Lisbon 2: prepare to bend over and recieve ur destiny!

mikemac

well yes, both sides had voters hijacking Lisbon 1 for their own views on Irish political parties.
I never posted it was only the No side doing this

As I said, vote on the issues and ask if you don't understand it

arse..biscuits

humanji wrote: »

Ok people, I know this is going to fall on deaf ears, but 28% of the population voted no. And a portion of that admitted to not voting on what was actually in the treaty. How is following the will of an ill-informed minority democratic? Think about it. If nobody except for 2 people actually managed to vote last time, and they voted yes because they thought it was about ice-cream, would you honestly want to honour that vote?

Why not actually read the treaty (it's honestly not that hard, I managed it FFS, and I'm thick as pig shìt!) and deciding what's best for you? What's the worst that can happen? Sure if the treaty is really that bad for everyone, it'll be a no vote again. One day out of your life isn't going to make that much of a difference.

And if there had been a YES vote last time by ill-informed people would we be voting again? Hell no.

Ckal

micmclo wrote: »

well yes, both sides had voters hijacking Lisbon 1 for their own views on Irish political parties.
I never posted it was only the No side doing this

Oh, I know. I was just saying it, just in case others thought differently.

dresden8

niceirishfella wrote: »

And why do you have such interest in our discussions on this treaty debate from your UK base?

Because he wasn't allowed have a discussion or debate in his UK base so he has to use ours.

Keith186

walshb wrote: »

a certain way, just because the govt is being dictated to by the EU

Had some other countries had the vote, the feeling is that a lot would
also have voted NO!

There'll be plenty more dictating to the gov if they get the yes vote.

Hands up who wants bureaucrats in charge that aren't answerable to the public? That's what you'll get with a yes vote.

On the other hand they can't be worse than the shower that are in charge of us at the moment...

Darragh29

micmclo wrote: »

Long thread so maybe it was posted already.

Voting no to show your disgust with the government is ridiculous. Plus the main opposition parties campaigned for a Yes vote so you're achieving nothing.

Vote on the issues and if you don't understand the damn thing, then ask here or the boards EU forum or the referendum commission or anyone you want.

But if you want to kick the government then use the local elections and don't hijack this referendum

Someone can vote no for any reason or for no reason at all. That is the way voting works. For example, I can decide to take issue with your view here telling people to either vote yes or else stay in bed and I can decide to vote no as a protest against that view if I wish and that's my right...

Yes voters on the last occasion were probably responsible for more people voting no than anything else. They came across as ignorant, superior, BMW driving, Terenure living, idiots who just didn't want their little gravy train interfered with, telling anyone who was voting no that they should stay in bed and stay out of the debate as it was obviously above their level of intellect...

Biggins

What your going to get also is a lot of folk voting "NO" because they will realise that if Ireland votes again that way, the chances of Cowan staying in power after that will be extreamly slim.

I'm NOT saying thats the right thing to do but being honest, thats the way some minds will look at the situation.
I mention this because those that are sure the "Yes" this time will get their way, they better not place any money bets on it!

There's still a chance it could go either way...

dead air

Keith186 wrote: »

Hands up who wants bureaucrats in charge that aren't answerable to the public? That's what you'll get with a yes vote.

Can you explain how this would happen?

embee

In all honesty, I think that, if we are asked to vote again on the Lisbon Treaty I'll just abstain.

The people have said no. The EU aren't going to make sweeping changes to Lisbon because it may involve having to get it ratified again in all of the other member states. We've said no. Unless it changes hugely, what's the point in voting on it again? I know that Nice was turned around because of an initial low voter turnout, but that wasn't the case with Lisbon.

I just am not comfortable with being railroaded into voting yes because the current Government wants us too, so I will abstain.

Darragh29

Biggins wrote: »

What your going to get also is a lot of folk voting "NO" because they will realise that if Ireland votes again that way, the chances of Cowan staying in power after that will be extreamly slim.

I'm NOT saying thats the right thing to do but being honest, thats the way some minds will look at the situation.
I mention this because those that are sure the "Yes" this time will get their way, they better not place any money bets on it!

There's still a chance it could go either way...

Cowen won't be in power for the next referendum I reckon. He'll be lucky if he see's Valentines Day as Taoiseacht...

Darragh29

embee wrote: »

In all honesty, I think that, if we are asked to vote again on the Lisbon Treaty I'll just abstain.

The people have said no. The EU aren't going to make sweeping changes to Lisbon because it may involve having to get it ratified again in all of the other member states. We've said no. Unless it changes hugely, what's the point in voting on it again? I know that Nice was turned around because of an initial low voter turnout, but that wasn't the case with Lisbon.

I just am not comfortable with being railroaded into voting yes because the current Government wants us too, so I will abstain.

Well abstaining is just fawning off the decision to other people who will vote. I've never abstained for any election ever, one thing I always do is vote.

dead air

Darragh29 wrote: »

Yes voters on the last occasion were probably responsible for more people voting no than anything else. They came across as ignorant, superior, BMW driving, Terenure living, idiots who just didn't want their little gravy train interfered with, telling anyone who was voting no that they should stay in bed and stay out of the debate as it was obviously above their level of intellect...

That's ridiculous. This may be your personal view but can you really say the Irish people voted No for the sake of one-upmanship?

I believe, and I think most people would agree, that Irish people voted No for genuine fears over Irish neutrality, abortion, tax isssues and losing a commissioner.

ShooterSF

dead air wrote: »

That's ridiculous. This may be your personal view but can you really say the Irish people voted No for the sake of one-upmanship?

I believe, and I think most people would agree, that Irish people voted No for genuine fears over Irish neutrality, abortion, tax isssues and losing a commissioner.

The quote in question was OTT. But, on the other hand you unconsciously yourself play the "low intellect no voter" card he reffered. I didnt vote No over non issues that you listed, most of which had nothing to do with the treaty. I think a lot of other No voters didnt either.

Darragh29

dead air wrote: »

That's ridiculous. This may be your personal view but can you really say the Irish people voted No for the sake of one-upmanship?

I believe, and I think most people would agree, that Irish people voted No for genuine fears over Irish neutrality, abortion, tax isssues and losing a commissioner.

Yes but I also felt that yes voters on the radio and generally all over the media were making out that anyone who was voting no basically either didn't know what they were talking about or else were all left wing loony's. I was as educated on Lisbon as any yes voter, but it didn't sit right with me. The following comments:

“Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly … All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way.”
- Former French President V.Giscard D’Estaing, Le Monde, 14 June 2007.

That were associated with the yes side, made me extremely cynical of a treaty that it would appear, based on the above, was made inordinately complicated specifically so that it could not be specifically interpreted in any particular way.

The carry on from the yes side on the last occasion made me more determined to vote no and I have no problem admitting that. How dare any person tell me if I don't agree with them, then I have no business voting at all...

OPENROAD

dead air wrote: »

I believe, and I think most people would agree, that Irish people voted No for genuine fears over Irish neutrality, abortion, tax isssues and losing a commissioner.

I also believe people voted no because they were concerned by the expansion of the EU and influx of immigrants ( not my views/concern)

PrivateEye

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6abZudYWJ5k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aBaX9GPSaQ

The words 'epic' and 'fail' are coming to mind already to be honest...

dead air

ShooterSF wrote: »

The quote in question was OTT. But, on the other hand you unconsciously yourself play the "low intellect no voter" card he reffered. I didnt vote No over non issues that you listed, most of which had nothing to do with the treaty. I think a lot of other No voters didnt either.

I certainly don't mean to suggest that No voters were low intellect and I honestly do not believe that. Perhaps misguided, yes. Of course, the opposite is true, you have every right to think of me as misguided.

dead air

OPENROAD wrote: »

I also believe people voted no because they were concerned by the expansion of the EU and influx of immigrants ( not my views/concern)

Absolutely true.

imeddyhobbs

is there a poll here anywhere?

embee

Darragh29 wrote: »

Well abstaining is just fawning off the decision to other people who will vote. I've never abstained for any election ever, one thing I always do is vote.

I've always voted too, but if they push us into another referendum on the same issue, then I'll abstain. Its a personal decision, I can't imagine many people will, but it's my own choice. The people have said no. This isn't like Nice, where a poor turnout was turned around when we voted a second time. I read the Treaty before I voted, it isn't that I was ill-informed, and for the Government to turn around and tell us that the majority vote isn't acceptable smacks of pure arrogance.

OPENROAD

I can see Lisbon 2 being passed easily, not necessary due to anything new in/out of the treaty or guarantees rather because of the downturn in the economy and peoples view that it is better to have the EU on side with us.

Darragh29

embee wrote: »

I've always voted too, but if they push us into another referendum on the same issue, then I'll abstain. Its a personal decision, I can't imagine many people will, but it's my own choice. The people have said no. This isn't like Nice, where a poor turnout was turned around when we voted a second time. I read the Treaty before I voted, it isn't that I was ill-informed, and for the Government to turn around and tell us that the majority vote isn't acceptable smacks of pure arrogance.

So basically the government have managed to bully you out of voting! :rolleyes:

anonymous_joe

It's a pity voting isn't a legal requirement in this country, so that we could have viable results in referanda and votes.

It's a pity that a lot of people are going to vote no out of spite now. :pac:

dead air

Darragh29 wrote: »

Yes but I also felt that yes voters on the radio and generally all over the media were making out that anyone who was voting no basically either didn't know what they were talking about or else were all left wing loony's. I was as educated on Lisbon as any yes voter, but it didn't sit right with me. The following comments:

“Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly … All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way.”
- Former French President V.Giscard D’Estaing, Le Monde, 14 June 2007.

That were associated with the yes side, made me extremely cynical of a treaty that it would appear, based on the above, was made inordinately complicated specifically so that it could not be specifically interpreted in any particular way.

The carry on from the yes side on the last occasion made me more determined to vote no and I have no problem admitting that. How dare any person tell me if I don't agree with them, then I have no business voting at all...

I agree with you on some of that. There are definitely elements of the Yes campaigners that were very condenscending.

anonymous_joe

dead air wrote: »

I agree with you on some of that. There are definitely elements of the Yes campaigners that were very condensing.

Dyou mean condescending or that they were condensed...?

tedstriker

If anyone voted NO because they had fears about abortion, neutrality, size of the EU, immigration, tax or a commissioner issue then they didn't take the time to read any actual facts. Every single one of these "issues" were clarified with ease and a failure to understand them was a failure on the voters part not the government.

The NO campaign was led by 2 entities. Firstly, Sinn Fein whose only agenda is for a United Ireland and a stronger EU will make that harder to achieve. The second was Libertas who have more than a few question marks over their heads. Declan Ganley of Libertas is a british national who is CEO of a US military defense contract company. He is an extremely wealthy businessman and his agenda has very little to do with issues of abortion etc.

All that aside there is one underlying point that has to be stated. In 2007 the population of Ireland voted in a new government. These people were voted into parliament in order to run the country and the only way to get back into government was to do a good job. If you are unsure of what the Lisbon treaty was about then listen to the people who you just voted for AND the opposition also were in agreement with little exception.

If it is a complex issue, which it is, then stop being so lazy to not learn. Take time to understand the issues properly then make a choice. If that choice is YES or NO then that is great because at least you will understand what you are voting for.

Darragh29

dead air wrote: »

I agree with you on some of that. There are definitely elements of the Yes campaigners that were very condensing.

I get the feeling now, that the same people who were pushing everyone to vote yes on Lisbon, were the very same people who voted for FF last time round. There is a section of Irish society that I have come to dispise in recent years, the condensing, smug BMW class, wearing fur coats with no knickers, who look down their noses at everyone else, usually own a few "investment" properties that are now keeping them awake at night, and it was this gang that I got sick of listening to during the last Lisbon debate.

"Vote yes, vote yes, look, you don't need to understand what it means, we just need you to vote yes"!

Biggins

OPENROAD wrote: »

I can see Lisbon 2 being passed easily, not necessary due to anything new in/out of the treaty or guarantees rather because of the downturn in the economy and peoples view that it is better to have the EU on side with us.

...whereas others can see it being defeated if only

a. To bring down Cowan and his useless cronies
b. To show that they will not be bullied or silenced by other countries leaders
c. To stop the tide of more unelectable faceless bureaucrats
d. To stop losing out own right to govern ourselves fully
e. To stand up for others in countries that weren't even allowed a vote or choice
f. To slow down the rushing thru of a vote before the British government changes. The conservatives have already stated that if the treaty is not passed by the time they get to power, they WILL have a national vote on it. Thus another major reason why this is being forced upon us again so quick.

I'm sure there is many other reasons but each side always thinks theirs is going to win and is fighting on the right side.

It just boils down now to the dirty tactics that each side will either use or be accused to using.

---

I'd hate to see anyone abstaining their vote, that just giving into the bullies.
Why the hell should the bullies win? Frak that!
As much as its a pain that its being shoved down our throats again
- go and re-vote and tell one side or the other where to stick it!

Don't be bullied out of your democratic and constitutional right! :mad:

imeddyhobbs

anonymous_joe wrote: »

It's a pity voting isn't a legal requirement in this country, so that we could have viable results in referanda and votes. :

welcome to democracy

Darragh29

tedstriker wrote: »

...If it is a complex issue, which it is, then stop being so lazy to not learn. Take time to understand the issues properly then make a choice. If that choice is YES or NO then that is great because at least you will understand what you are voting for.

To insist that a voter stick exclusively to the subject matter is to underestimate the intelligence of a human being. There is nothing at all wrong with me fully supporting Lisbon, but deciding to give the government a kick in the nuts when I get into the ballot box on the day of the referendum, and voting no. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with this, if this is what I decide to do! As a voter, I am infallible. No decision I make can be wrong.