Lisbon 2: prepare to bend over and recieve ur destiny!

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I'm so bored of this thread

You and me both

BigEejit

we are all doomed! dooommed ... DOOMED

But really, some of the guys I work with in London are hoping that Ireland says no again because:

1) They didnt get to vote on it
2) There was no discussion, no dissection of the treaty (like you guys are doing here) They are looking at Irish media and sites (like this one) to find out what the small print on the treaty is because in the UK they got a 4 point bulletpoint slide on page 15 of the paper.
3) Makes them feel that they will have less say in the EU

kowloon

I'm not sure I care much about this anymore. I can't be objective when I have such utter hatred for our leadership.

Valmont

I for one, would like to acknowledge Sam Vimes heroic patience with this thread. Himself and a few other posters certainly opened my eyes as to why I'll vote yes next time around. The people arguing for no are just talking out their arses, even a political lightweight like myself can see that.

Sam Vimes

Valmont wrote: »

I for one, would like to acknowledge Sam Vimes heroic patience with this thread. Himself and a few other posters certainly opened my eyes as to why I'll vote yes next time around. The people arguing for no are just talking out their arses, even a political lightweight like myself can see that.

if i convinced even one person then it's all been worth it

K-9

Sam Vimes wrote: »

if i convinced even one person then it's all been worth it

Hopefully this thread will die now. No doubt we'll meet again going over the exact same points!

Sam Vimes

Seanies32 wrote: »

Hopefully this thread will die now. No doubt we'll meet again going over the exact same points!

see you there

twinytwo

Maybe sam vines or someone would like to address these points for me i really would like to hear the points of view..


It puts at risk our automatic right to a referendum on future changes to
existing treaties.

It gives the EU too much power and reduces our ability to stop decisions that are not in Ireland’s interests.

It gives 105 additional powers to the EU on issues such as international
relations, security, trade and economic policy. And in more than 60 of these areas we will lose our right to stop laws not in our national interest.

It creates an EU Foreign Minister and common defence and foreign policies,
and allows the EU to act on the international stage in the same way as a state and to speak on our behalf.

It erodes neutrality by drawing us into a common defence and obliging us to increase military spending.

It cuts our voting strength on the Council of Ministers by more than half.

It ends our automatic right to a Commissioner.

It seriously undermines workers rights and public services.

It mandates the EU to promote nuclear energy.

It undermines the EU’s commitment to tackling global poverty and
inequality.

Sam Vimes

twinytwo wrote: »

Maybe sam vines or someone would like to address these points for me i really would like to hear the points of view..


It puts at risk our automatic right to a referendum on future changes to
existing treaties.

It gives the EU too much power and reduces our ability to stop decisions that are not in Ireland’s interests.

It gives 105 additional powers to the EU on issues such as international
relations, security, trade and economic policy. And in more than 60 of these areas we will lose our right to stop laws not in our national interest.

It creates an EU Foreign Minister and common defence and foreign policies,
and allows the EU to act on the international stage in the same way as a state and to speak on our behalf.

It erodes neutrality by drawing us into a common defence and obliging us to increase military spending.

It cuts our voting strength on the Council of Ministers by more than half.

It ends our automatic right to a Commissioner.

It seriously undermines workers rights and public services.

It mandates the EU to promote nuclear energy.

It undermines the EU’s commitment to tackling global poverty and
inequality.

one third lies, one third half truths and one third who gives a crap and i'm not spending any time and effort responding to someone who just copied and pasted from sinn fein

twinytwo

Sam Vimes wrote: »

one third lies, one third half truths and one third who gives a crap and i'm not spending any time and effort responding to someone who just copied and pasted from sinn fein

thought so... please do [point out which ones are lies and which ones you dont give a crap about because i would ahve thought they well all important. What has sinn fein got to do with anything.

It puts at risk our automatic right to a referendum on future changes to
existing treaties. ... thats true

It gives the EU too much power and reduces our ability to stop decisions that are not in Ireland’s interests... thats true too

It gives 105 additional powers to the EU on issues such as international
relations, security, trade and economic policy. And in more than 60 of these areas we will lose our right to stop laws not in our national interest.... hmmmmm this one too

It creates an EU Foreign Minister and common defence and foreign policies,
and allows the EU to act on the international stage in the same way as a state and to speak on our behalf..... yup

It erodes neutrality by drawing us into a common defence and obliging us to increase military spending.... yup mil spending 3 fold

It cuts our voting strength on the Council of Ministers by more than half... last time i checked ya

It ends our automatic right to a Commissioner... for sure even we have been "promised" our commissioner ill believe it when i see it

It seriously undermines workers rights and public services... yes it does.. open markets etc allowing cheaper labour etc to be brought in

It mandates the EU to promote nuclear energy.... not to sure on this one ill accept if someone can prove otherwise

It undermines the EU’s commitment to tackling global poverty and
inequality.

Sam Vimes

twinytwo wrote: »

thought so

It's all been taken care of already dozens of times and i'd just get deja vu if i was to respond to it. Have a look through the thread

twinytwo

Sam Vimes wrote: »

It's all been taken care of already dozens of times and i'd just get deja vu if i was to respond to it. Have a look through the thread

So you saying that

no we dont lose our automatic right to a commisioner

we dont have to increase our mil spending

we dont enter into a defence policy

it dosent give extra powers to the eu

and that it dosent create anEU Foreign Minister and common defence and foreign policies

even though the treaty does say all these things

Sam Vimes

i had a few minutes so:

It puts at risk our automatic right to a referendum on future changes to
existing treaties.
Lie
It gives the EU too much power and reduces our ability to stop decisions that are not in Irelands interests.

subjective. What is too much power? How does it do that? A statement completely deviod of substance. Also it reduces everyone's power to stop decisions (not just ireland's) and only in the areas that are moving to qmv. Half truth

It gives 105 additional powers to the EU on issues such as international
relations, security, trade and economic policy. And in more than 60 of these areas we will lose our right to stop laws not in our national interest.

Firstly, so what and secondly we don't lose our right in any of those areas, some of them are moving to qmv. Lie

It creates an EU Foreign Minister and common defence and foreign policies,
and allows the EU to act on the international stage in the same way as a state and to speak on our behalf.

So?

It erodes neutrality by drawing us into a common defence and obliging us to increase military spending.

Lie. It does not erode neutrality in any way whatsoever

It cuts our voting strength on the Council of Ministers by more than half.

What article of the treaty does that and does it reduce everyone's? Or does it put it more in line with our population which would be more democratic?

It ends our automatic right to a Commissioner.

Lie

It seriously undermines workers rights and public services.

Bull****

It mandates the EU to promote nuclear energy.

So? We don't have to

It undermines the EUs commitment to tackling global poverty and
inequality.

Bull****

thebman

twinytwo wrote: »

So you saying that

no we dont lose our automatic right to a commisioner

we dont have to increase our mil spending

we dont enter into a defence policy

it dosent give extra powers to the eu

and that it dosent create anEU Foreign Minister and common defence and foreign policies

even though the treaty does say all these things

Read the bloody thread for the replies. Its been gone over already. A mod should lock this if this nonsense continues TBH.

The No side seems to like hitting a reset button on the argument and starting again. New poster, same sh*t.

twinytwo

thebman wrote: »

Read the bloody thread for the replies. Its been gone over already. A mod should lock this if this nonsense continues TBH.

The No side seems to like hitting a reset button on the argument and starting again. New poster, same sh*t.

Dont get you knicks in a twist....

Maybe if the no side got replys instead of lies and bs and being called insane, daft,blind..... etc etc etc

thebman

You didn't read the thread so how would you know?

Sam Vimes

twinytwo wrote: »

Dont get you knicks in a twist....

Maybe if the no side got replys instead of lies and bs and being called insane, daft,blind..... etc etc etc

There have been over 100 pages of replies, you just didn't bother to read them. And i'm afraid that no one on my side of the fence is telling lies mate, that's the no side's job. You just choose to believe their lies so it appears as if we're lying

I find people tend to shy away when asked to back up their claims about the evils of the treaty so now i ask you, instead of copying and pasting from the sinn fein website, point out the parts of the treaty that will do the things you say and explain to everyone's satisfaction how they will do these things. Bet ya can't :P

the-island-man

Anyone for putting the euro in the bin and going back to the punt? Less wealth in our economy but everybody would have jobs i suspect! Surely better than one half of the country working to pay the other halfs dole money!!

javaboy

the-island-man wrote: »

Anyone for putting the euro in the bin and going back to the punt? Less wealth in our economy but everybody would have jobs i suspect! Surely better than one half of the country working to pay the other halfs dole money!!

Why do you think switching from the Euro to the punt would mean everybody would have jobs?

the-island-man

The exchange rate with other currencies would be significantly weaker than the exchange rate with the euro! Therefore combined with our low corporate tax rate it would cost multinational companies a lot less to set up here and we would be competitive once more!
Not saying the idea hasn't got a lot of downsides but then again staying in the euro also has its downside!

WooPeeA

the-island-man wrote: »

Anyone for putting the euro in the bin and going back to the punt? Less wealth in our economy but everybody would have jobs i suspect! Surely better than one half of the country working to pay the other halfs dole money!!

Nobody will use pound on international stage so it's value would fall down like every other unneeded currency in Europe (ex. Iceland -60% in a year or British pound worth as much as euro now).

archplanner

Government didnt bother reading reports into Banks - we're expected to believe they know what the Lisbon Treaty is about - and that its good for the country!

the-island-man

Another reason why i have a feeling this treaty will not be passed!:D One word....trust! Does the majority of the country even trust anything that the coalition goverment says sorry fianna fail says! Greens don't seem to have a voice!
A tns/MRBI poll released today shows that labour are now ahead of fianna fail on popularity!
Surely this is an indicator that fianna fail no longer have a mandate from the people of ireland...... ELECTION!

thelordofcheese

the-island-man wrote: »

Another reason why i have a feeling this treaty will not be passed!:D One word....trust! Does the majority of the country even trust anything that the coalition government says sorry fianna fail says! Greens don't seem to have a voice!
A tns/MRBI poll released today shows that labour are now ahead of fianna fail on popularity!
Surely this is an indicator that fianna fail no longer have a mandate from the people of ireland...... ELECTION!

I'd like to think that the population of Ireland aren't such bunch of fickle, mush-brained simpletons that they'd vote on an such an important issue based on how much they like the current government.

the-island-man

thelordofcheese wrote: »

I'd like to think that the population of Ireland aren't such bunch of fickle, mush-brained simpletons that they'd vote on an such an important issue based on how much they like the current government.

True i don't think that would be good either! Its true that i detest the current goverment but i never said thats why i thought it wouldn't be passed if you read my post you'll see i mentioned the lack of trust as the reason! I feel that people don't trust our goverment and if people don't trust our domestic goverment why would they trust the european union?

Outkast_IRE

Im voting no just because its not democratic to say you voted wrong try again!!!!

Mrmoe

I think the yes side shoot themselves in the foot more often than not. Quiet often people who say they intend to vote no (even if this is the wrong choice) are labeled as being ignorant, stupid, blind etc. If you want to convince people and change their point of view you have to sweet talk them like you would a lover who would not sleep with you. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. The yes side held all the aces and it should and still should have been a walk over of a result for them.

ShooterSF

thelordofcheese wrote: »

I'd like to think that the population of Ireland aren't such bunch of fickle, mush-brained simpletons that they'd vote on an such an important issue based on how much they like the current government.

But it does hold some merit. These are the people who negotiated this treaty on our behalf and if they don't know what's in our best interests or we don't trust them to then that becomes an issue. Though I agree that it's not the strongest reason to vote.

thelordofcheese

the-island-man wrote: »

I feel that people don't trust our government and if people don't trust our domestic government why would they trust the European union?

Because they aren't the same thing? I don't get the comparison that you're trying to draw here.

I'm also surprised that people who will bray on and on about how corrupt/awful/smelly/fat/ugly/whatever the government is would then turn around and argue that the Irish government knowingly helped create a treaty that would, if passed, diminish their powers domestically. It really makes no sense. Then again, I've found very few No arguments that withstand the harsh light of reality.

Mrmoe wrote: »

I think the yes side shoot themselves in the foot more often than not. Quiet often people who say they intend to vote no (even if this is the wrong choice) are labeled as being ignorant, stupid, blind etc.

Because after a certain point there is nothing to gain from tolerating people being willfully ignorant on a topic as important as this. You might as well just call them window lickers and be done with it.

You can see it in this (very long) thread.
Person A asserts several things about the treaty that are, at best, half truths. Persons B,C and D then point out what's wrong. Person A sticks to their guns and then finds some new and equally wrong material. In the middle Persons E through to M will wander in and claim they're being bullied, or it's undemocratic, or they hate Brian cowen so they'll vote no.
Persons B and C will call them all a bunch of cretinous fuckwits and leave the thread. Person D is Sam Vimes who deserves a fucking medal at this stage.

Quite frankly it's often a waste of energy because people have come to believe that "that's my opinion" is the end of a discussion, not the beginning.

Valmont

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Person A asserts several things about the treaty that are, at best, half truths. Persons B,C and D then point out what's wrong. Person A sticks to their guns and then finds some new and equally wrong material. In the middle Persons E through to M will wander in and claim they're being bullied, or it's undemocratic, or they hate Brian cowen so they'll vote no.
Persons B and C will call them all a bunch of cretinous fuckwits and leave the thread. Person D is Sam Vimes who deserves a fucking medal at this stage.

Here here! The more I read this thread the more I admire Vimes incredible patience. I seriously don't know what we'll do if the treaty is shot down again. I mean, it really is a victory for petty nationalism and idiocy isn't it?