Sam Vimes wrote: »

it seems to me that the only way this treaty will ever pass is if an artlicle is inserted requiring fianna fail to step down if it passes. nobody seems to give a sh*t about the treaty, they just don't like fianna fail

Which is what makes the conspiracy theorist in my head think fianna fail somehow rigged the vote.

Welcome back also, but why do you even bother?

thelordofcheese

whatisayis wrote: »

In the corporate world there is a certain percentage of people who will always agree with their boss. If they are asked for their opinion on a subject by the boss, they just repeat what the boss has already said.
Most successful business people can spot these employees and, while allowing their ego to be temporarily massaged, will then ask for the opinion of those who they know have actually researched a subject and come up with their own opinion.
Colloquially the former are known as 'Yes Men'.

So, they're asking Yes voters?

Darragh29

Sam Vimes wrote: »

well i really hope you're right about it not mattering how we look because right now we look like the people who took their money for 30 years and are now irrationally voting no to everything without being able to give any reason other than we have domestic issues that have nothing to do with them. we're basically like the anoying guy in the office who borrows your stuff and never returns it, then gets pissed off when everyone wants to go to a particular restaurant at lunch but he throws a hissy fit because he's having marriage problems and thinks that has somethign to do with the restaurant they want to go to

what would be acceptable to the people? nobody can give me something in the treaty that they disagree with so what exactly do you want them to do?

it seems to me that the only way this treaty will ever pass is if an artlicle is inserted requiring fianna fail to step down if it passes. nobody seems to give a sh*t about the treaty, they just don't like fianna fail

There is a huge amount of distrust in relation to this treaty. The fact that it is so unreadable, coupled with the fact that we had a remark made by Valerie D'Estang regarding this treaty being deliberately designed in such a way as to hide proposals within it. There has been no explanation of this remark that I am aware of.

You can go down to any Easons outlet and by a copy of our constitution and read and also understand it over two mugs of coffee. Why is this treaty so utterly unreadable??? What on earth is the problem with a legible and readable document???

Our nearest neighbour, the UK, decided to opt out of the Euro, no big deal, we all respected their decision and went on with the Euro ourselves. If they want to take on the Euro, we'll be happy to accept them into the Eurozone.

Darragh29

Sam Vimes wrote: »

well i really hope you're right about it not mattering how we look because right now we look like the people who took their money for 30 years and are now irrationally voting no to everything without being able to give any reason other than we have domestic issues that have nothing to do with them.

Yes and we opened up our hugely valuable fishing stocks to them. Now we are net EU contributors. Some of the countries that are apparently annoyed with us rejecting Lisbon are not even in the EU p*ssing time...

badabinbadaboom

Can someone please tell me what part of our constitution will be altered if we vote Yes?
Seriously I dont even know this.

badabinbadaboom

Darragh29 wrote: »

Yes and we opened up our hugely valuable fishing stocks to them. Now we are net EU contributors. Some of the countries that are apparently annoyed with us rejecting Lisbon are not even in the EU p*ssing time...

Irish fishermen have even began registering there boats in France so they can catch more fish in IRISH waters. Thats just stupid.
Every Fishing community on this Island is going to vote no, we can use this this referendum as a bit of leverage to get what we want. We hold up EU progress until we get what we want.

Thank you Im back on the no side now

Sam Vimes

Darragh29 wrote: »

There is a huge amount of distrust in relation to this treaty. The fact that it is so unreadable, coupled with the fact that we had a remark made by Valerie D'Estang regarding this treaty being deliberately designed in such a way as to hide proposals within it. There has been no explanation of this remark that I am aware of.

You can go down to any Easons outlet and by a copy of our constitution and read and also understand it over two mugs of coffee. Why is this treaty so utterly unreadable??? What on earth is the problem with a legible and readable document???

The treaty is difficult to read because it combines three previous treaties into one and tries to legally cover everything and keep 27 countries happy. It's a difficult task and i'm sure people did their best. I have heard that comment and i haven't heard an explanation of it either. But he's one man and thousands of legal experts from all 27 countries have gone through the treaty with a fine tooth comb. And with all that research, the only thing anyone has been able to present as bad in the treaty turned out to be lies

they probably could make it more readable and simpler (lisbon for dummies if you will) but then it couldn't possibly cover as many eventualities as the current one and we'd end up having to do it all again in a few years.

Darragh29 wrote: »

Our nearest neighbour, the UK, decided to opt out of the Euro, no big deal, we all respected their decision and went on with the Euro ourselves. If they want to take on the Euro, we'll be happy to accept them into the Eurozone.

In fairness that's completely different. This is not something you can opt out of

Darragh29 wrote: »

Yes and we opened up our hugely valuable fishing stocks to them. Now we are net EU contributors. Some of the countries that are apparently annoyed with us rejecting Lisbon are not even in the EU p*ssing time...

Firstly i like being an engineer and don't particularly want to be a fisherman. And i don't think i'm alone in that since we never exploited that resource ourselves. Secondly, that's another argument against eu membership and not lisbon.

Sam Vimes

badabinbadaboom wrote: »

Irish fishermen have even began registering there boats in France so they can catch more fish in IRISH waters. Thats just stupid.
Every Fishing community on this Island is going to vote no, we can use this this referendum as a bit of leverage to get what we want. We hold up EU progress until we get what we want.

Thank you Im back on the no side now

Has there been any indication that voting no might bring any closer to a solution to that problem?

tolosenc

If this fails because of a no and, as unlikely as it may be that it would cause a government to fall, the government falls, I'll go out and campaign for FF, out of spite for idiots like some of you.

Sam Vimes

obl wrote: »

If this fails because of a no and, as unlikely as it may be that it would cause a government to fall, the government falls, I'll go out and campaign for FF, out of spite for idiots like some of you.

Thank god you won't have to do that because a no vote has as much chance of getting rid of fianna fail as it does of getting rid of gordon brown

badabinbadaboom

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Has there been any indication that voting no might bring any closer to a solution to that problem?

well actually now that i think of it no, they will just move on without us and keep raping our waters.

Sam Vimes

badabinbadaboom wrote: »

well actually now that i think of it no, they will just move on without us and keep raping our waters.

Right so if you don't like that, propose a referendum to get ireland to leave the eu.

But remember, before you do that you'll have to vote yes to lisbon because currently we can't leave the eu and lisbon gives us that ability :P

badabinbadaboom

I know which is what has me on the fence

badabinbadaboom wrote: »

Can someone please tell me what part of our constitution will be altered if we vote Yes?
Seriously I dont even know this.

Come on, i honestly dont know where this written.

Sam Vimes

badabinbadaboom wrote: »

Come on, i honestly dont know where this written.

afaik they're just going to add an article saying we accepted lisbon. We're not changing as such, just adding to it. I'd be open to correction on that though

Edit:i'm pretty sure it says how it's changing on either www.lisbontreaty2008.ie or www.yestolisbon.ie but i'm posting on a phone at the moment so i'm not going to check