Lisbon 2: prepare to bend over and recieve ur destiny!

Ronan|Raven

A yes vote is a vote for abortion!!!111111

I wish people who held this view as fact were aborted...

ShooterSF

Ronan|Raven wrote: »

A yes vote is a vote for abortion!!!111111

I wish people who held this view were aborted...

it is pretty bad. Though maybe they had a point now the government has gone back to the EU and demanded reassurances it wont happen (thats sarcasm by the way...)
Atleast with these "reassurances" we can reject the treaty and not have to listen about some yes voters accusing us of believing crap.

An Fear Aniar

At least the Irish people get to have a say in their futures:

http://www.iwantareferendum.com/whobacksareferendum.aspx

Vote NO until everyone in Europe is given the right to decide their own futures.

Why are the political elites trying to force this treaty on us? Because they think they know best?

The 2005 Labour manifesto said: “The new Constitutional Treaty ensures the new Europe can work effectively… We will put it to the British people in a referendum.”

During the run up to the election Gordon Brown said: "It's not as though this is being imposed on the country. People will have the chance to put their views." (26 January 2005)

According to opinion polls, 83% of Labour voters want a referendum (ICM June 2007)

.

Highsider

Ronan|Raven wrote: »

A yes vote is a vote for abortion!!!111111

I wish people who held this view as fact were aborted...

Thought there was some truth in that myself

Davidius

I ****ing knew it.

The Nazis won the war.

I absolutely ****ing new it.

Godwin's law FTW

dead air

Darragh29 wrote: »

And why are you voting yes???

A few reasons...

Trying to rebuild Ireland's reputation in Europe. A few years ago Ireland was the toast of Europe around the time we held the rotating presidency (actually playing a huge part in negotiating the treaty). We are now seen as a selfish brat, throwing a hissy fit because things are going our way.

With a Yes vote in Lisbon round I, we were given assurances on our neutrality and tax veto.

In fact, our constitution already provides for Ireland to opt out of any common defence policy, and as that part of our constitution is not being altered, I can't see how our neutrality can be eroded.

Losing a permanent Commissioner was the only problem I have with the treaty but this affects every other member state also. It seems to me to be a reasonable solution to having too many commissioners with a limited amount of portfolios. The new arrangements provide for each country to nominate a commissioner for every 2 of 3 terms, so all countries are equal in this regard.

The thing is, there's no real major advantages or selling point to ratifying the treaty. I'm voting yes (again) partly because I don't trust the likes of Declan Ganly, Coir, the assorted random collection of socialists et al. Also because of all the issues raised by the No campaign just appear to be totally exaggerated or false. Abortion? Military conscription? Come on now...

Darragh29

dead air wrote: »

A few reasons...

Trying to rebuild Ireland's reputation in Europe. A few years ago Ireland was the toast of Europe around the time we held the rotating presidency (actually playing a huge part in negotiating the treaty). We are now seen as a selfish brat, throwing a hissy fit because things are going our way.

With a Yes vote in Lisbon round I, we were given assurances on our neutrality and tax veto.

In fact, our constitution already provides for Ireland to opt out of any common defence policy, and as that part of our constitution is not being altered, I can't see how our neutrality can be eroded.

Losing a permanent Commissioner was the only problem I have with the treaty but this affects every other member state also. It seems to me to be a reasonable solution to having too many commissioners with a limited amount of portfolios. The new arrangements provide for each country to nominate a commissioner for every 2 of 3 terms, so all countries are equal in this regard.

The thing is, there's no real major advantages or selling point to ratifying the treaty. I'm voting yes (again) partly because I don't trust the likes of Declan Ganly, Coir, the assorted random collection of socialists et al. Also because of all the issues raised by the No campaign just appear to be totally exaggerated or false. Abortion? Military conscription? Come on now...

Most of what you've posted above seems to be based on a fear of what will happen to us if we vote no, rather than any real substantive argument being made for voting yes.

If there is any party in all of this that I don't trust, it's the party that has for the second time, refused to accept our democratic decision. There is no point in being rich if you are not free. This notion of ,"Jasus lads, we better not upset them or they'll take out the wooden spoon to us", this is what we are actually dealing with now with Brussels, "Do this, OR ELSE"!!!

dead air

Darragh29 wrote: »

Most of what you've posted above seems to be based on a fear of what will happen to us if we vote no, rather than any real substantive argument being made for voting yes.

If there is any party in all of this that I don't trust, it's the party that has for the second time, refused to accept our democratic decision. There is no point in being rich if you are not free. This notion of ,"Jasus lads, we better not upset them or they'll take out the wooden spoon to us", this is what we are actually dealing with now with Brussels, "Do this, OR ELSE"!!!

That's fair enough, I see why you would think that but that's not the case. If Ireland votes No (and I honestly don't know how the second referendum will pan out), I will be disappointed. Admittedly, I do fear that a second Irish rejection will remove Ireland from, as the say, "the heart of Europe". I am voting Yes based on what I have read on the treaty.

At the same time, I refuse to be upset or intimated by any European politician that shouts down the original Irish decision. I consider myself just as European as the rest of them that live on the continent. Again, I'm voting yes for reasons that make logical sense to me and not because our elected elite in this country and in Europe tell us that we have to.

I'd encourage undecided people to vote with the facts, not the hype.

mikemac

Long thread so maybe it was posted already.

Voting no to show your disgust with the government is ridiculous. Plus the main opposition parties campaigned for a Yes vote so you're achieving nothing.

Vote on the issues and if you don't understand the damn thing, then ask here or the boards EU forum or the referendum commission or anyone you want.

But if you want to kick the government then use the local elections and don't hijack this referendum

Ckal

micmclo wrote: »

Long thread so maybe it was posted already.

Voting no to show your disgust with the government is ridiculous. Plus the main opposition parties campaigned for a Yes vote so you're achieving nothing.

Vote on the issues and if you don't understand the damn thing, then ask here or the boards EU forum or the referendum commission or anyone you want.

But if you want to kick the government then use the local elections and don't hijack this referendum

Voting yes because you hate Sinn Fein and voting yes because you like Fianna Fail is hijacking the referendum, too. There are always two sides to things like this. I'm sure some yes voters voted yes because they like FF but never read the treaty.

You have a no voter saying "I voted no because I didn't understand what it was about. And I'm not ready to agree to something that I have no knowledge of"
And you have your Yes voter saying "I voted yes because Fianna Fail have done great things for this country and I back them 100% in everything."

AT LEAST the no voter referred back to the treaty, unlike the Yes voter, who did not. (Both statements above were two reasons I heard from both sides, btw)

I think it's time the "Bash the No-Voters!" game died because it's clearly a **** game and it's going nowhere.

mikemac

well yes, both sides had voters hijacking Lisbon 1 for their own views on Irish political parties.
I never posted it was only the No side doing this

As I said, vote on the issues and ask if you don't understand it

arse..biscuits

humanji wrote: »

Ok people, I know this is going to fall on deaf ears, but 28% of the population voted no. And a portion of that admitted to not voting on what was actually in the treaty. How is following the will of an ill-informed minority democratic? Think about it. If nobody except for 2 people actually managed to vote last time, and they voted yes because they thought it was about ice-cream, would you honestly want to honour that vote?

Why not actually read the treaty (it's honestly not that hard, I managed it FFS, and I'm thick as pig shìt!) and deciding what's best for you? What's the worst that can happen? Sure if the treaty is really that bad for everyone, it'll be a no vote again. One day out of your life isn't going to make that much of a difference.

And if there had been a YES vote last time by ill-informed people would we be voting again? Hell no.

Ckal

micmclo wrote: »

well yes, both sides had voters hijacking Lisbon 1 for their own views on Irish political parties.
I never posted it was only the No side doing this

Oh, I know. I was just saying it, just in case others thought differently.

dresden8

niceirishfella wrote: »

And why do you have such interest in our discussions on this treaty debate from your UK base?

Because he wasn't allowed have a discussion or debate in his UK base so he has to use ours.

Keith186

walshb wrote: »

a certain way, just because the govt is being dictated to by the EU

Had some other countries had the vote, the feeling is that a lot would
also have voted NO!

There'll be plenty more dictating to the gov if they get the yes vote.

Hands up who wants bureaucrats in charge that aren't answerable to the public? That's what you'll get with a yes vote.

On the other hand they can't be worse than the shower that are in charge of us at the moment...

Darragh29

micmclo wrote: »

Long thread so maybe it was posted already.

Voting no to show your disgust with the government is ridiculous. Plus the main opposition parties campaigned for a Yes vote so you're achieving nothing.

Vote on the issues and if you don't understand the damn thing, then ask here or the boards EU forum or the referendum commission or anyone you want.

But if you want to kick the government then use the local elections and don't hijack this referendum

Someone can vote no for any reason or for no reason at all. That is the way voting works. For example, I can decide to take issue with your view here telling people to either vote yes or else stay in bed and I can decide to vote no as a protest against that view if I wish and that's my right...

Yes voters on the last occasion were probably responsible for more people voting no than anything else. They came across as ignorant, superior, BMW driving, Terenure living, idiots who just didn't want their little gravy train interfered with, telling anyone who was voting no that they should stay in bed and stay out of the debate as it was obviously above their level of intellect...

Biggins

What your going to get also is a lot of folk voting "NO" because they will realise that if Ireland votes again that way, the chances of Cowan staying in power after that will be extreamly slim.

I'm NOT saying thats the right thing to do but being honest, thats the way some minds will look at the situation.
I mention this because those that are sure the "Yes" this time will get their way, they better not place any money bets on it!

There's still a chance it could go either way...

dead air

Keith186 wrote: »

Hands up who wants bureaucrats in charge that aren't answerable to the public? That's what you'll get with a yes vote.

Can you explain how this would happen?

embee

In all honesty, I think that, if we are asked to vote again on the Lisbon Treaty I'll just abstain.

The people have said no. The EU aren't going to make sweeping changes to Lisbon because it may involve having to get it ratified again in all of the other member states. We've said no. Unless it changes hugely, what's the point in voting on it again? I know that Nice was turned around because of an initial low voter turnout, but that wasn't the case with Lisbon.

I just am not comfortable with being railroaded into voting yes because the current Government wants us too, so I will abstain.

Darragh29

Biggins wrote: »

What your going to get also is a lot of folk voting "NO" because they will realise that if Ireland votes again that way, the chances of Cowan staying in power after that will be extreamly slim.

I'm NOT saying thats the right thing to do but being honest, thats the way some minds will look at the situation.
I mention this because those that are sure the "Yes" this time will get their way, they better not place any money bets on it!

There's still a chance it could go either way...

Cowen won't be in power for the next referendum I reckon. He'll be lucky if he see's Valentines Day as Taoiseacht...

Darragh29

embee wrote: »

In all honesty, I think that, if we are asked to vote again on the Lisbon Treaty I'll just abstain.

The people have said no. The EU aren't going to make sweeping changes to Lisbon because it may involve having to get it ratified again in all of the other member states. We've said no. Unless it changes hugely, what's the point in voting on it again? I know that Nice was turned around because of an initial low voter turnout, but that wasn't the case with Lisbon.

I just am not comfortable with being railroaded into voting yes because the current Government wants us too, so I will abstain.

Well abstaining is just fawning off the decision to other people who will vote. I've never abstained for any election ever, one thing I always do is vote.

dead air

Darragh29 wrote: »

Yes voters on the last occasion were probably responsible for more people voting no than anything else. They came across as ignorant, superior, BMW driving, Terenure living, idiots who just didn't want their little gravy train interfered with, telling anyone who was voting no that they should stay in bed and stay out of the debate as it was obviously above their level of intellect...

That's ridiculous. This may be your personal view but can you really say the Irish people voted No for the sake of one-upmanship?

I believe, and I think most people would agree, that Irish people voted No for genuine fears over Irish neutrality, abortion, tax isssues and losing a commissioner.

ShooterSF

dead air wrote: »

That's ridiculous. This may be your personal view but can you really say the Irish people voted No for the sake of one-upmanship?

I believe, and I think most people would agree, that Irish people voted No for genuine fears over Irish neutrality, abortion, tax isssues and losing a commissioner.

The quote in question was OTT. But, on the other hand you unconsciously yourself play the "low intellect no voter" card he reffered. I didnt vote No over non issues that you listed, most of which had nothing to do with the treaty. I think a lot of other No voters didnt either.

Darragh29

dead air wrote: »

That's ridiculous. This may be your personal view but can you really say the Irish people voted No for the sake of one-upmanship?

I believe, and I think most people would agree, that Irish people voted No for genuine fears over Irish neutrality, abortion, tax isssues and losing a commissioner.

Yes but I also felt that yes voters on the radio and generally all over the media were making out that anyone who was voting no basically either didn't know what they were talking about or else were all left wing loony's. I was as educated on Lisbon as any yes voter, but it didn't sit right with me. The following comments:

“Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly … All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way.”
- Former French President V.Giscard D’Estaing, Le Monde, 14 June 2007.

That were associated with the yes side, made me extremely cynical of a treaty that it would appear, based on the above, was made inordinately complicated specifically so that it could not be specifically interpreted in any particular way.

The carry on from the yes side on the last occasion made me more determined to vote no and I have no problem admitting that. How dare any person tell me if I don't agree with them, then I have no business voting at all...

OPENROAD

dead air wrote: »

I believe, and I think most people would agree, that Irish people voted No for genuine fears over Irish neutrality, abortion, tax isssues and losing a commissioner.

I also believe people voted no because they were concerned by the expansion of the EU and influx of immigrants ( not my views/concern)

PrivateEye

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6abZudYWJ5k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aBaX9GPSaQ

The words 'epic' and 'fail' are coming to mind already to be honest...

dead air

ShooterSF wrote: »

The quote in question was OTT. But, on the other hand you unconsciously yourself play the "low intellect no voter" card he reffered. I didnt vote No over non issues that you listed, most of which had nothing to do with the treaty. I think a lot of other No voters didnt either.

I certainly don't mean to suggest that No voters were low intellect and I honestly do not believe that. Perhaps misguided, yes. Of course, the opposite is true, you have every right to think of me as misguided.

dead air

OPENROAD wrote: »

I also believe people voted no because they were concerned by the expansion of the EU and influx of immigrants ( not my views/concern)

Absolutely true.

imeddyhobbs

is there a poll here anywhere?

embee

Darragh29 wrote: »

Well abstaining is just fawning off the decision to other people who will vote. I've never abstained for any election ever, one thing I always do is vote.

I've always voted too, but if they push us into another referendum on the same issue, then I'll abstain. Its a personal decision, I can't imagine many people will, but it's my own choice. The people have said no. This isn't like Nice, where a poor turnout was turned around when we voted a second time. I read the Treaty before I voted, it isn't that I was ill-informed, and for the Government to turn around and tell us that the majority vote isn't acceptable smacks of pure arrogance.

OPENROAD

I can see Lisbon 2 being passed easily, not necessary due to anything new in/out of the treaty or guarantees rather because of the downturn in the economy and peoples view that it is better to have the EU on side with us.

Darragh29

embee wrote: »

I've always voted too, but if they push us into another referendum on the same issue, then I'll abstain. Its a personal decision, I can't imagine many people will, but it's my own choice. The people have said no. This isn't like Nice, where a poor turnout was turned around when we voted a second time. I read the Treaty before I voted, it isn't that I was ill-informed, and for the Government to turn around and tell us that the majority vote isn't acceptable smacks of pure arrogance.

So basically the government have managed to bully you out of voting! :rolleyes:

anonymous_joe

It's a pity voting isn't a legal requirement in this country, so that we could have viable results in referanda and votes.

It's a pity that a lot of people are going to vote no out of spite now. :pac:

dead air

Darragh29 wrote: »

Yes but I also felt that yes voters on the radio and generally all over the media were making out that anyone who was voting no basically either didn't know what they were talking about or else were all left wing loony's. I was as educated on Lisbon as any yes voter, but it didn't sit right with me. The following comments:

“Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly … All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way.”
- Former French President V.Giscard D’Estaing, Le Monde, 14 June 2007.

That were associated with the yes side, made me extremely cynical of a treaty that it would appear, based on the above, was made inordinately complicated specifically so that it could not be specifically interpreted in any particular way.

The carry on from the yes side on the last occasion made me more determined to vote no and I have no problem admitting that. How dare any person tell me if I don't agree with them, then I have no business voting at all...

I agree with you on some of that. There are definitely elements of the Yes campaigners that were very condenscending.

anonymous_joe

dead air wrote: »

I agree with you on some of that. There are definitely elements of the Yes campaigners that were very condensing.

Dyou mean condescending or that they were condensed...?

tedstriker

If anyone voted NO because they had fears about abortion, neutrality, size of the EU, immigration, tax or a commissioner issue then they didn't take the time to read any actual facts. Every single one of these "issues" were clarified with ease and a failure to understand them was a failure on the voters part not the government.

The NO campaign was led by 2 entities. Firstly, Sinn Fein whose only agenda is for a United Ireland and a stronger EU will make that harder to achieve. The second was Libertas who have more than a few question marks over their heads. Declan Ganley of Libertas is a british national who is CEO of a US military defense contract company. He is an extremely wealthy businessman and his agenda has very little to do with issues of abortion etc.

All that aside there is one underlying point that has to be stated. In 2007 the population of Ireland voted in a new government. These people were voted into parliament in order to run the country and the only way to get back into government was to do a good job. If you are unsure of what the Lisbon treaty was about then listen to the people who you just voted for AND the opposition also were in agreement with little exception.

If it is a complex issue, which it is, then stop being so lazy to not learn. Take time to understand the issues properly then make a choice. If that choice is YES or NO then that is great because at least you will understand what you are voting for.

Darragh29

dead air wrote: »

I agree with you on some of that. There are definitely elements of the Yes campaigners that were very condensing.

I get the feeling now, that the same people who were pushing everyone to vote yes on Lisbon, were the very same people who voted for FF last time round. There is a section of Irish society that I have come to dispise in recent years, the condensing, smug BMW class, wearing fur coats with no knickers, who look down their noses at everyone else, usually own a few "investment" properties that are now keeping them awake at night, and it was this gang that I got sick of listening to during the last Lisbon debate.

"Vote yes, vote yes, look, you don't need to understand what it means, we just need you to vote yes"!

Biggins

OPENROAD wrote: »

I can see Lisbon 2 being passed easily, not necessary due to anything new in/out of the treaty or guarantees rather because of the downturn in the economy and peoples view that it is better to have the EU on side with us.

...whereas others can see it being defeated if only

a. To bring down Cowan and his useless cronies
b. To show that they will not be bullied or silenced by other countries leaders
c. To stop the tide of more unelectable faceless bureaucrats
d. To stop losing out own right to govern ourselves fully
e. To stand up for others in countries that weren't even allowed a vote or choice
f. To slow down the rushing thru of a vote before the British government changes. The conservatives have already stated that if the treaty is not passed by the time they get to power, they WILL have a national vote on it. Thus another major reason why this is being forced upon us again so quick.

I'm sure there is many other reasons but each side always thinks theirs is going to win and is fighting on the right side.

It just boils down now to the dirty tactics that each side will either use or be accused to using.

---

I'd hate to see anyone abstaining their vote, that just giving into the bullies.
Why the hell should the bullies win? Frak that!
As much as its a pain that its being shoved down our throats again
- go and re-vote and tell one side or the other where to stick it!

Don't be bullied out of your democratic and constitutional right! :mad:

imeddyhobbs

anonymous_joe wrote: »

It's a pity voting isn't a legal requirement in this country, so that we could have viable results in referanda and votes. :

welcome to democracy

Darragh29

tedstriker wrote: »

...If it is a complex issue, which it is, then stop being so lazy to not learn. Take time to understand the issues properly then make a choice. If that choice is YES or NO then that is great because at least you will understand what you are voting for.

To insist that a voter stick exclusively to the subject matter is to underestimate the intelligence of a human being. There is nothing at all wrong with me fully supporting Lisbon, but deciding to give the government a kick in the nuts when I get into the ballot box on the day of the referendum, and voting no. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with this, if this is what I decide to do! As a voter, I am infallible. No decision I make can be wrong.

anonymous_joe

Darragh29 wrote: »

To insist that a voter stick exclusively to the subject matter is to underestimate the intelligence of a human being. There is nothing at all wrong with me fully supporting Lisbon, but deciding to give the government a kick in the nuts when I get into the ballot box on the day of the referendum, and voting no. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with this, if this is what I decide to do! As a voter, I am infallible. No decision I make can be wrong.

I'd disagree...

I'd have said you should always vote on what's in front of you and nothing else.

badabinbadaboom

To those who voted yes.
Come down off your high horses and have a look around at whats actually going on in this country. Peoples livelihoods are being destroyed by EU regulations and agreements. Even if people could understand the treaty we still would have voted no because we are simply sick of Europe.
I read the treaty and gethered that all it was, was way to clean up the inner runnings of the EU, but I still voted NO because the EU has done nothing for me personally and I would rather this state was on its own with a GOOD government.
Look at Norway FFS
and Iceland.......Oh wait:p

Darragh29

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I'd disagree...

I'd have said you should always vote on what's in front of you and nothing else.

You can disagree, but that's about it!

I've decided to treat Lisbon II as a mechanism to get this absolutely fu*king USELESS government out of office.

tedstriker

Darragh29 wrote: »

To insist that a voter stick exclusively to the subject matter is to underestimate the intelligence of a human being. There is nothing at all wrong with me fully supporting Lisbon, but deciding to give the government a kick in the nuts when I get into the ballot box on the day of the referendum, and voting no. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with this, if this is what I decide to do! As a voter, I am infallible. No decision I make can be wrong.

No decision you make can be wrong but your decision can be made for the wrong reasons and as a result impact on everyone else.. and the whole of europe for that matter.
It's cutting off your nose to spite your face. Also, there are easier ways to overthrow the government. The problem is also that the opposition want a YES vote so where does that leave you. Spoil your vote if you want to make a point, write a letter to make a point, organise a rally, run for election...

imeddyhobbs

I 'm sick is people saying that we gave/give nothing to the EU,Irish fishing waters have contributed billions of €uro to this power block thru our waters,by the way,Icelands waters are the best bargaining tool for this 3rd world country to gain access to the EU,every country has to have something to offer.

Darragh29

tedstriker wrote: »

No decision you make can be wrong but your decision can be made for the wrong reasons and as a result impact on everyone else.. and the whole of europe for that matter.
It's cutting off your nose to spite your face. Also, there are easier ways to overthrow the government. The problem is also that the opposition want a YES vote so where does that leave you. Spoil your vote if you want to make a point, write a letter to make a point, organise a rally, run for election...

Nah, I think I'll just stick to voting no on the next occasion, I think this would be a more effective...

Even if I was generally happy with the government, I'd still be voting no because I dont accept that our democratic decision has been proerly respected on the last occasion.

skelliser

Now with added poll goodness!

anonymous_joe

badabinbadaboom wrote: »

To those who voted yes.
Come down off your high horses and have a look around at whats actually going on in this country. Peoples livelihoods are being destroyed by EU regulations and agreements. Even if people could understand the treaty we still would have voted no because we are simply sick of Europe.
I read the treaty and gethered that all it was, was way to clean up the inner runnings of the EU, but I still voted NO because the EU has done nothing for me personally and I would rather this state was on its own with a GOOD government.
Look at Norway FFS
and Iceland.......Oh wait:p

Norway has oil income. That's why they didn't join. As far as I know they'll probably join as soon as they run out of oil.

Darragh29 wrote: »

You can disagree, but that's about it!

I've decided to treat Lisbon II as a mechanism to get this absolutely fu*king USELESS government out of office.

I didn't vote for them, so that's my work done. :pac:

Ah well, hope the people who voted for Biffo and co are happy. ^^

imeddyhobbs

Darragh29 wrote: »

You can disagree, but that's about it!

I've decided to treat Lisbon II as a mechanism to get this absolutely fu*king USELESS government out of office.

People like you give the "no" campain a bad name

Vote no

humanji

This enire threat shows how little people care for this country. Voting yes or no, out of spite or apathy is disgusting. Vote as you please, we're all f*cked as long as Irelands listens to the people..